Discussion
super7 said:
Money is not nescesariilly the first issue....... did Hamilton's dad have s
t loads of cash to throw at Karting? Don't think so? He was spotted because he was achieving better results than he should have, given the amount of money his dad spending! It was at that point people started fighting over who was going to finance him... (if i remember the story correctly!)
The biggest issue is getting kids on the track where they can be seen and for them to want to do it. And you don't need a fortune for that.... I did it.
yeah sorry Super7 - I didn't necessarily mean where the money comes from. Lewis had massive massive backing from an early age. He always had the best equipment and from what I can tell the most talent. Without that money (no matter where it came from) he wouldn't be anywhere.t loads of cash to throw at Karting? Don't think so? He was spotted because he was achieving better results than he should have, given the amount of money his dad spending! It was at that point people started fighting over who was going to finance him... (if i remember the story correctly!)The biggest issue is getting kids on the track where they can be seen and for them to want to do it. And you don't need a fortune for that.... I did it.
IndyCar driver Pippa Mann posted a blog post on this last year, which is worth reading.
In it she refers to it as "The Handmaid's Racing Series".
http://www.pippamann.com/2017/06/19/the-handmaids-...
In it she refers to it as "The Handmaid's Racing Series".
http://www.pippamann.com/2017/06/19/the-handmaids-...
super7 said:
The Selfish Gene said:
I didn't say male white privilege doesn't exist (incidentally how do you know I'm white and/or male?)
what I said was, when it comes to motorsport the first issue is money, and the second is talent.
Nobody gives a fk - you could be a black giraffe with herpes - if you're fast and you can afford it, you are driving the cars.
Money is not nescesariilly the first issue....... did Hamilton's dad have swhat I said was, when it comes to motorsport the first issue is money, and the second is talent.
Nobody gives a f
k - you could be a black giraffe with herpes - if you're fast and you can afford it, you are driving the cars.t loads of cash to throw at Karting? Don't think so? He was spotted because he was achieving better results than he should have, given the amount of money his dad spending! It was at that point people started fighting over who was going to finance him... (if i remember the story correctly!)The biggest issue is getting kids on the track where they can be seen and for them to want to do it. And you don't need a fortune for that.... I did it.
The reality of Lewis' success (along with his talent of course) is that his Dad had a single mindedness that Lewis was going to be the next Senna. He put every spare penny into Lewis' development and was a very good networker himself. He did everything he could to get Lewis 'spotted' which undoubtedly meant many, many hours marketing his son to various F1 teams. The only difference between Lewis and someone like Max Chilton (from a money perspective at least) was that the risk was much higher for the Hamiltons. If Lewis failed to be successful, his Dad would have put everything on the line for nothing. Max on the other hand had a few spare million in his Dad's bank account, so there was never really much of a risk if he didn't make it....
The biggest misconception the public make about motor racing is that talent will get you 'spotted'. It won't. Ask anyone who's had any success racing cars, and you'll usually find that the win's make up a tiny faction of the time involved in getting there. Hours of graft preparing sponsorship presentation, phoning around, networking, instructing and hundreds of dead ends, let downs, lows and false promises. What does it take to be a racing driver? About 10% talent, and either a massive bank account or thousands of hours of hard work. Gender is utterly irrelevant.
As pointed out so aptly by Pippa Mann, this new series is seriously damaging. It's asking talented female drivers to sell their souls to a group of people intent on creating segregation (and re-enforcing stereotypes) for a fully paid up season of single seaters. It's a huge carrot to dangle. 'Here you go girls.....a free to enter race series with a massive cash prize. No more hours of phoning around, last minute deals, PR and credit card loans. An all expenses paid seasons drive....all you have to do is forget your morals and surrender your personal branding/reputation for our use, and you get it all.' It's exploitative and demeaning.
The correct and proper way of doing this would have been to set up a scholarship. Pay 10 up and coming ladies, £100k each for 10 separate championships. Continue to fund them through to the pinnacle of their respective classes and prove the establishment wrong about women in motorsport. Sadly, what we have instead is an idea invented by a largely male consortium (and Carmen Jorda who realised long ago that she's so useless at driving she needs all the help she can get) that patronises and exploits. It's a real shame and does nothing for the great women in our sport like Abbie Eaton, Flick Haigh and Beitske Visser.
