Why can’t we have rally cars like this anymore
Discussion
Interesting subject, the point being that Group A looked like something you could buy in the showroom & you could! Plenty of rally reps were sold in the day because of that reason. The Prodrive type built cars took the cars to another level (within the rules though) Just...
I used to own a few & the little Mazda 323 GT-R was one of the Group A Homologated cars, Group A had various design limits eg for larger wheels, longer travel etc to match the spec of the day. http://tech-racingcars.wikidot.com/mazda-323-bg8-g...
I used to own a few & the little Mazda 323 GT-R was one of the Group A Homologated cars, Group A had various design limits eg for larger wheels, longer travel etc to match the spec of the day. http://tech-racingcars.wikidot.com/mazda-323-bg8-g...
300bhp/ton said:
Yet they are all bolt on or bolt in parts. For the most part.
Ie you could pretty much wheel in any Impreza of the era and bolt those bits to it.
This simply isn’t the case with a WRC car.
How would you go around bolting in a fully active pneumatic competition transmission into your local farmer's runaround?Ie you could pretty much wheel in any Impreza of the era and bolt those bits to it.
This simply isn’t the case with a WRC car.
bloomen said:
300bhp/ton said:
Yet they are all bolt on or bolt in parts. For the most part.
Ie you could pretty much wheel in any Impreza of the era and bolt those bits to it.
This simply isn’t the case with a WRC car.
How would you go around bolting in a fully active pneumatic competition transmission into your local farmer's runaround?Ie you could pretty much wheel in any Impreza of the era and bolt those bits to it.
This simply isn’t the case with a WRC car.
That’s is my entire point. The Grp A cars had normal manual gearboxes!!!!!! You are mixing up WRC and Grp A.
DanielSan said:
Just bolt those bits to it? Ok then go get a classic Impreza add the same suspension and 18 inch wheels then hammer it down a road. Just bolting the bits on as you claim would result in 18 inch wheels knocking the s
t out of the arches.
To get those wheels and still maintain a decent level of travel required a lot of work to reshape the arches all round. And that’s just one element of the car...
They make look identical but it’s like claiming a Mondeo Supertourer can be built by just bolting bits onto a normal Mondeo
You seem to be denying this basic truth:t out of the arches. To get those wheels and still maintain a decent level of travel required a lot of work to reshape the arches all round. And that’s just one element of the car...
They make look identical but it’s like claiming a Mondeo Supertourer can be built by just bolting bits onto a normal Mondeo
otolith said:
For me, rallying ceased to be interesting when the cars moved away from evolved versions of something you could buy in the showroom.
Why?300bhp/ton said:
Seriously are you not READING the posts???
That’s is my entire point. The Grp A cars had normal manual gearboxes!!!!!! You are mixing up WRC and Grp A.
They did not. That’s is my entire point. The Grp A cars had normal manual gearboxes!!!!!! You are mixing up WRC and Grp A.
Observe the line from here
http://www.impreza555.com/specs.htm
SUBARU IMPREZA 555 GROUP A TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS
TRANSMISSION
Prodrive 6 speed semi-auto pneumatic paddle-shift + regular H pattern
Front diff: Active
Centre diff: Active
Rear diff: Mechanical/locked
Clutch: AP carbon
That transmission would've cost between £100-200,000 alone.
The only mechanical difference between group A cars and early WRC cars would've been the shell where they had freer reign with suspension pickup points, engine and gearbox mounts and aero.
Mechanically it was already heading towards a free for all. WRC cars had less power than early GP A cars. The ST 185 Toyotas and Integrale Evos were making way over 400 bhp.
The 97 WRC Subaru had an H pattern box too. That doesn't mean it was ripped out of a road car.
Selling old rally cars used to be my business and I know what goes into them.
Earlier Group A stuff certainly was simpler, especially the 80s, but by the Impreza phase it was already a techno arms race.
