Historic Masters - Brands this weekend

[Top Banana]

DaveGoddard said:

Just been reading the results and I wish I'd been able to go solely for the Youngtimer GT/Touring race. Masive Yank tanks, Porsches, Lotuses and more...on the same grid as a Volvo 360 and a pair of bloody Trabants! A surely completely unique sight.

It truly was one of the most crazy grids I have seen in a long time....at one end the Trabants with a screaming 600cc two-stroke, and at the other extreme a 9.1 litre Dodge Challenger...

[Derek Smith]

Top Banana said:

DaveGoddard said:

Just been reading the results and I wish I'd been able to go solely for the Youngtimer GT/Touring race. Masive Yank tanks, Porsches, Lotuses and more...on the same grid as a Volvo 360 and a pair of bloody Trabants! A surely completely unique sight.

It truly was one of the most crazy grids I have seen in a long time....at one end the Trabants with a screaming 600cc two-stroke, and at the other extreme a 9.1 litre Dodge Challenger...

Not for the faint of heart:

https://youtu.be/wqO2756YdOk

It took Paddock flat. Not many other drivers managed that.

[_Marvin]

Enjoyed Sunday's racing and the surprisingly good weather. I thought that the GP loop changes were generally overblown, but am a bit saddened by the loss of spectating at Stirlings. Whilst the old system there wasn't safe I think that with a bit more cash spent spectating could easily have been preserved.

Still one of the best tracks in the country for action, and I'm just glad the layout itself hasn't been touched.

Anyway, the racing was generally good, and whilst there were a number of safety cars, the interventions were generally short enough not to be bothersome. Particularly enjoyed seeing the Endurance Legends, which I hope becomes a great success (to bolster the grid size), especially the Judd V10 powered Oreca/Dallara. F1 always great to see, but as is so often the case, the highlight of the day in terms of actual racing was the Masters Pre-66 Touring Cars which are always great to watch, both individually (every car sideways at Clark curve for instance), and as an overall race.

[utgjon]

We went on Sunday and thoroughly enjoyed the day.

Although my dad and uncle used to watch these cars at Brands back in the day... previously we've only been to goodwood for 'classic' racing, and it was refreshing to see the really quick stuff actually racing rather than being part of a 'high speed demo'.

Highlights of the day were:

- The F1 cars for the noise! I timed the lead car lapping at about 1:22, that can't be far off what they were doing in the day?

- The racing in the pre-66 cars between the two Lotus Cortinas was fantastic.

- The endurance cars, with the V10 engined car (did i mention the noise?) involved in a battle with a car 10 years it's senior!


Will be going back next year, for sure.

[snowen250]

chunder27 said:

I would imagine this might be Brands centric, they are utterly cacking themselves about another SEAT incident, so are probably doing everything they can to prevent any incidents.

To the detriment now of drivers, aswell as spectators after the pathetic fencing and preventing of viewing at large areas.

This is health and safety gone mad, if you cant bloody race properly, whats the point of even going there, other tracks manage it fine worldwide.

As far as I am aware the calling of safety cars etc is down to the officials, provided by the club racing at the event? Be it BRSCC, BARC, 750MC (who don't use them for 90% of races) etc. Not the circuit itself.

I know you have an issue with Brands now they put fencing up, but I don't think this one is quite the fault of Mr. Palmer/MSV

Happy to be corrected by someone in Orange who doubtless knows more than me however.

Thanks to those who shared the images, I sadly missed this event for the first time in four years due to a wedding. Back for TCR this weekend though!

[n3il123]

snowen250 said:

As far as I am aware the calling of safety cars etc is down to the officials, provided by the club racing at the event? Be it BRSCC, BARC, 750MC (who don't use them for 90% of races) etc. Not the circuit itself.

I know you have an issue with Brands now they put fencing up, but I don't think this one is quite the fault of Mr. Palmer/MSV

Happy to be corrected by someone in Orange who doubtless knows more than me however.

Thanks to those who shared the images, I sadly missed this event for the first time in four years due to a wedding. Back for TCR this weekend though!

That's absolutely true, the circuit doesn't care really if they stop it, send a safety car or a guy with a national flag walking along in front. The truth is that the timetables are so tight now that unless it is really bad there just isn't the time available to recover and then to reform on the grid and restart the race. All that happens with a series of red flags is that races start to get shortened/ dropped to accommodate.

Double waved yellows is another thing altogether which has been discussed many times before.

[Derek Smith]

utgjon said:

We went on Sunday and thoroughly enjoyed the day.

