Rockingham to close
Discussion
jurbie said:
It sort of is already though I think? When I went for a trackday there in May, there were hundreds of parked cars. Vans, newish cars, all parked up (like rental stuff as per the article). Could be for something else though, that was the first time I'd been there.seams crazy that a car parking yard can make more money than a facility like rockingham.
would be nice if they could retain the circuit for racing / trackdays and experience days and use all of the surrounding hard standing for lease car storage as I can't imagine without the BTCC weekend they often need much of the outer paddock.
would be nice if they could retain the circuit for racing / trackdays and experience days and use all of the surrounding hard standing for lease car storage as I can't imagine without the BTCC weekend they often need much of the outer paddock.
acer12 said:
The welsh track never progressed past planning despite decent manufacturer and government backing.
It would make you wonder about the potential for the Northern Ireland track to survive. Fair play to those involved.
Wales was never going to happen. The Welsh Govt have (genuinely) better things to waste their money on backing (or even underwriting)It would make you wonder about the potential for the Northern Ireland track to survive. Fair play to those involved.
NI may survive, but it looks like a white elephant to me.
coppice said:
Having seen real NASCAR and visited Rockingham it is difficult keeping a straight face. Sure , it is a huge facility but so what ? It's like owning Wembley and using it only for five a side football for under eight year olds . It is built in cool and damp Northants , real Indy car territory then, has hosted two proper races in 20 years and . oval apart , offers the worst spectating of 'normal' racing in the UK .
And the crocodile tears mourning of loss of facilities would sound less hollow if Joe Public ever got off its lazy arse and watched live motor sport . But BTCC and GP apart , it really doesn't . For example , I've been to the last two CSCC meetings at Brands and Thruxton , both cracking race meetings , but crowds maybe as much as 1500/2000?
Historic events like the Silverstone Classic, Brands Hatch and Goodwood get massive crowds. Put on a good show and people will come. Club racing isn't a good show, its for the participants.And the crocodile tears mourning of loss of facilities would sound less hollow if Joe Public ever got off its lazy arse and watched live motor sport . But BTCC and GP apart , it really doesn't . For example , I've been to the last two CSCC meetings at Brands and Thruxton , both cracking race meetings , but crowds maybe as much as 1500/2000?
StevieBee said:
From what I can recall, Rockingham was built on a contract for hosting Champ Car races for at least a 10 year period as part of their ambitions to spread beyond the US. Another similar venue was built in Germany where sadly Zinardi lost his legs.
Champ Car then remerged with IndyCar nullifying the contract. IndyCar had no such global ambitions so Rockingham became a bit of a white elephant.
Sort of I understand that Rockingham had a five year deal with CART at a fairly high fee per event with an option to extend to ten. The issue there was that at the end of 2002 CART went bankrupt due to key teams, the title sponsor and engine suppliers all departing. The new owners then tried to keep the international ambitions alive with a brands hatch event in '03 before shifting the series back to being a domestic USA and Canada championship, later on going broke again and then merging back with IndyCar. What I can't recall having ever been disclosed is if Rockingham or CART used '03 to get out the ruinous contract, attendance of '02 was IIRC around 25k so roughly half that of '01. Champ Car then remerged with IndyCar nullifying the contract. IndyCar had no such global ambitions so Rockingham became a bit of a white elephant.
The well known at noted issues with track and drainage certainly didn't help prospects in resecuring the event for '03.
Ascar was originally setup and funded by Rockingham predominantly as series to create a more regular use for the oval.
In many ways the facility was an example of what a 21st century circuit should look like in terms of spectator and team facilities.
Yet in others an example of precisely how not to do it with poor road access, grandstands that became structurally unsafe quickly and complete lack of atmosphere due to size of place vs attendance. What has ultimately doomed it IMHO that size and scale of the facilities created to attract CART far exceed profitable demand over the full year.
The land it's on has over years since '93? gone from virtually worthless to holding a very significant value for development and being a critical item in blocking the proposed neighbouring housing developments. The previous owners IIRC purchased Rockingham for the purpose of agreeing usage and noise limits needed to enable Priors Hall Park which at the time they also owned.
jsf said:
Historic events like the Silverstone Classic, Brands Hatch and Goodwood get massive crowds. Put on a good show and people will come. Club racing isn't a good show, its for the participants.
Actually , it is a bloody brilliant show - by far the best, cleanest and closest racing in the UK is in club racing . Go and watch an HSCC FF1600 event and tell me I'm wrong . And much as I enjoy Goodwood , half of the people who attend wouldn't know a Lola T70 from a hole in their arse, but prefer to concentrate on dressing up like Poundshop WW2 pilots or Marilyn Monroe.. coppice said:
Actually , it is a bloody brilliant show - by far the best, cleanest and closest racing in the UK is in club racing . Go and watch an HSCC FF1600 event and tell me I'm wrong . And much as I enjoy Goodwood , half of the people who attend wouldn't know a Lola T70 from a hole in their arse, but prefer to concentrate on dressing up like Poundshop WW2 pilots or Marilyn Monroe..
It may be a good show for you, for the majority of the general public it isn't. jsf said:
coppice said:
Actually , it is a bloody brilliant show - by far the best, cleanest and closest racing in the UK is in club racing . Go and watch an HSCC FF1600 event and tell me I'm wrong . And much as I enjoy Goodwood , half of the people who attend wouldn't know a Lola T70 from a hole in their arse, but prefer to concentrate on dressing up like Poundshop WW2 pilots or Marilyn Monroe..
