Why can’t we have rally cars like this anymore
Discussion
chunder27 said:
WRC was a good idea initially, and there was a boom in the late 90's early 00's, Skoda, SEAT, Mitsu, Ford, Toyota, Peugeot, Subaru. That's a lot of cars.
A lot of cars - and of course the inevitable happened - Peugeot, then Citroen upped the spending - others couldn't match it, weren't competitive - and pulled the plug. Alex Langheck said:
chunder27 said:
WRC was a good idea initially, and there was a boom in the late 90's early 00's, Skoda, SEAT, Mitsu, Ford, Toyota, Peugeot, Subaru. That's a lot of cars.
A lot of cars - and of course the inevitable happened - Peugeot, then Citroen upped the spending - others couldn't match it, weren't competitive - and pulled the plug. 
That pair (same company) have done the same for many years, and across many formulae. Along the way, their compatriots at Michelin have been complicit throughout. Look at the farce that they have reduced the WTCC to in recent years, with a budget to run the Citreon team that was probably close to the total amount for the entire rest of the grid.
With Ogier at the wheel, Wilson at the helm, and a brilliant drive by Evans with support from DMack, M-Sport Ford have pulled off a relative giant killing exercise this year. Fair play to them!!!
bloomen said:
The only thing that Impreza shares with the road version is probably the shape and the door cards.
I suggest that you maybe have a much closer look at it. I’m not saying it isn’t significantly modified. But it’s clearly a production car that has been altered. Rather than being bespokely purpose built from the ground up. Ie it’s proper production 4, yes 4 door bodyshell made from steel. Just stripped with a cage. The sort of thing you really could build yourself.
300bhp/ton said:
I suggest that you maybe have a much closer look at it. I’m not saying it isn’t significantly modified. But it’s clearly a production car that has been altered. Rather than being bespokely purpose built from the ground up.
Ie it’s proper production 4, yes 4 door bodyshell made from steel. Just stripped with a cage. The sort of thing you really could build yourself.
They would get a bare bones shell, probably in pieces, from Japan and that's pretty much the last thing a Subaru production line will have to do with it. Every inch of the shell will be pored over, seam welded, multi point caged. The glass will be thinner. Ie it’s proper production 4, yes 4 door bodyshell made from steel. Just stripped with a cage. The sort of thing you really could build yourself.
Every single nut, bolt and washer will be custom made. Clutches will have been 10-20 grand back in the day, suspension tens of thousands per corner, transmissions nudging hundreds of thousands. Intakes will be carbon fibre.
Group A defines the dimensions and basic spec of certain parts and that's it. Nothing could be retrofitted to a group N car, let alone a road car. The entire thing is about as bespoke as anything can get even if it is outwardly recognisable.
300bhp/ton said:
I suggest that you maybe have a much closer look at it. I’m not saying it isn’t significantly modified. But it’s clearly a production car that has been altered. Rather than being bespokely purpose built from the ground up.
Ie it’s proper production 4, yes 4 door bodyshell made from steel. Just stripped with a cage. The sort of thing you really could build yourself.
See the above post. You’re really not comprehending the difference between Grp.A and Grp.N. Ie it’s proper production 4, yes 4 door bodyshell made from steel. Just stripped with a cage. The sort of thing you really could build yourself.
bloomen said:
They would get a bare bones shell, probably in pieces, from Japan and that's pretty much the last thing a Subaru production line will have to do with it. Every inch of the shell will be pored over, seam welded, multi point caged. The glass will be thinner.
Every single nut, bolt and washer will be custom made. Clutches will have been 10-20 grand back in the day, suspension tens of thousands per corner, transmissions nudging hundreds of thousands. Intakes will be carbon fibre.
Group A defines the dimensions and basic spec of certain parts and that's it. Nothing could be retrofitted to a group N car, let alone a road car. The entire thing is about as bespoke as anything can get even if it is outwardly recognisable.
Really. So You are claiming thisEvery single nut, bolt and washer will be custom made. Clutches will have been 10-20 grand back in the day, suspension tens of thousands per corner, transmissions nudging hundreds of thousands. Intakes will be carbon fibre.
Group A defines the dimensions and basic spec of certain parts and that's it. Nothing could be retrofitted to a group N car, let alone a road car. The entire thing is about as bespoke as anything can get even if it is outwardly recognisable.
Is no more bespoke and bears the same amount of linkage to the production variant as the Impreza does in my op.
That really is a Bold claim to make!!!
bloomen said:
300bhp/ton said:
I suggest that you maybe have a much closer look at it. I’m not saying it isn’t significantly modified. But it’s clearly a production car that has been altered. Rather than being bespokely purpose built from the ground up.
Ie it’s proper production 4, yes 4 door bodyshell made from steel. Just stripped with a cage. The sort of thing you really could build yourself.
They would get a bare bones shell, probably in pieces, from Japan and that's pretty much the last thing a Subaru production line will have to do with it. Every inch of the shell will be pored over, seam welded, multi point caged. The glass will be thinner. Ie it’s proper production 4, yes 4 door bodyshell made from steel. Just stripped with a cage. The sort of thing you really could build yourself.
