2019 Rallying Thread (WRC, ERC and all other)!
Discussion
chunder27 said:
He did little in GT racing or rallycross and WTCC so can only presume his main skill is as a rally driver, fair enough.
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To be fair, he has won races in all 3 categories, just not any championships - which very few others have done. And has a 2nd place at Le Mans in a Pescarolo-Judd behind an all conquering Audi R10 TDi. .
In the age of specialisation, he's gone out of his comfort zone to try other disciplines....a shame more others don't follow his example. Saying that Alonso is going for the 'Triple Crown' and has the Indy 500 left to complete this.
chunder27 said:
Ok let's be frank.
Loeb was dominant, to the point of utterly ruining WRC for fans and viewers, is that his fault? No, As a fan do I like it, No. So I am allowed to not like the man much.
He did little in GT racing or rallycross and WTCC so can only presume his main skill is as a rally driver, fair enough.
He only ever drive one brand, several cars utterly designed around him and his style and talent, Ogier started beating him and what happened, he was soon on his way out.
He had no competition for most of his career other than Solberg the odd time, Hirvonen and Gronholm, all in inferior cars and all drivers who drove for more than one manufacturer.
While I applaud his skill, speed and ability, he single handedly brought WRC to its knees, biggest budget, best car, best driver, what's to like?
At least Ogier has done it in several cars, even before then in the C4, VW, Ford and now Citroen again.
That for me is a far, far bigger achievement than anything Loeb did.
So, getting all uppity because I once said I am not a fan of Ogier that much, when he is probably the least popular of the current drivers because of his moaning and whingeing means you have looked at my username, my post history and formed an opinion based on that, not what I said.
Well done to you and your little followers.
Don't flatter yourself, your posts/posting history aren't worthy of me wasting a second of my time to trawl through them. Loeb was dominant, to the point of utterly ruining WRC for fans and viewers, is that his fault? No, As a fan do I like it, No. So I am allowed to not like the man much.
He did little in GT racing or rallycross and WTCC so can only presume his main skill is as a rally driver, fair enough.
He only ever drive one brand, several cars utterly designed around him and his style and talent, Ogier started beating him and what happened, he was soon on his way out.
He had no competition for most of his career other than Solberg the odd time, Hirvonen and Gronholm, all in inferior cars and all drivers who drove for more than one manufacturer.
While I applaud his skill, speed and ability, he single handedly brought WRC to its knees, biggest budget, best car, best driver, what's to like?
At least Ogier has done it in several cars, even before then in the C4, VW, Ford and now Citroen again.
That for me is a far, far bigger achievement than anything Loeb did.
So, getting all uppity because I once said I am not a fan of Ogier that much, when he is probably the least popular of the current drivers because of his moaning and whingeing means you have looked at my username, my post history and formed an opinion based on that, not what I said.
Well done to you and your little followers.
We crossed swords on a Moto GP thread where you made similar rather inane, disparaging remarks (or drivel as you prefer to call it) about J Lorenzo :
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
As is my right, I took you to task on that thread.
When you did the did the same about S Loeb on last year's WRC rally thread, I again took you to task.
You've chosen to do the same again on this years WRC thread with regards to S Ogier, so I responded. Can you see a pattern emerging ??
It's public forum, if you can't deal with others not agreeing with your perspective (or you're default response is to start hurling personal insults/inaccurate accusations at those that don't) you'd be better off not posting at all ...
And for the record, I didn't get "uppity", on the contrary, I merely pointed out you'll seemingly take any opportunity to have a pop at Messrs Loeb or Ogier, and more often than not your views are at odds with other contributors. And judging by one of the responses to your little tantrum yesterday, it appears you're getting up people's noses.
I'd suggest that if you must post on this thread, you at least have the decency to avoid resorting to personal insults.
Alex Langheck said:
To be fair, he has won races in all 3 categories, just not any championships - which very few others have done. And has a 2nd place at Le Mans in a Pescarolo-Judd behind an all conquering Audi R10 TDi.