Although my dad and uncle used to watch these cars at Brands back in the day... previously we've only been to goodwood for 'classic' racing, and it was refreshing to see the really quick stuff actually racing rather than being part of a 'high speed demo'.

Highlights of the day were:

- The F1 cars for the noise! I timed the lead car lapping at about 1:22, that can't be far off what they were doing in the day?

- The racing in the pre-66 cars between the two Lotus Cortinas was fantastic.

- The endurance cars, with the V10 engined car (did i mention the noise?) involved in a battle with a car 10 years it's senior!


Will be going back next year, for sure.

Don't forget the testing day, about six weeks beforehand. It's free, it is just as loud, and you can wander around the pits.

[Chris Sideways]

Derek Smith said:

Don't forget the testing day, about six weeks beforehand. It's free, it is just as loud, and you can wander around the pits.

I seem to remember Mansell doing something like a 1.09 in 86ish so way off the pace if the cars were of that eta, saying that I think the track is a bit slower now with changes to Graham Hill and the old Dingle Dell bends.

[number 46]

The DFV's are rev limited to improve reliability and keep costs down, so I doubt that they will be producing the same power as in period, almost certainly less. The circuit is slightly different too with the Graham Hill bend profile change making it slower I think, also Dingle Dell changed, not sure whether its faster or slower though!!! Doubt that any of the current drivers will be quite as committed to doing a banzi lap as Mansell was !!!!

[Coatesy351]

1:07 In 86 qualifying for Piquet with the boost wound up

https://youtu.be/jx3H5sOdnxU

I enjoyed that the F1 cars did seem to be racing rather than just cruising round.

[Kinkell]

Fantastic weekend of historic racing. Highlights for me were the Padmore Stretton battle in the F1's, the family Brown Escorts (300+bhp on carbs) humbling the field in the "Young timers" and the big bangers v the nimble chevrons in the sports car race.
The whole weekend was made possible by the kind Pistonheader who looked after our little dog at short notice.

[anonymous-user]

number 46 said:

The DFV's are rev limited to improve reliability and keep costs down, so I doubt that they will be producing the same power as in period, almost certainly less. The circuit is slightly different too with the Graham Hill bend profile change making it slower I think, also Dingle Dell changed, not sure whether its faster or slower though!!! Doubt that any of the current drivers will be quite as committed to doing a banzi lap as Mansell was !!!!

They are putting out more power and torque than in period for most of the cars, about 520BHP. The 10K rev limit isn't saving a penny, they are spending longer in the dangerous resonance frequency range because of the lower rev range so rebuild time is the same. They get rebuilt at 1000 miles, so without any failures you go through 2 engine builds per season in Masters. Each rebuild costs about £15K.

Some of the drivers are more than capable of lapping at the same pace as a period pro, tyres and none period aero restrictions are the limiting factor as the cars run on A11 Avon compound and cant run skirts that seal on the ground which costs a lot of downforce. The A11 compound is much harder than a qualy tyre of period, you are only allowed one set of tyres per event which kills the pace a bit too.

[number 46]

jsf said:

They are putting out more power and torque than in period for most of the cars, about 520BHP. The 10K rev limit isn't saving a penny, they are spending longer in the dangerous resonance frequency range because of the lower rev range so rebuild time is the same. They get rebuilt at 1000 miles, so without any failures you go through 2 engine builds per season in Masters. Each rebuild costs about £15K.

Some of the drivers are more than capable of lapping at the same pace as a period pro, tyres and none period aero restrictions are the limiting factor as the cars run on A11 Avon compound and cant run skirts that seal on the ground which costs a lot of downforce. The A11 compound is much harder than a qualy tyre of period, you are only allowed one set of tyres per event which kills the pace a bit too.

That's interesting I didn't know that, just imagined that the rev limit was to control costs??! I'd heard that it was more like £35K for the rebuild. Yea tyres are interesting, I guess back in period there was more than one tyre supplier and they had various compounds available, thats why its always a little difficult to compare times.
I was out in Sportscars for the first time and it was quite an eventful day !!! I did notice at the briefing that it is quite a range of drivers in both F1 and sportscars, some old well upholstered geezers like me together with a few thin young and old hotshoes!!!!

It was a brilliant weekend though and I really enjoyed it. Silverstone Classic is the next one for me.

Edited by number 46 on Tuesday 29th May 20:36

[anonymous-user]

number 46 said:

jsf said:

They are putting out more power and torque than in period for most of the cars, about 520BHP. The 10K rev limit isn't saving a penny, they are spending longer in the dangerous resonance frequency range because of the lower rev range so rebuild time is the same. They get rebuilt at 1000 miles, so without any failures you go through 2 engine builds per season in Masters. Each rebuild costs about £15K.

