Hill Climbing/Sprinting, anyone with experience?
Discussion
I've spent some time today looking at the HSA website and TBH I'm more confused now than when I started.
There are a huge amount of different championships, all of which seem to have different entry requirements, some of them merging a number of classes into one and the amount of track time you get with some seems far greater than with others for a similar outlay?
Is it possible to just get the right license, join a local club and then picks and choose which events to enter all over the country based on the amount of likely track time or are you restricted by the the club you join, a specific championship and where you are based geographically?
As someone has mentioned above, with some of the events you seem to be only getting 2-3 minutes on track for a £100-150 outlay which from where I am sitting seems very restrictive indeed, especially when you are also forced to keep the car taxed, mot'd and insured for the road to comply with regulations at a substantial yearly cost when it's use as a road car will be severely limited.
Starting to look like a track day car with the occasional sprint/HC experience in whatever class they choose to throw it into might be a better option for bang per buck.
There are a huge amount of different championships, all of which seem to have different entry requirements, some of them merging a number of classes into one and the amount of track time you get with some seems far greater than with others for a similar outlay?
Is it possible to just get the right license, join a local club and then picks and choose which events to enter all over the country based on the amount of likely track time or are you restricted by the the club you join, a specific championship and where you are based geographically?
As someone has mentioned above, with some of the events you seem to be only getting 2-3 minutes on track for a £100-150 outlay which from where I am sitting seems very restrictive indeed, especially when you are also forced to keep the car taxed, mot'd and insured for the road to comply with regulations at a substantial yearly cost when it's use as a road car will be severely limited.
Starting to look like a track day car with the occasional sprint/HC experience in whatever class they choose to throw it into might be a better option for bang per buck.
Thurbs said:
I get "good value" from £385 for 30m Q + 40m race... + testing the day before + tyres + fuel + traveling + + + +
Good value and motorsport are not great bedfellows.
As with cycling, it never gets easier (or cheaper), you just go faster.
i know that;s always the case but In comparison for pure track time what you are doing is far better value. In one weekend you're seeing as much track time as a couple of seasons in sprinting as far as I can work out which would cost thousands in entry fee's, road going costs and travel. Sprinting/HC does seem to be a an expensive spectator day with a bit of driving thrown in?Good value and motorsport are not great bedfellows.
As with cycling, it never gets easier (or cheaper), you just go faster.
The only thing that puts me off circuit racing is the cost of and work involved in resolving regular shunts with other competitors?
df76 said:
If you can't afford racing (which I can't!), then a combo of a few speed events (I don't bother with a championship) for fun and some track days is quite a good compromise. Competing at speed events can be done with zero additional car costs, and I find it a fun day out. That said, I'm choosy on where I compete. Not sure I'd do an airfield event again..
As someone with very little track experience and no racing whatsoever I'm thinking of approaching it in exactly that way. Having spent some time looking through the various championships run by the 750MC and the kind of cost involved it's definitely something to build towards over a couple of years whilst gaining track on experience and attaining a NAT B license.
The 750MC Roadsport class looks particularly interesting with modifications being very open and cars classified by BHP/Ton rather than engine capacity.
Thurbs said:
It is interesting the comments about track days being boring.
I have never found this, but have always had a purpose...
- bed in tyres / brakes / engine
- change camber, tow setups
- find and adjust pressures
- try every corner with early entry, late apex
- try every corner with late entry, early apex
- try neutral entry, apex & exit
- try holding a gear
- try changing up and down
- simulate qualifying
- simulate a race
- and so on...
Nice 5 lap stints with a de-brief afterwards. Then lots of data & video analysis to refine and try again.
The thought of turning up to a sprint or climb having not done any of this would send shivers down my spine... how on earth can one be close to the limit with no previous knowledge of the track other than a walk up it the night before? A very different discipline and I can see how circuits would be boring in comparison.
Sure, you can just rock up and race on circuits (especially if you have driven there before) but you won’t be as fast as you could be, or at the front in any competitive field.
Totally agree with all of the above and to approach each outing as an opportunity to improve the car and standard of driving is exactly what I'll be looking to do. I have never found this, but have always had a purpose...
- bed in tyres / brakes / engine
- change camber, tow setups
- find and adjust pressures
- try every corner with early entry, late apex
- try every corner with late entry, early apex
- try neutral entry, apex & exit
- try holding a gear
- try changing up and down
- simulate qualifying
- simulate a race
- and so on...
Nice 5 lap stints with a de-brief afterwards. Then lots of data & video analysis to refine and try again.
The thought of turning up to a sprint or climb having not done any of this would send shivers down my spine... how on earth can one be close to the limit with no previous knowledge of the track other than a walk up it the night before? A very different discipline and I can see how circuits would be boring in comparison.