In the age of specialisation, he's gone out of his comfort zone to try other disciplines....a shame more others don't follow his example. Saying that Alonso is going for the 'Triple Crown' and has the Indy 500 left to complete this.
I pointed this out to our learned friend in last year's WRC thread, it didn't wash. Oh, and don't bother mentioning Loeb's victory on "that mountain climb event" across the pond either ... In the age of specialisation, he's gone out of his comfort zone to try other disciplines....a shame more others don't follow his example. Saying that Alonso is going for the 'Triple Crown' and has the Indy 500 left to complete this.
I'll wade into chunder's Loeb stuff.
He did little in WRX mainly because VW have won almost everything for the last 2 years.
He did manage a win in 2 out the 3 years he competed, obviously the Peugeot 208 supercar was not the car to have ,always up there
but not quite ,or the Hansen brothers would have had wins too.
He was the only driver to defeat Kristoffersson last year ,who won 11/12 rounds.
Belgium May 2018
He did little in WRX mainly because VW have won almost everything for the last 2 years.
He did manage a win in 2 out the 3 years he competed, obviously the Peugeot 208 supercar was not the car to have ,always up there
but not quite ,or the Hansen brothers would have had wins too.
He was the only driver to defeat Kristoffersson last year ,who won 11/12 rounds.
Belgium May 2018
Edited by Pericoloso on Tuesday 29th January 18:56
Jerry Can said:
hmmm. a good result as a win is a win, but Rovenpera handed it to him on day one, and generally smashed him in stage times there after. He needs to win with no issues to Rovanpera then maybe a WRC drive is on the cards.
My feelings on Gus too. No doubt he put in a great performance, but I'll reserve further judgement until fighting a decent WRC2 Pro entry. Minus a point or two for the arrogant "Kalle who" comment. But things are said at stage end when the drivers are at their purest and still oozing with adrenaline/endorphines.chunder27 said:
Ogier for me goes miles in front of Loeb already in terms of ability as he has at least won in two types of car!
4 different types of car. 5 if you want to get pedantic about it ( C4, DS4, Polo, Fiesta & C3)chunder27 said:
I have no real issue with Ogier, he moans a lot about lots of things sometimes rightly as WRC have persistently tried to nullify his advantage when they did little about Loeb winning for a decade, but he still wins, and I will not be the only person around who says that.
Loeb was often very vocal about things. But let his driving and skill do the talkingI wasn't a fan of Ogier until his move to M-Sport, I misguidedly judged his attitude as cocky and arrogant. The personality change in him visible at M-Sport really opened my eyes to it actually being passion and pure desire to win by any means. Dragging the inferior Fiesta to the title for the last 2 years showed he is up there with the best, alongside Seb Loeb but not yet surpassing imho.
Allyc85 said:
about a gnats b
ks width difference there surely? Think Ott was helped with the Yaris being smaller so it skipped out of the verge as oposed to Evans being dragged in. And a hefty amount of luck on Ott's sideSlippydiff said:
Alex Langheck said:
To be fair, he has won races in all 3 categories, just not any championships - which very few others have done. And has a 2nd place at Le Mans in a Pescarolo-Judd behind an all conquering Audi R10 TDi.
In the age of specialisation, he's gone out of his comfort zone to try other disciplines....a shame more others don't follow his example. Saying that Alonso is going for the 'Triple Crown' and has the Indy 500 left to complete this.
I pointed this out to our learned friend in last year's WRC thread, it didn't wash. Oh, and don't bother mentioning Loeb's victory on "that mountain climb event" across the pond either ... In the age of specialisation, he's gone out of his comfort zone to try other disciplines....a shame more others don't follow his example. Saying that Alonso is going for the 'Triple Crown' and has the Indy 500 left to complete this.
Finishing 3rd in his rookie year isn't doing much either? Or 4 race wins in the GT Series in an MP4-12C cant count as Loeb was somewhat of a tarmac specialist?