Clockwork Cupcake said:
The Selfish Gene said:
erm? I'm sorry I don't speak random 
what?
As in, "you say that and yet it doesn't match reality". I thought the allusion was perfectly clear. what?
no worries - got to dash, flight to Milan - will check back Monday
This talk (skip to 5 mins if you want the part I think is really relevant, but the early part is fun too), should fit nicely into the question of why there are not more girls sat on karting grids among all the "Motorsport is Dangerous" signs.
https://www.ted.com/talks/caroline_paul_to_raise_b...
https://www.ted.com/talks/caroline_paul_to_raise_b...
The other danger, sorry if its been pointed out, is if this championship is made up largely of making up the numbers competitors, a woman with genuine ability could find herself flattered into looking amazing while not working that hard, while her male peers are fighting tooth and nail and learning the ropes, leaving her unprepared and embarrassed when she does get her shot at the big time
Look at max verstappen, he has great natural speed, but after 4 years he's still making the rookie mistakes that should have been smashed out of him in GP2&3, the series he leapfrogged in his meteoric rise.
Look at max verstappen, he has great natural speed, but after 4 years he's still making the rookie mistakes that should have been smashed out of him in GP2&3, the series he leapfrogged in his meteoric rise.
Teddy Lop said:
The other danger, sorry if its been pointed out, is if this championship is made up largely of making up the numbers competitors, a woman with genuine ability could find herself flattered into looking amazing while not working that hard, while her male peers are fighting tooth and nail and learning the ropes, leaving her unprepared and embarrassed when she does get her shot at the big time
Look at max verstappen, he has great natural speed, but after 4 years he's still making the rookie mistakes that should have been smashed out of him in GP2&3, the series he leapfrogged in his meteoric rise.
That's a very fair point. Look at max verstappen, he has great natural speed, but after 4 years he's still making the rookie mistakes that should have been smashed out of him in GP2&3, the series he leapfrogged in his meteoric rise.
Those that imagine that fitness /strength isn't important for drivers are deluding themselves.
Top class race drivers are some of the fittest people on the planet .
The forces imposed on the body by modern race machinery are crippling.
10 laps in a top flight single seater at anything near race speed will have a reasonably fit person on their knees .
It isn't by accident that some of the F1 drivers do some extreme sports like Triathlon or Iron man challenges in the off season to stay fit .
Top class race drivers are some of the fittest people on the planet .
The forces imposed on the body by modern race machinery are crippling.
10 laps in a top flight single seater at anything near race speed will have a reasonably fit person on their knees .
It isn't by accident that some of the F1 drivers do some extreme sports like Triathlon or Iron man challenges in the off season to stay fit .
grumpy52 said:
Those that imagine that fitness /strength isn't important for drivers are deluding themselves.
Top class race drivers are some of the fittest people on the planet .
The forces imposed on the body by modern race machinery are crippling.
10 laps in a top flight single seater at anything near race speed will have a reasonably fit person on their knees .
It isn't by accident that some of the F1 drivers do some extreme sports like Triathlon or Iron man challenges in the off season to stay fit .
That's very true. f1 drivers have to have to rely on incredible basic stamina and endurance to maintain focus lap after lap in extreme temps, not missing braking points, etc etc. Many other athletes might go the distance in endurance or strength but dont require the mental focus of top flight motorsports, they can just push their barriers. One reason Schumacher was so successful was his attitude to supreme physical fitness, which wasn't the norm back then.Top class race drivers are some of the fittest people on the planet .
The forces imposed on the body by modern race machinery are crippling.
10 laps in a top flight single seater at anything near race speed will have a reasonably fit person on their knees .
It isn't by accident that some of the F1 drivers do some extreme sports like Triathlon or Iron man challenges in the off season to stay fit .