Sure, you can just rock up and race on circuits (especially if you have driven there before) but you won’t be as fast as you could be, or at the front in any competitive field.
Thurbs said:
Finally, OP you seem keen on RWD. I wouldn’t be, especially on unfamiliar tracks. Get it wrong with a FWD and you can save the car from crazy angles where as RWD you are in the wall before you know it. With 200bhp you are not going to get any real benefit other than bragging rights down the pub. I would go with a Clio 182 that someone has already done the work to and spent the money.
It's all about building up speed rather than diving in two footed though I suppose. I've never been one for FWD despite having driven what have supposedly been great examples of the layout (205 GTI, Focus RS, Clio 172) as the whole wheel in the air, scrabbling for traction,lift off oversteer and wrestling torque steering challenge isn't my idea of fun.The job of building up, testing and refining the car is a big part of the appeal to me and although it will work out more expensive is not something I'd want to avoid just so I can get on track quicker.
Edited by SWoll on Tuesday 18th April 13:03
df76 said:
SWoll said:
The 750MC Roadsport class looks particularly interesting with modifications being very open and cars classified by BHP/Ton rather than engine capacity.
There is a chance that I'll race next year, and this is one the favourite options. Sharing a car. Looks good.Thurbs said:
SWoll said:
It's all about building up speed rather than diving in two footed though I suppose. I've never been one for FWD despite having driven what have supposedly been great examples of the layout (205 GTI, Focus RS, Clio 172) as the whole wheel in the air, scrabbling for traction,lift off oversteer and wrestling torque steering challenge isn't my idea of fun.
If you drive a well sorted one with a proper set up and good tyres you will get none of this. Likewise I see many rwd cars (M3s etc) understear like cross channel ferrys.Here is a race where an RX8 beat me in a Clio...
https://youtu.be/ICQ2DkAOyJ4?list=PLmsJCCDm9ELbUeH...
Not helping my argument here am I?
Need to look at the RX-8 closely as the very poor MPG on track (<10) and issues with engine/oil temperatures due to the nature of the rotary design might prove problematic over a 45 minute race without significant and costly modifications.
I notice the 750Mc also run a 330i championship? It looks like I've gone full circle in this thread so far..
EDIT - Just watching the video. 1:30 looked interesting?
EDIT2 - That yellow BMW Compact.. What an absolute t
t. Any action taken by the stewards etc. after the race?Edited by SWoll on Tuesday 18th April 21:58
Edited by SWoll on Tuesday 18th April 22:48
df76 said:
I don't think you can really compare.. the cost of using a cheap road going comp car for a few clubman events is (in reality) going to be massively different from a season of a single make series that trots around the country.
I use my road car (£0 extra cost) vs a MX5 race car (£4k plus).
No trailer vs £1000 trailer (plus insurance and servicing)
My club membership and champ fees are a total of £30, I suspect that it's more for the 750MC and MX5 registration.
Entry fees are £75-£100, expect MX5 entries to be £300 plus.
It goes on..
There's some massive differences. When you work out the real race costs it's a minimum of £600 per weekend and that's really pushing it. A friend races in Combe saloons, drives it to the events and lives locally. That's about the cheapest way of doing it (new Combe Hot Hatch series has entry fees of £195). Sharing a car, such as in 750MC Roadsports is the next best was of managing the costs.
Whilst I know what you mean the cost of keeping a car in a road going state is in many cases a significant expense (£500-1000 a year in tax, insurance, MOT etc.) and also limits the modifications that can be made.I use my road car (£0 extra cost) vs a MX5 race car (£4k plus).
No trailer vs £1000 trailer (plus insurance and servicing)
My club membership and champ fees are a total of £30, I suspect that it's more for the 750MC and MX5 registration.
Entry fees are £75-£100, expect MX5 entries to be £300 plus.
It goes on..
There's some massive differences. When you work out the real race costs it's a minimum of £600 per weekend and that's really pushing it. A friend races in Combe saloons, drives it to the events and lives locally. That's about the cheapest way of doing it (new Combe Hot Hatch series has entry fees of £195). Sharing a car, such as in 750MC Roadsports is the next best was of managing the costs.
Our plan now, after much discussion and research, is to do the following.
2017
Buy car (RX8 still favourite)
Keep road legal for 6 months whilst building to trackday spec (suspension, brakes, tyres etc.)
Do a few track days and get plenty of tuition
Do a sprint/HC or two later in the year
2018
Take NAT B racing license.
Take car off the road and strip interior.
Purchase non running donor vehicle for bits in case of race damage.
Fit roll cage, racing seat, harness and other safety requirements.