As for the comment of Loeb not having any competition then sorry did Ford, Subaru, Peugeot not field factory teams during his first 4 championships? Its actually quite insulting to say he had no competition against such drivers as Burns, McRae, Solberg, Sainz, Martin, Hirvonen, Gronholm, Makinen. not to mention Sordo gifting him a number of wins under team orders!
All this aside, if Monte is anything to go by this season should be a corker! Meeke looking completely at home and confident in the car and able to match Ott in places. I cant see it not being Toyota's crown again this year but wouldn't like to be Tommi having to call team orders!
Loeb world champion in Xsara, C4 and Ds3.
Chunder, the cleaning of the roads by the front runner was put in place during Loeb's years to try to stop his total hanniliation of other competitors. They started with day one sweeping and later when Ogier arrived they realised that it still wasn't enough for the lads to catch the french boys, so it went to 2 days sweeping.
Loeb or Ogier, I wouldn't know which one is actually better, the only thing is that I rarely remember Loeb making lots of mistake under pressure. Ogier is a bit more prone to small mistakes I would say.
Loeb has won world champs against other world champs, Ogier haven't had the honour to do it as the only guy who was world champ for years before him was Loeb. So the competition was already psychologically destroed...lol
Still, maybe the 2 best rally drivers of all time with Vatanen, and Walter to my eyes.
Chunder, the cleaning of the roads by the front runner was put in place during Loeb's years to try to stop his total hanniliation of other competitors. They started with day one sweeping and later when Ogier arrived they realised that it still wasn't enough for the lads to catch the french boys, so it went to 2 days sweeping.
Loeb or Ogier, I wouldn't know which one is actually better, the only thing is that I rarely remember Loeb making lots of mistake under pressure. Ogier is a bit more prone to small mistakes I would say.
Loeb has won world champs against other world champs, Ogier haven't had the honour to do it as the only guy who was world champ for years before him was Loeb. So the competition was already psychologically destroed...lol
Still, maybe the 2 best rally drivers of all time with Vatanen, and Walter to my eyes.
I don't believe I made any kind of personal insults to anyone, compared to what is directed at me.
people with opinion and the ability to back it up with at least some fact are always going to go against the grain on forums like this, because they are full of people backslapping, agreeing with each other.
It's about having fun, engaging in discussion, not just calling people names and being insulting when someone speaks out against a common belief.
Do you not think Solberg, Gronholm or even Ogier would have beaten Loeb consistently in a Citroen, I personally think they would on gravel at least, obviously not on tar as Seb was dominant on that his entire career.
He did not do much in rallycross, and let's be frank he, his talent should have owned every driver out there by a long way, no matter the car, he had some good results, but was not really a series factor against Solberg funnily enough who this time was in the better car, not better funded or run, just the better car, funny that?
WTCC was a joke really, Citroen bought it, ruined and dumped it, Loeb won a bit but was not a title challenger, and I honestly don't know much about his GT efforts, so fair kop there.
Winning in different cars for me at least is a sign of pure talent, Ogier has swapped several times, and been the best in each. His talent pool now is higher than it was at VW, Tanak, Meeke (lol) Neuville are all as quick. Loeb had one rival most of the time and bringing up the 307 or whatever is pointless that car was a dog the moment it was built. The Xsara was a league ahead of anything as soon as it was debuted and Loeb took full advantage.
Dont get me wrong, I do not hate Loeb or Ogier, not at all, but I do not like dominanace of any sort, in any sport. That is why I do not warm to certain drivers and teams. Does it mean I do not rate them, Of course not, I just think their dominance takes the edge of their reputation in my eyes. Sounds daft but sorry that is what I think.
people with opinion and the ability to back it up with at least some fact are always going to go against the grain on forums like this, because they are full of people backslapping, agreeing with each other.
It's about having fun, engaging in discussion, not just calling people names and being insulting when someone speaks out against a common belief.
