BTCC Round 5 - Croft
Discussion
He may well be a top bloke (He came over to watch the TT this year so bonus points there) but several things could cloud folks perceptions of him if like me you only ever see him on the telly notably his push to pass tactics - tho he's by no means alone there, the Rockingham spat with Plato "I'll rip your face off, Jason", Thruxton where he expected the field to somehow stop & let him cross the track to the pits (he later apologised) but most notably the whisper that his Dad has Gow by the nuts & if the series guru does owt to upset Mr Team Dynamics he'll rue the circumstances.
That could and may well be complete tosh but it has been said! Do I think he's an arse? No. Well not unless he punts Wookie into the gravel
Onwards to Snetterton, that should be.. interesting.
That could and may well be complete tosh but it has been said! Do I think he's an arse? No. Well not unless he punts Wookie into the gravel
Onwards to Snetterton, that should be.. interesting.
df76 said:
Catching up now, and I read in MSN that Subaru were given a boost upgrade. Do TOCA ever publish the BoP details??
It was said the boost upgrade was only worth 3-5bhp and this seems to have been confirmed with the speed trap figures, which showed the Subaru near the bottom end of the field.df76 said:
Catching up now, and I read in MSN that Subaru were given a boost upgrade. Do TOCA ever publish the BoP details??
It was a correction rather than an upgrade for performance reasons. They had miscalculated (presumably because of the unusual engine) and they were given another 20 millibars of boost which, as has been said, is worth about 5hp max.I believe the Team Parker BMW's were given more boost.
Best write up I've seen so far that explains Croft.
https://www.touringcartimes.com/2018/06/28/bmr-sim...
https://www.touringcartimes.com/2018/06/28/bmr-sim...
The boost levels are to equalise engine performance not car performance. Their engine is obviously not the best as the speed traps show.
Inherent advantages for the type of car are dealt with by extra ballast, gearing etc. The Subarus and BMW's carry more weight and have longer gearing to counteract the advantages of RWD.
The Subarus also have to carry ballast under the dash area to counteract the advantage of their low slung engine.
Inherent advantages for the type of car are dealt with by extra ballast, gearing etc. The Subarus and BMW's carry more weight and have longer gearing to counteract the advantages of RWD.
The Subarus also have to carry ballast under the dash area to counteract the advantage of their low slung engine.
They were playing games with it last year though, carrying loads of mid corner speed to gain time at the expense of a poor exit, only they still managed to be half way up the speed traps.
Last year James Cole went across the back of my car at Tarzan like he was diving down the Lake Circuit pitlane every lap.
It’s not just the engine height either, it’s mounted so far back you have to look twice to check it’s still in there
I’d be stunned if Croft turned out to be a one off aligning of small upgrades and circuit suitability
Last year James Cole went across the back of my car at Tarzan like he was diving down the Lake Circuit pitlane every lap.
It’s not just the engine height either, it’s mounted so far back you have to look twice to check it’s still in there
I’d be stunned if Croft turned out to be a one off aligning of small upgrades and circuit suitability
Last year at Croft they were at the top of the speed traps and this year they were at the bottom though. Hard to see how they could turn in the same sort of performance and play the system to that extent.
Surely with the amount of data logging that TOCA have they would see any sort of tricks like that a mile away?
Surely with the amount of data logging that TOCA have they would see any sort of tricks like that a mile away?
The biggest surprise at Croft for me was in race 2 when JP had a drive through penalty, 66kg of ballast and still finished 14th. I'm certainly no expert but something is clearly odd there.
I think there's enough evidence since Croft to draw a fairly sensible conclusion. Evidence is as follows:
- The Matt Neal / Tim Harvey tweets.
"it’s a car which was allowed to be built to different regs than any other on the grid so if u give them proper boost they’ll smoke everyone"
"C of G calc's do not translate to on track performance."
- JP's interview with TouringCars.net
"If we had the same engine, we’d be gone! That’s the problem. Because there would be 30 people up and down this pitlane going f
king ballistic so what’s better to have? Two people getting upset, or 30? For me, they [TOCA] should have said ‘no, the car is not allowed in the championship’ but they didn’t."
- The article on the front page of TouringCarTimes
"Part of the problem regarding the Subaru is that it is something of an anomaly on the grid, with the unique engine configuration under the bonnet making it a different animal compared to the other cars it is competing against.
Its strengths come in other areas compared to the likes of the Honda, Ford, BMW and Toyota and it makes it an even more difficult balancing act to try and ensure that the performance of the different cars is relatively similar.