WRC was introduced as a cost saving measure. Most manufacturers lost tens of millions on the road cars and few had the inclination to build 5000 specials to go compete.
Oh dear.
People do get rather upset over nothing, bless em.
Makinen drove Group A Lancers for years in the WRC category, still using one in 2000, had a sequential gearshift. Mitsi did not want WRC and they were latecomers to it with the 7 variant and then the abysmal Lancer WRC.
The very last Escort Cosworths ran sequential gears too.
The early WRC Impreza's used H pattern, as their experiment with semi auto was flawed so they left it until about 99 before they really pushed semi auto.
The guy above is right, once Toyota introduced hydraulics in the early 90's Group A was largely the same as Group B in terms of development and costs, just with tighter restrictions. Electric diffs, huge ECU power bespoke body shell prep, engines built by race engine builders, unique suspensions with specific engineers for each driver.
Manufacturers always find a way to spend more.
People do get rather upset over nothing, bless em.
Makinen drove Group A Lancers for years in the WRC category, still using one in 2000, had a sequential gearshift. Mitsi did not want WRC and they were latecomers to it with the 7 variant and then the abysmal Lancer WRC.
The very last Escort Cosworths ran sequential gears too.
The early WRC Impreza's used H pattern, as their experiment with semi auto was flawed so they left it until about 99 before they really pushed semi auto.
The guy above is right, once Toyota introduced hydraulics in the early 90's Group A was largely the same as Group B in terms of development and costs, just with tighter restrictions. Electric diffs, huge ECU power bespoke body shell prep, engines built by race engine builders, unique suspensions with specific engineers for each driver.
Manufacturers always find a way to spend more.
Edited by chunder27 on Tuesday 31st October 12:17
300bhp/ton said:
Why?
That’s an opinion not a truth, using no basis of evidence whatsoever you’ve claimed a Grp.A car could be built with bolt on parts. And despite the post just above you’ll continue to deny that it just isn’t the case. Possibly just before you suggest a 69 Camaro would make a far better and faster rally car than today’s tiny 1.6 turbo engined shopping carsbloomen said:
They did not.
Observe the line from here
http://www.impreza555.com/specs.htm
SUBARU IMPREZA 555 GROUP A TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS
TRANSMISSION
Prodrive 6 speed semi-auto pneumatic paddle-shift + regular H pattern
Front diff: Active
Centre diff: Active
Rear diff: Mechanical/locked
Clutch: AP carbon
That transmission would've cost between £100-200,000 alone.
The only mechanical difference between group A cars and early WRC cars would've been the shell where they had freer reign with suspension pickup points, engine and gearbox mounts and aero.
Mechanically it was already heading towards a free for all. WRC cars had less power than early GP A cars. The ST 185 Toyotas and Integrale Evos were making way over 400 bhp.
The 97 WRC Subaru had an H pattern box too. That doesn't mean it was ripped out of a road car.
Selling old rally cars used to be my business and I know what goes into them.
Earlier Group A stuff certainly was simpler, especially the 80s, but by the Impreza phase it was already a techno arms race.
WRC was introduced as a cost saving measure. Most manufacturers lost tens of millions on the road cars and few had the inclination to build 5000 specials to go compete.
My mistake. Had forgotten the late Grp A cars had got these. Was thinking of the Pug 206 which was a WRC spec car. Observe the line from here
http://www.impreza555.com/specs.htm
SUBARU IMPREZA 555 GROUP A TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS
TRANSMISSION
Prodrive 6 speed semi-auto pneumatic paddle-shift + regular H pattern
Front diff: Active
Centre diff: Active
Rear diff: Mechanical/locked
Clutch: AP carbon
That transmission would've cost between £100-200,000 alone.
The only mechanical difference between group A cars and early WRC cars would've been the shell where they had freer reign with suspension pickup points, engine and gearbox mounts and aero.
Mechanically it was already heading towards a free for all. WRC cars had less power than early GP A cars. The ST 185 Toyotas and Integrale Evos were making way over 400 bhp.