Do you not think Solberg, Gronholm or even Ogier would have beaten Loeb consistently in a Citroen, I personally think they would on gravel at least, obviously not on tar as Seb was dominant on that his entire career.
He did not do much in rallycross, and let's be frank he, his talent should have owned every driver out there by a long way, no matter the car, he had some good results, but was not really a series factor against Solberg funnily enough who this time was in the better car, not better funded or run, just the better car, funny that?
WTCC was a joke really, Citroen bought it, ruined and dumped it, Loeb won a bit but was not a title challenger, and I honestly don't know much about his GT efforts, so fair kop there.
Winning in different cars for me at least is a sign of pure talent, Ogier has swapped several times, and been the best in each. His talent pool now is higher than it was at VW, Tanak, Meeke (lol) Neuville are all as quick. Loeb had one rival most of the time and bringing up the 307 or whatever is pointless that car was a dog the moment it was built. The Xsara was a league ahead of anything as soon as it was debuted and Loeb took full advantage.
Dont get me wrong, I do not hate Loeb or Ogier, not at all, but I do not like dominanace of any sort, in any sport. That is why I do not warm to certain drivers and teams. Does it mean I do not rate them, Of course not, I just think their dominance takes the edge of their reputation in my eyes. Sounds daft but sorry that is what I think.
E34-3.2 said:
Still, maybe the 2 best rally drivers of all time with Vatanen, and Walter to my eyes.
Kankkunen has to be right up there - not just for winning 4 championships with 3 different manufacturers, but for taking wins in such a wide variety of car types from Rwd Grp4 through 4wd Group B, Group A to modern WRC. Even managed 8th at Rally Finland 2010 in a 2 year old Focus, at the age of 51!Its always hard to compare drivers from different eras though - its not Loeb's fault that WRC stayed with more or less the same car format for his whole WRC career. maybe he would have adapted to different car formats as well as Kankkunen if he had been in that era, and maybe Juha would have won more than 4 titles too if their circumstances were reversed.
As for Pikes Peak... I still think of Millen's 1994 record as the best drive there - it took 13 years and most of the road being sealed before anyone could beat it.
Edited by GravelBen on Tuesday 29th January 23:06
chunder27 said:
but I do not like dominanace of any sort, in any sport. That is why I do not warm to certain drivers and teams. Does it mean I do not rate them, Of course not, I just think their dominance takes the edge of their reputation in my eyes. Sounds daft but sorry that is what I think.
So teams such as Citroen and VW throw their vast financial might behind a championship and employ the best drivers to make their investment viable, that in turn leads to dominance in their chosen discipline and you dislike it ? That’s the way of the world, so quit whining like a bh. Or follow some other sport at grass roots level...Sounds daft ? Well yes, and a little pathetic to be totally frank.
Lol I probably follow more grass roots racing than most on here so don't give me that.
They spend their money unwisely, look at Ford this year, no decent drivers, no sponsor despite winning the series for two years, all because of one man.
The car is good enough, the drivers aren't.
Someon mentioned Juha, best gravel driver of his era no doubt, but rather hopeless (he admits himself) on tar, like Gronholm and Hirvonen after him.
Makinen, Carlos, Auriol would be my choices. Not because of what they won, but how they drove, how they adapted. Tommi was as fast as Colin but kept it on the island more, Carlos could win in anything given the chance, and Didier was unstoppable when it was juuuust right. And didn't left foot brake, always a bonus with me!!
They spend their money unwisely, look at Ford this year, no decent drivers, no sponsor despite winning the series for two years, all because of one man.
The car is good enough, the drivers aren't.
Someon mentioned Juha, best gravel driver of his era no doubt, but rather hopeless (he admits himself) on tar, like Gronholm and Hirvonen after him.