If the Levorg was given more boost then there is a good chance it would drive off into the distance"
It's a similar story from BMR, other drivers, former champion/pundit, journalists...the car appears to be at odds with the NGTC ethos and balancing its performance is extremely difficult, especially when the grid is so tight and there's such a mixture of tracks. Perhaps it should never have been allowed; certainly seems to produce an element of unpredictability that is hard to swallow.
Will be interesting to see how it performs over the next few races. What can TOCA do though? Sounds like the car needs more power and less grip. Not an easy task to accomplish. Anyone think they might ask BMR to trial different ride heights, etc. at the upcoming tyre test?
Note that I'm no expert and would welcome being put straight on anything I've got wrong above.
I think there's enough evidence since Croft to draw a fairly sensible conclusion. Evidence is as follows:
- The Matt Neal / Tim Harvey tweets.
"it’s a car which was allowed to be built to different regs than any other on the grid so if u give them proper boost they’ll smoke everyone"
"C of G calc's do not translate to on track performance."
- JP's interview with TouringCars.net
"If we had the same engine, we’d be gone! That’s the problem. Because there would be 30 people up and down this pitlane going f
king ballistic so what’s better to have? Two people getting upset, or 30? For me, they [TOCA] should have said ‘no, the car is not allowed in the championship’ but they didn’t."- The article on the front page of TouringCarTimes
"Part of the problem regarding the Subaru is that it is something of an anomaly on the grid, with the unique engine configuration under the bonnet making it a different animal compared to the other cars it is competing against.
Its strengths come in other areas compared to the likes of the Honda, Ford, BMW and Toyota and it makes it an even more difficult balancing act to try and ensure that the performance of the different cars is relatively similar.
If the Levorg was given more boost then there is a good chance it would drive off into the distance"
It's a similar story from BMR, other drivers, former champion/pundit, journalists...the car appears to be at odds with the NGTC ethos and balancing its performance is extremely difficult, especially when the grid is so tight and there's such a mixture of tracks. Perhaps it should never have been allowed; certainly seems to produce an element of unpredictability that is hard to swallow.
Will be interesting to see how it performs over the next few races. What can TOCA do though? Sounds like the car needs more power and less grip. Not an easy task to accomplish. Anyone think they might ask BMR to trial different ride heights, etc. at the upcoming tyre test?
Note that I'm no expert and would welcome being put straight on anything I've got wrong above.
sammo303 said:
The biggest surprise at Croft for me was in race 2 when JP had a drive through penalty, 66kg of ballast and still finished 14th. I'm certainly no expert but something is clearly odd there.
Plato never went to the back of the grid even after the drive through. Plato had Rob Austin right behind him at the finish in the least developed car on the grid and he started from last place. Why isn't that thought of as odd?How about race 3? Plato went backwards and was struggling to keep up with the cars in front and he had less ballast by that stage. There are fine lines in a series where all the cars are so closely matched. Dan Lloyd finishes 9th with the slowest lap in the top 15 in race 2 but totally dominates race 3 for instance.
The Wookie said:
Hard Tyre in Race 2 for Dan Lloyd, Plato had it Race 3
But Sutton won with the hard tyre in Race 1. So it's all swings and roundabouts. IMO people just look for conspiracies where none exist but obviously I have nothing like the info you have and it's just my opinion as a spectator.The Wookie said:
There were rumours of all sorts of tricks going on.
The real problem though is that you have a pitlane full of skeptical people. You can’t deny it looks bloody odd after all the shenanigans last year, particularly right after Plato has a strop.
This is most peoples issue even more than the performance, most were well aware that there was an advantage with the boxer engine, and there’s been times where BMR haven’t had a handle on the car for a big chunk of the season, but 2 years in a row there’s been an overnight jump in how quick one of the factory backed cars in the series suddenly jumps up the order, and it’s been the same car both times. It was the same at Oulton Park last year with the Subaru’s, they claimed to be down on power as Sutton’s car pulled a car and a half gap in the second race on the BMW’s from the top hairpin to the chicane. And that was a gap you could see opening up with your eyes nevermind a timing screen. The real problem though is that you have a pitlane full of skeptical people. You can’t deny it looks bloody odd after all the shenanigans last year, particularly right after Plato has a strop.
Combine that with the big Plato strop and jump in performance that appears just 2 weeks and no testing later... Who isn’t going to be asking questions?
The BTCC is a long running and very successful made for TV soap opera . Instead of the immutable rules more ..err.... traditional (or is that 'proper'? ) racing has , all sorts of little tweaks and mods can be made by the soap's scriptwriters to keep the telly audience excited /outraged/ incandescent . It's just Love Island for petrolheads ...
Some interesting points here - https://www.adrianflux.co.uk/motorsport/plato-back...
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