The 97 WRC Subaru had an H pattern box too. That doesn't mean it was ripped out of a road car.
Selling old rally cars used to be my business and I know what goes into them.
Earlier Group A stuff certainly was simpler, especially the 80s, but by the Impreza phase it was already a techno arms race.
WRC was introduced as a cost saving measure. Most manufacturers lost tens of millions on the road cars and few had the inclination to build 5000 specials to go compete.
However in my defence the car I posted about did not have this type of gearbox. It has a normal manual H box. Which was really rather my point.
300bhp/ton said:
My mistake. Had forgotten the late Grp A cars had got these. Was thinking of the Pug 206 which was a WRC spec car.
However in my defence the car I posted about did not have this type of gearbox. It has a normal manual H box. Which was really rather my point.
The Prodrive Legacy box was manual and H pattern indeed. It's still not in any conceivable way normal. It's still 100% bespoke and hand made by specialists. However in my defence the car I posted about did not have this type of gearbox. It has a normal manual H box. Which was really rather my point.
Check this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUaOVgAv4VA
Check the quality of the components. Check the price tag at the end. £180,000 in 1990 is £410,000 today.
bloomen said:
300bhp/ton said:
At one point in history. A top level rally car was essentially a production car that had met the safety aspects. Lightened and then used beefed up versions of the standard components such as engine/gearbox.
I would say that phase ended during the 1960s. Sorry, 300bhp/ton, but you are way off thinking even the 70's Group 2 and then Group 4 stuff, was that closely related to their production equivilent, let alone the later Group A stuff you cite which was waaaaaaay more different.
Group A Legacy, Impreza 555 and the '97 WRC car all used the same Prodrive Hewland 6 speed dog box. The '99 and P2000 cars used the same 'box but with different angles on synchro hubs/baulk rings to enable the superfast changes allowable with the automated shift systems.
The gearbox/bellhousing bolt pattern will mate up with the standard Impreza road car block. The problem would be mounting the AP triple plate AP carbon clutch to the standard flywheel
The gearbox mounting crossmember is totally different :
As can be seen here, the 'box is solidly mounted and the gearbox mounting crossmember also provides the rear mounting point for the sump guard.
The Group A Impreza 555 was shockingly close to the '97 WRC car in it's spec The WRC engine car used a different firing order (to enable it to rev higher, more reliably) and to provide better power and a wider power band. Hence the WRC car lost the usual flat four warble so beloved of Impreza road car owners with their baseball caps on back to front
The WRC car went wide track (much to McRae's annoyance on the loose events, as it stopped him from using the ruts left by drivers running before him on the road) he got into verbal fisticuffs with David Lapworth and DR over this, in the end they agreed to let him run the car in Group A/narrow track width spec on loose events, but the wide track was a massive benefit on tarmac events, as was the vastly improved suspension travel on the WRC car.
The gearbox/bellhousing bolt pattern will mate up with the standard Impreza road car block. The problem would be mounting the AP triple plate AP carbon clutch to the standard flywheel
The gearbox mounting crossmember is totally different :
As can be seen here, the 'box is solidly mounted and the gearbox mounting crossmember also provides the rear mounting point for the sump guard.
The Group A Impreza 555 was shockingly close to the '97 WRC car in it's spec The WRC engine car used a different firing order (to enable it to rev higher, more reliably) and to provide better power and a wider power band. Hence the WRC car lost the usual flat four warble so beloved of Impreza road car owners with their baseball caps on back to front
The WRC car went wide track (much to McRae's annoyance on the loose events, as it stopped him from using the ruts left by drivers running before him on the road) he got into verbal fisticuffs with David Lapworth and DR over this, in the end they agreed to let him run the car in Group A/narrow track width spec on loose events, but the wide track was a massive benefit on tarmac events, as was the vastly improved suspension travel on the WRC car.
Edited by Slippydiff on Wednesday 1st November 09:25
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