Every single nut, bolt and washer will be custom made. Clutches will have been 10-20 grand back in the day, suspension tens of thousands per corner, transmissions nudging hundreds of thousands. Intakes will be carbon fibre.
Group A defines the dimensions and basic spec of certain parts and that's it. Nothing could be retrofitted to a group N car, let alone a road car. The entire thing is about as bespoke as anything can get even if it is outwardly recognisable.
WRC cars permitted much more extensive re-engineering of shells and floorpans that remove the costly (for the manufacturer) need for homologation road going examples of the cars, and enabled a car to be built up from a FWD family shopping trolley into an AWD monster. There were still homologation requirements for the base car, such as body style (four seat production car) and overall dimensions ...... the "Jimmy Hill" bumper Peugeot 206 which came to Britain was Peugeots way of using the much smaller base car to fight against Fords Focus, and the Japanese offerings.
For me, the best part about Group A that's missing today is the limits on suspension travel and drivetrain complexity when compared to a WRC car. Watch a video of McRae hustling the GrpA Impreza compared to todays "magic carpet ride" WRC cars that are all but impervious to anything but the worst bumps
300bhp/ton said:
Really. So You are claiming this
Is no more bespoke and bears the same amount of linkage to the production variant as the Impreza does in my op.
That really is a Bold claim to make!!!
Silhouette and dimensions of certain parts aside, yes.Is no more bespoke and bears the same amount of linkage to the production variant as the Impreza does in my op.
That really is a Bold claim to make!!!
A group A clutch, gearbox, ECU, diffs, loom, braking, suspension and engine bears just as little resemblance to a road version as the car pictured. The only thing they'd have in common is physical dimensions some of the time.
Edited by bloomen on Monday 30th October 16:49
DanielSan said:
See the above post. You’re really not comprehending the difference between Grp.A and Grp.N.
????Why are you taking Group N??? I have not been and that was never the point of the thread. And for reference I understand the difference between them perfectly well thank you very much.
The point was really really simple.
At one point in history. A top level rally car was essentially a production car that had met the safety aspects. Lightened and then used beefed up versions of the standard components such as engine/gearbox.
It was not a purpose built machine from the ground up sharing exactly no parts or commonality with the production car it was meant to be prepresenting.
This was true of all the Grp A cars from the earlier SD1 and Pug 205’s thru to the late Evos before the switch to WRC spec. And it was equally true in the pre Group A days when something like a TR7, Escort or Ascona were the main vehicles.
bloomen said:
300bhp/ton said:
Really. So You are claiming this
Is no more bespoke and bears the same amount of linkage to the production variant as the Impreza does in my op.
That really is a Bold claim to make!!!
Silhouette and dimensions of certain parts aside, yes.Is no more bespoke and bears the same amount of linkage to the production variant as the Impreza does in my op.
That really is a Bold claim to make!!!
A group A clutch, gearbox, ECU, diffs, loom, braking, suspension and engine bears just as little resemblance to a road version as the car pictured. The only thing they'd have in common is physical dimensions some of the time.
Edited by bloomen on Monday 30th October 16:49
For instance the McRae car in my op has a regular manual gearbox. Ok the ratios might not be the same as most road going production ones. And it might have some additional strengthening. But it is essentially the same sort of thing you could buy and drive yourself.
It is not a sequential box like you’d get in a WRC car.
This means the clutch is also very ordinary. Just likely more aggressive. But it’s still a regular clutch mechanism.
Same with the diffs. They are not computer controlled, they are just diffs. Probably TorSon based if memory serves.
300bhp/ton said:
Again. You really ought to go and have a look in person at he car in my op. I think you are probably confusing WRC spec cars with Grp A.
For instance the McRae car in my op has a regular manual gearbox. Ok the ratios might not be the same as most road going production ones. And it might have some additional strengthening. But it is essentially the same sort of thing you could buy and drive yourself.
It is not a sequential box like you’d get in a WRC car.
This means the clutch is also very ordinary. Just likely more aggressive. But it’s still a regular clutch mechanism.
Same with the diffs. They are not computer controlled, they are just diffs. Probably TorSon based if memory serves.
The gearbox pattern doesn't matter. Even if it's H pattern it'll be a straight cut dog box made of unobtanium as would the diffs. The clutch would have to withstand left foot braking, clutchless gear changes and flat out starts. For instance the McRae car in my op has a regular manual gearbox. Ok the ratios might not be the same as most road going production ones. And it might have some additional strengthening. But it is essentially the same sort of thing you could buy and drive yourself.
It is not a sequential box like you’d get in a WRC car.
This means the clutch is also very ordinary. Just likely more aggressive. But it’s still a regular clutch mechanism.
Same with the diffs. They are not computer controlled, they are just diffs. Probably TorSon based if memory serves.