More trackdays and tuition
Enter a couple of rounds of 750MC Roadsports in Class D and/or any other series we are eligible for.
2019
Further improvements to the car (performance)
Full season in Roadsports Class D or C dependent on bhp/tonne, possible Enduro series entry if car and drivers up to it.
Currently on the look out for the right car to use as the basis and have a list of all of the best mods/priority jobs after receiving a lot of very heloful advice from Liam Crilly who currently runs an RX8 in Roadsports/Enduro.
df76 said:
If you can find something with the bulk of the expensive work done, it would be a good plan. Was looking at a similar option, but with a civic ep3. Find a roadgoing one with lsd, coilovers and cage. Not too far away from a race car. Would be good fun developing it as you go.. you'll need to do a "build" thread!
The bonus with RX8's is they are so unloved as a road car nowadays due to engine compression issues and high running costs that a good cars are available for peanuts in comparison to something like the CTR EP3, E36 328i, 182 which would all cost considerably more for a car of the same quality. There are also lots being broken for parts due to engine fallure so gearboxes/diffs/calipers/body panels etc.are ridiculous prices and they are relatively easy to work on as the wankel engine itself is a simple concept and the suicide doors make interior access a breeze.Been through a budget and to buy a decent example and get it ready for the track, so 2 way adjust suspension, brake overhaul etc you are looking at £3-4k (I can do the work myself as have plenty of space and access to tools/skills as required)
To then race prepare would be an additional £2-3k of cage, seat and safety equipment to meet the regulations so overall a £6-7k budget, which I think is pretty reasonable, especially when shared between 2 drivers over a 1-2 year timescale.
Got our eyes on a few cars at the moment and not in any huge rush so taking my time to understand the pitfalls of the model and make as sure as possible we get a good one. Will definitely start a build thread both here and on the UK RX8ownersclub once the choice is made..
AdamIndy said:
Just to update, I did the members day at shelsley Walsh last Friday. It was epic fun! I went with a view of seeing if I enjoy it, if so then change the rollbar to be MSA compliant and maybe doing an event or 2 later in the year.
The main concern was seat time, I had 5 runs during the day which I guess is fairly typical of an actual competition day and to be honest, it was enough. After a couple of steady runs to learn which way it goes I got the hammer down a bit. I really enjoyed to fact I had to be absolutely "on it" from the offset. Cold T1R tyres, were umm.....interesting in a very light RWD car. I did however do a sub 38 second run with a fairly wild moment exiting the esses, which I'm told is pretty quick in the class my car is eligible for.
A nice relaxed atmosphere and nice people.
I can highly recommend you give it a go. I do understand it's not for everyone but I thoroughly enjoyed it! I just need someone to make me a compliant rollbar for sensible money!
Glad to hear you enjoyed it Andy, although I think your car is far more suited to the tight and twisty, point and squirt nature of HC than mine will likely be. The main concern was seat time, I had 5 runs during the day which I guess is fairly typical of an actual competition day and to be honest, it was enough. After a couple of steady runs to learn which way it goes I got the hammer down a bit. I really enjoyed to fact I had to be absolutely "on it" from the offset. Cold T1R tyres, were umm.....interesting in a very light RWD car. I did however do a sub 38 second run with a fairly wild moment exiting the esses, which I'm told is pretty quick in the class my car is eligible for.
A nice relaxed atmosphere and nice people.
I can highly recommend you give it a go. I do understand it's not for everyone but I thoroughly enjoyed it! I just need someone to make me a compliant rollbar for sensible money!
If I can get the car bought and ready for later on in the summer I'm still tempted to come along and have a go though. Should be a lot of fun.
carl_w said:
SWoll said:
The bonus with RX8's is they are so unloved as a road car nowadays due to engine compression issues and high running costs that a good cars are available for peanuts in comparison to something like the CTR EP3, E36 328i, 182 which would all cost considerably more for a car of the same quality. There are also lots being broken for parts due to engine fallure so gearboxes/diffs/calipers/body panels etc.are ridiculous prices and they are relatively easy to work on as the wankel engine itself is a simple concept and the suicide doors make interior access a breeze.
A way to go might be to buy a cheap one and have the engine rebuilt. At least then you're sure it's good.I'm not even keen on a car that's already been done as not sure I'd trust a rebuild I've not been involved myself and would still want a compression test completed before buying as cars with rebuilds tend to command top prices.
The other issue is that most engine warranties don't cover track or race use so would be pretty much useless to me anyway.
My preference is towards a well maintained car with regular oil/plug changes and a decent compression test result. I can then drive it before buying to check the clutch/gearbox/suspension and any other number of things are in decent shape, which wouldn't be possible with a non runner of course..
carl_w said:
SWoll said:
Yes, been looking at this as a possibility but a lot of the non runners look to be in a bit of a state all round so difficult finding a good one. Also, it's possible that the issue could be with the bearings/E-shaft etc. rather than just the seals so rebuild costs can quickly ramp up to £2k + making it poor value.