It may be a good show for you, for the majority of the general public it isn't. I believe WEC has been gaining a following and visitor numbers have been increasing. Silverstone classic gets a big crowd also.
andy97 said:
jsf said:
Club racing isn't a good show, its for the participants.
Club racing is for the participants - but it is also usually a good show.The issue then - and I assume remains - is that there is no single entity that sees its self as the marketer or promotor of events. A circuit owner hires its circuit to a club. Providing the owner gets his hire fees, he's happy. The club recovers the hire fees through entry fees from participants. As long as they get this, they are happy.
Spectators are seen as PiA by many circuits as they need food, beer, bogs and people to tell them where and how to park as apparently racegoers lack the competency to do this themselves. As such, there's no real desire to promote the smaller events beyond the season ticket holder enthusiasts.
The problem is that as circuit hire fees increase so race-entry fees increase which makes an already expensive sport more expensive which is felt most by those that participate at club level. Grids shrink which lessens the spectacle making it more difficult to attract spectators.
From memory, we calculated that around 5,000 spectators paying £12 to attend a clubby at Brands would generate sufficient revenue to a level that would cover all circuit costs and avoid the need for the circuit to charge a hire fee to the clubs. Not only that, a not insignificant prize fund could be made available. The theory was that the racing would become cheaper, the grids would become fuller and the racing more exciting as the drivers were racing for a tangible prize (cash) rather than a cheap trophy and would cost them less money to do so.
This wouldn't apply to all circuits. It would be difficult to get 5,000 people to, say Cadwell. But Brands Hatch is what, less than 20 miles from Central London. Again, I can't recall the exact figures but something like 12 million people live within an hours drive of Brands.
The concept never took off because neither the clubs of circuit owners wanted to invest (what was a reasonably modest sum that they would have got back within 12 months - probably sooner) and there was a clear difference of opinion as to whether the clubs of circuits should be the primary beneficiaries.
Basically, they couldn't be arsed....didn't see the need.
Jonathan Palmer (who was the most positive towards the concept) has probably done more on the spectator front than any other owner since John Webb but he's largely preaching to the converted.
I remember doing FIA GT back in'99.
We used to play"spot the fan" at some rounds, the pit lane out numbering the people in the stands 15 to 1. Silverstone Classic was quieter than last year by some margin, but that may have been due to the number of big historic events that come round every 2 years.
Found an old results web site, we came 2nd in the first BGT Rockingham race. Didn't like the track even then!!
We used to play"spot the fan" at some rounds, the pit lane out numbering the people in the stands 15 to 1. Silverstone Classic was quieter than last year by some margin, but that may have been due to the number of big historic events that come round every 2 years.
Found an old results web site, we came 2nd in the first BGT Rockingham race. Didn't like the track even then!!
chunder27 said:
Good luck trying to get 5000 people to a clubby anywhere.
Jesus, that would never happen if you charged less than a tenner, had Thundersalooons, Historic f1 and 10 other series.
Get real for Gods sake
It used to happen. In the days of The Sun promotions, and more recently the Renault Sport days. Castle Combe has good crowds (but not sure of numbers) and even the ASCAR races at Rockingham had good crowds when combined with concerts.Jesus, that would never happen if you charged less than a tenner, had Thundersalooons, Historic f1 and 10 other series.
Get real for Gods sake
The short oval fraternity get crowds and so do bike meetings. The MSVR / Moyorsport News Circuit Rally series gets good crowds (particularly the Neil Howard stages at Oulton Park)
It might be possible again with promotion and imagination. BUT, circuit racing is a minority sport and not deemed environmentally acceptable these days. It's difficult but not impossible in my view.
chunder27 said:
Good luck trying to get 5000 people to a clubby anywhere.
Jesus, that would never happen if you charged less than a tenner, had Thundersalooons, Historic f1 and 10 other series.
Get real for Gods sake
Regularly achievable in the past. John Webb managed to bring them into Brands in vast numbers,Jesus, that would never happen if you charged less than a tenner, had Thundersalooons, Historic f1 and 10 other series.
Get real for Gods sake
I used to marshall the startline for Rallycross at Brands Hatch in the 80s and the (now gone) startline grandstand and all round paddock up to Druids was completely chokka - and this was in the winter!!
StevieBee said:
Regularly achievable in the past. John Webb managed to bring them into Brands in vast numbers,
I used to marshall the startline for Rallycross at Brands Hatch in the 80s and the (now gone) startline grandstand and all round paddock up to Druids was completely chokka - and this was in the winter!!
Different era for entertainment.I used to marshall the startline for Rallycross at Brands Hatch in the 80s and the (now gone) startline grandstand and all round paddock up to Druids was completely chokka - and this was in the winter!!
Vaud said:
StevieBee said:
Regularly achievable in the past. John Webb managed to bring them into Brands in vast numbers,
I used to marshall the startline for Rallycross at Brands Hatch in the 80s and the (now gone) startline grandstand and all round paddock up to Druids was completely chokka - and this was in the winter!!
Different era for entertainment.I used to marshall the startline for Rallycross at Brands Hatch in the 80s and the (now gone) startline grandstand and all round paddock up to Druids was completely chokka - and this was in the winter!!
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