This is world class competition with hundreds of millions of investment and prestige at stake. The parts will be exactingly made in laboratories by specialists such as Xtrac, not whipped off the shelf of the nearest dealer.
bloomen said:
300bhp/ton said:
At one point in history. A top level rally car was essentially a production car that had met the safety aspects. Lightened and then used beefed up versions of the standard components such as engine/gearbox.
I would say that phase ended during the 1960s. So much so that it really isn’t that hard to build one today to the same or even better spec. Grp A Impreza’s like the one I my op were also of a similar ilk. While any WRC is not.
Even without considering specific parts (like some of the STi Type RA Imprezas being built with closed-deck block engines because it was a stronger base for competition), the fundamental architecture of the car is recognisably similar in a way that isn't the case for WRC cars.
Production, Group N and Group A Imprezas (and Legacies before that) share variants of the same 2.0 turbo boxer engine, in the same place, with the same layout of 4wd system (even though specific parts obviously differ).
Compare that to (for example) a Peugeot 206 where the hottest production version was 1.8? NA Fwd and the WRC car was 2.0 turbo 4wd with computerised active diffs.
IIRC letting manufacturers change the engine position from the production car was one of the things that made Subaru less competitive in later years, as the longitudinal boxer layout didn't lend itself to moving the engine rearwards and lower the way other manufacturers could with transverse I4 engines (despite being arguably better than the factory layouts of the other cars).
Production, Group N and Group A Imprezas (and Legacies before that) share variants of the same 2.0 turbo boxer engine, in the same place, with the same layout of 4wd system (even though specific parts obviously differ).
Compare that to (for example) a Peugeot 206 where the hottest production version was 1.8? NA Fwd and the WRC car was 2.0 turbo 4wd with computerised active diffs.
IIRC letting manufacturers change the engine position from the production car was one of the things that made Subaru less competitive in later years, as the longitudinal boxer layout didn't lend itself to moving the engine rearwards and lower the way other manufacturers could with transverse I4 engines (despite being arguably better than the factory layouts of the other cars).
Edited by GravelBen on Tuesday 31st October 02:10
Now you see Ben. I find myself agreeing with everything you’ve said there.
I recently visited Pro Drive for a tour. Which is where the Impreza pic came from. There really were some awesome cars there. But if I’m brutally honest. This was my favourite one:
And for exactly the reasons of it being far more ‘real’ to the production models.
And I’m not saying today’s drivers are any less talented. But modern WRC cars are just too capable and in many ways too safe. There is no real risk. And managaing that risk was part of the expertise required for past rally drivers. To get something like this Legacy or even McRae’s Impreza to dance on a rally stage with a traditional manual gearbox. Required quite a different set of skills to the modern sequential box cars with active everything.
I recently visited Pro Drive for a tour. Which is where the Impreza pic came from. There really were some awesome cars there. But if I’m brutally honest. This was my favourite one:
And for exactly the reasons of it being far more ‘real’ to the production models.
And I’m not saying today’s drivers are any less talented. But modern WRC cars are just too capable and in many ways too safe. There is no real risk. And managaing that risk was part of the expertise required for past rally drivers. To get something like this Legacy or even McRae’s Impreza to dance on a rally stage with a traditional manual gearbox. Required quite a different set of skills to the modern sequential box cars with active everything.
bloomen said:
The gearbox pattern doesn't matter. Even if it's H pattern it'll be a straight cut dog box made of unobtanium as would the diffs. The clutch would have to withstand left foot braking, clutchless gear changes and flat out starts.
This is world class competition with hundreds of millions of investment and prestige at stake. The parts will be exactingly made in laboratories by specialists such as Xtrac, not whipped off the shelf of the nearest dealer.
Yet they are all bolt on or bolt in parts. For the most part. This is world class competition with hundreds of millions of investment and prestige at stake. The parts will be exactingly made in laboratories by specialists such as Xtrac, not whipped off the shelf of the nearest dealer.
Ie you could pretty much wheel in any Impreza of the era and bolt those bits to it.
This simply isn’t the case with a WRC car.
otolith said:
For me, rallying ceased to be interesting when the cars moved away from evolved versions of something you could buy in the showroom. That might seem inconsistent with following F1, but at least those don’t pretend to look like road cars.
For me, it is the opposite. I find the cars far better now than those very average cars of the mid 90s. My favourite cars lately were the Focus and C4. Something great about them!300bhp/ton said:
Yet they are all bolt on or bolt in parts. For the most part.
Ie you could pretty much wheel in any Impreza of the era and bolt those bits to it.
This simply isn’t the case with a WRC car.
Just bolt those bits to it? Ok then go get a classic Impreza add the same suspension and 18 inch wheels then hammer it down a road. Just bolting the bits on as you claim would result in 18 inch wheels knocking the sIe you could pretty much wheel in any Impreza of the era and bolt those bits to it.
This simply isn’t the case with a WRC car.
t out of the arches. To get those wheels and still maintain a decent level of travel required a lot of work to reshape the arches all round. And that’s just one element of the car...
They make look identical but it’s like claiming a Mondeo Supertourer can be built by just bolting bits onto a normal Mondeo
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