Teddy Lop said:
That's very true. f1 drivers have to have to rely on incredible basic stamina and endurance to maintain focus lap after lap in extreme temps, not missing braking points, etc etc. Many other athletes might go the distance in endurance or strength but dont require the mental focus of top flight motorsports, they can just push their barriers. One reason Schumacher was so successful was his attitude to supreme physical fitness, which wasn't the norm back then.
However... the level of physical fitness does not exceed that which a woman would be able to muster. I hate it when men throw the fitness thing out there, pure and utter garbage.
there is NOTHING to suggest a modern F1 car is harder to drive than they ahve ever been. They are broadly similar.
I simply do not believe that no woman could ever match a man in a car, it's pure folly.
Most of whta makes the difference to champions is desire, belief and in some religion, to the detriment usually of loved ones and even their rivals.
there is NOTHING to suggest a modern F1 car is harder to drive than they ahve ever been. They are broadly similar.
I simply do not believe that no woman could ever match a man in a car, it's pure folly.
Most of whta makes the difference to champions is desire, belief and in some religion, to the detriment usually of loved ones and even their rivals.
Clockwork Cupcake said:
Teddy Lop said:
That's very true. f1 drivers have to have to rely on incredible basic stamina and endurance to maintain focus lap after lap in extreme temps, not missing braking points, etc etc. Many other athletes might go the distance in endurance or strength but dont require the mental focus of top flight motorsports, they can just push their barriers. One reason Schumacher was so successful was his attitude to supreme physical fitness, which wasn't the norm back then.
However... the level of physical fitness does not exceed that which a woman would be able to muster. And I say that as a man happily married to a woman whose deadset against children - and not entirely unrelated to her career, so there's no "know your place in society" here. Just the observation that here's yet another 1% reducer that might logically explain a thinning of the numbers?
Teddy Lop said:
I wouldn't know, it was more an observation on the fitness rather than a M.v.W comment. I've no reason to doubt there are woman that can achieve the fitness, but at what cost? What effect does having children have on it and what effect might it have on fertility? That's speculations BTW I'm just pondering, I wonder though, (having brought up families,) that one of the biggest oppressors probably is that most people will want to make more people in their life, and that massively prejudices to favour men, who can make babies in their prime, or decades after their prime - they have the luxury to do that as and when. Not so for women. Women must chose.
And I say that as a man happily married to a woman whose deadset against children - and not entirely unrelated to her career, so there's no "know your place in society" here. Just the observation that here's yet another 1% reducer that might logically explain a thinning of the numbers?
I think it's also fair to say that a lot of women are far too sensible to go risking their life driving round and round in circles. And I say that as a man happily married to a woman whose deadset against children - and not entirely unrelated to her career, so there's no "know your place in society" here. Just the observation that here's yet another 1% reducer that might logically explain a thinning of the numbers?
To get more women in at the top requires removing perceived barriers lower down.
The series I’m involved with has had a good female contingent for the thick end of a decade. We have a ladies cup within the series. I acknowledge that having a ladies cup is inherently sexist, however, it helps break down a barrier in the same was a newcomers/rookies cup does. From working with various women in the series initially they are interested in winning the ladies trophy, which soon fades in to wanting newcomers wins, overall top tens and podiums.
This new W Series just seems like a backwards step. Feels like doing something to because they have to be seen to be doing something and this is a big show achieved relatively easily. It would be much harder to achieve the same fanfare by doing the harder job and starting at grass roots level.
The real tragedy here is the grass roots work and initiatives won’t get any funding or publicity but when (not if) more women are present at all levels in years to come, this will get the credit.
The series I’m involved with has had a good female contingent for the thick end of a decade. We have a ladies cup within the series. I acknowledge that having a ladies cup is inherently sexist, however, it helps break down a barrier in the same was a newcomers/rookies cup does. From working with various women in the series initially they are interested in winning the ladies trophy, which soon fades in to wanting newcomers wins, overall top tens and podiums.
This new W Series just seems like a backwards step. Feels like doing something to because they have to be seen to be doing something and this is a big show achieved relatively easily. It would be much harder to achieve the same fanfare by doing the harder job and starting at grass roots level.
The real tragedy here is the grass roots work and initiatives won’t get any funding or publicity but when (not if) more women are present at all levels in years to come, this will get the credit.
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