As you say, if it's in a bit of a state all round then it's a no-go. But I've seen them for sale for £500-£1000. £2000 rebuild and you've got something solid for £3k. It was after seeing Salesy's car that I started investigating this. Came ever so close to pulling the trigger but ended up sticking with the Saxo and modifying it for this year.
TBH, the man logic has taken over and really interested in a PZ model that is being sold locally for around £2K. Not had a rebuild but everything about it looks and sounds good and the addition of lightweight OZ wheels,Bilstein/Eibach suspension and a Prodrive exhaust are appealing both from a performance and cost standpoint.
Salesy said:
The PZ is the one to go for, in class A2 it is pretty much unbeatable and can even mix it up with the boys running list 1B tyres in class A4 even though its on list 1A's.
After sprinting this weekend in the Clio i am now contemplating selling my PZ. My head says do i really need it but my heart says i should keep it.
Out of interest Paul, what mods have you done on yours or are you still running with the standard PZ suspension? After sprinting this weekend in the Clio i am now contemplating selling my PZ. My head says do i really need it but my heart says i should keep it.
Salesy said:
The car is as it left the factory. Standard PZ suspension Bilstien/Eibach, OZ suprlight rims, Scorpian back box and all the other PZ extras.
The one thing i did straight after getting it was replace all discs and pads with standard Pagid from ECP. I then changed the fluid for Motul r300 high temp as after the brakes failing just before paddock hill bend doing 90+ wasn't fun.
I imagine that focused the mind? The one thing i did straight after getting it was replace all discs and pads with standard Pagid from ECP. I then changed the fluid for Motul r300 high temp as after the brakes failing just before paddock hill bend doing 90+ wasn't fun.
I had read that the PZ suspension was supposed to be fairly decent when pushing on, so good hear this confirmed. Might put the proposed suspension upgrade on hold for a while then whilst I get some track tuition and other tasks done.
Plan with whatever car i eventually get is very much like you and to immediately service the calipers and fit new braided hoses, new fluid and new discs/pads. Also on the 'must have' list is upgraded battery, starter, engine mounts and a SOHN adapter so I can run 2 stroke oil for the rotors and synthetic for the rest of the engine and try to keep that compression healthy.
Edited by SWoll on Monday 1st May 21:29
Will probably change the lines anyway as plan to strip the while braking system down for a service so might as well do them whilst I'm there.
What I like about the SOHN is that the rotors are getting 100% clean and fit for purpose oil from a dedicated reservoir rather than sharing oil from the sump with the rest of the engine, which should also reduce the frequency of full oil changes.
It's a funny one with engine power as in the 750MC car's are classed by BHP/Tonne at the flywheel rather than engine capacity so Class D is up to 160bhp/tonne, Class C up to 200bhp/tonne and so on.
Plan is to run the car pretty much stock initially and keep within boundaries of Class D where it will be most competitive. As they only rate at 165bhp/tonne when new, and are in reality lower than this + 10+ years old, it should be very achievable even with some weight loss.
Porting is obviously an option in the future but having seen the amount of work that needs to go in (bridge port, intake, full de-cat exhaust system, custom ECU tuning) for the amount of gain I'm not totally convinced as getting close to 200bhp/tonne will require some serious effort. I'm thinking perhaps the 180bhp/tonne for Class C Club Enduro would be more achievable with some additional weight loss and few tweaks.
FI far too much money and engines don't seem to last long without serious modification.
What I like about the SOHN is that the rotors are getting 100% clean and fit for purpose oil from a dedicated reservoir rather than sharing oil from the sump with the rest of the engine, which should also reduce the frequency of full oil changes.
It's a funny one with engine power as in the 750MC car's are classed by BHP/Tonne at the flywheel rather than engine capacity so Class D is up to 160bhp/tonne, Class C up to 200bhp/tonne and so on.
Plan is to run the car pretty much stock initially and keep within boundaries of Class D where it will be most competitive. As they only rate at 165bhp/tonne when new, and are in reality lower than this + 10+ years old, it should be very achievable even with some weight loss.
Porting is obviously an option in the future but having seen the amount of work that needs to go in (bridge port, intake, full de-cat exhaust system, custom ECU tuning) for the amount of gain I'm not totally convinced as getting close to 200bhp/tonne will require some serious effort. I'm thinking perhaps the 180bhp/tonne for Class C Club Enduro would be more achievable with some additional weight loss and few tweaks.
FI far too much money and engines don't seem to last long without serious modification.
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