Some of the drivers are more than capable of lapping at the same pace as a period pro, tyres and none period aero restrictions are the limiting factor as the cars run on A11 Avon compound and cant run skirts that seal on the ground which costs a lot of downforce. The A11 compound is much harder than a qualy tyre of period, you are only allowed one set of tyres per event which kills the pace a bit too.

That's interesting I didn't know that, just imagined that the rev limit was to control costs??! I'd heard that it was more like £35K for the rebuild. Yea tyres are interesting, I guess back in period there was more than one tyre supplier and they had various compounds available, thats why its always a little difficult to compare times.
I was out in Sportscars for the first time and it was quite an eventful day !!! I did notice at the briefing that it is quite a range of drivers in both F1 and sportscars, some old well upholstered geezers like me together with a few thin young and old hotshoes!!!!

It was a brilliant weekend though and I really enjoyed it. Silverstone Classic is the next one for me.

Edited by number 46 on Tuesday 29th May 20:36

The idea was to save costs, it hasn't. We are running them to the same mileage as when the limit was 10.6K. They sounded better with a 10.6K limit. It's bad downshifts and missed gears that kills them, not peak revs under load. Rebuild mileage really only ramps up when you are in the 11krpm plus region, they are pretty bullet proof engines now if you keep to the mileage limits and don't buzz them.

There is a big mix of ages and abilities in historic racing, but even some of the older guys are still very quick. Glad you enjoyed the event, historics is a great place for driving. What were you driving?

[number 46]

Lola 212, considerable less expenditure than F1 but still fast and fun!!!!

[Chris Sideways]

Coatesy351 said:

1:07 In 86 qualifying for Piquet with the boost wound up

https://youtu.be/jx3H5sOdnxU

I enjoyed that the F1 cars did seem to be racing rather than just cruising round.

WOW that’s an amazing lap time and look at the way the car is moving around all the time it looks like he’s trying to tame a monster 👍 I know today’s F1 would go twice as fast but wouldn’t look anywhere near as impressive. That’s hope Liberty can bring us back to something like this 😄

[Thundersports]

Chris Sideways said:

I seem to remember Mansell doing something like a 1.09 in 86ish so way off the pace if the cars were of that eta, saying that I think the track is a bit slower now with changes to Graham Hill and the old Dingle Dell bends.

You're comparing like for like though all the cars were running DFVs last weekend not 1000+bhp turbo qualifying engines or super sticky tyres. A more accurate measure of where the cars are lap time wise would be to compare race lap times from the 1982 GP. As JSF says the cars can't run with skirts and are running a minimum ride height of 40mm now. The circuit is about 2 seconds a lap slower now but the barriers and run off are much further back than they were in period. The top guys old and young in the series are really close to the limit and a pleasure to watch.

[Thundersports]

jsf said:

The idea was to save costs, it hasn't. We are running them to the same mileage as when the limit was 10.6K. They sounded better with a 10.6K limit. It's bad downshifts and missed gears that kills them, not peak revs under load. Rebuild mileage really only ramps up when you are in the 11krpm plus region, they are pretty bullet proof engines now if you keep to the mileage limits and don't buzz them.

There is a big mix of ages and abilities in historic racing, but even some of the older guys are still very quick. Glad you enjoyed the event, historics is a great place for driving. What were you driving?

Agree JSF the 10k limit just takes the "edge" off the high rev howl of a DFV. Rob Hall drove a DFV engined sportscar in Masters at Brands last year which my ears told me had no rev limit. It sounded much better MRS Thundersports agreed having never heard ine above 10k before.

[anonymous-user]

number 46 said:

Lola 212, considerable less expenditure than F1 but still fast and fun!!!!

T212's are very nice cars, i've worked with those in the past.

[number 46]

Thundersports said:

You're comparing like for like though all the cars were running DFVs last weekend not 1000+bhp turbo qualifying engines or super sticky tyres. A more accurate measure of where the cars are lap time wise would be to compare race lap times from the 1982 GP. As JSF says the cars can't run with skirts and are running a minimum ride height of 40mm now. The circuit is about 2 seconds a lap slower now but the barriers and run off are much further back than they were in period. The top guys old and young in the series are really close to the limit and a pleasure to watch.

Surprised that the F1 have to run at 40mm, that must reduce the down force compared to period too? Formula 2 also has some good drivers in it, Historics really offer a great events, just more relaxed and fun compared to current F1.