Makinen, Carlos, Auriol would be my choices. Not because of what they won, but how they drove, how they adapted. Tommi was as fast as Colin but kept it on the island more, Carlos could win in anything given the chance, and Didier was unstoppable when it was juuuust right. And didn't left foot brake, always a bonus with me!!
chunder27 said:
Lol I probably follow more grass roots racing than most on here so don't give me that.
They spend their money unwisely, look at Ford this year, no decent drivers, no sponsor despite winning the series for two years, all because of one man.
The car is good enough, the drivers aren't.
Someon mentioned Juha, best gravel driver of his era no doubt, but rather hopeless (he admits himself) on tar, like Gronholm and Hirvonen after him.
Makinen, Carlos, Auriol would be my choices. Not because of what they won, but how they drove, how they adapted. Tommi was as fast as Colin but kept it on the island more, Carlos could win in anything given the chance, and Didier was unstoppable when it was juuuust right. And didn't left foot brake, always a bonus with me!!
"It's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt"They spend their money unwisely, look at Ford this year, no decent drivers, no sponsor despite winning the series for two years, all because of one man.
The car is good enough, the drivers aren't.
Someon mentioned Juha, best gravel driver of his era no doubt, but rather hopeless (he admits himself) on tar, like Gronholm and Hirvonen after him.
Makinen, Carlos, Auriol would be my choices. Not because of what they won, but how they drove, how they adapted. Tommi was as fast as Colin but kept it on the island more, Carlos could win in anything given the chance, and Didier was unstoppable when it was juuuust right. And didn't left foot brake, always a bonus with me!!
You're doing a great job, keep digging ....
WRC to at the very least go Hybrid in 2022. Personally it has to happen to get more teams interested, and if done properly won't affect the noise too much. Reading the comments on the WRGB Fb page makes me chuckle. So many simpletons who don't read what's being reported, it's unreal 
In other news BTRDA driver and Superbike team owner Paul Bird has been banned for evading a drugs test. It would explain why his Focus was up for sale towards the end of last year!
In other news BTRDA driver and Superbike team owner Paul Bird has been banned for evading a drugs test. It would explain why his Focus was up for sale towards the end of last year!
Edited by Allyc85 on Wednesday 30th January 17:16
tardelli said:
I thought Paul Birds ban was in 2015?
Just got another one.Edited by tardelli on Wednesday 30th January 18:45
https://www.ukad.org.uk/news/article/rally-driver-...
Allyc85 said:
WRC to at the very least go Hybrid in 2022. Personally it has to happen to get more teams interested, and if done properly won't affect the noise too much. Reading the comments on the WRGB Fb page makes me chuckle. So many simpletons who don't read what's being reported, it's unreal
In other news BTRDA driver and Superbike team owner Paul Bird has been banned for evading a drugs test. It would explain why his Focus was up for sale towards the end of last year!
Agreed Ally, same on the post running here on PH. In other news BTRDA driver and Superbike team owner Paul Bird has been banned for evading a drugs test. It would explain why his Focus was up for sale towards the end of last year!
I welcome a Hybrid system, as I said on last years thread (i think, might've been a FB post) they could utilise it for launch, and use it for the liaison sections between stages, and for a portion of the road route from/too service. M-Sport might actually have an advantage for once as they are currently setting up and running the Jag IPace that races before the FE races!
Lifetime ban for Bird now isn't it? There's evading a test and then there's jumping in your helicopter and f
king off from the venue to avoid it Bird got 8 years, for some reason seems to take performance enhancing stuff, probably something to do with concentration or something.
So to Tommi vs Colin. It is results that matter, I would rather have 4 titles than one, as would anyone surely? Both were amazing.
And for the pathetic jibing on here, grow a pair for goodness sake. Its comment, just disagree if you want, no need to be so uppity.
So to Tommi vs Colin. It is results that matter, I would rather have 4 titles than one, as would anyone surely? Both were amazing.
And for the pathetic jibing on here, grow a pair for goodness sake. Its comment, just disagree if you want, no need to be so uppity.
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