Discussion
Such a shame but it really needed to be made more of the F1 "package". I did wonder if that was the short term business model, to try and sell to Liberty and cash out.
The Porsche Supercup is great in it's own right but I never saw the relevance to a weekend of open wheeled racing. Personally a Sunday of F2, F3 and W Series would be the perfect warm up to the main event.
The Porsche Supercup is great in it's own right but I never saw the relevance to a weekend of open wheeled racing. Personally a Sunday of F2, F3 and W Series would be the perfect warm up to the main event.
Can someone explain the finances behind this (thankfully spellcheck saved me from writing fiancé’s !).
How could this series make money?
As per Joe Sawards comments from when it was first launched there is no need for a women’s only series they should have set something up to help get female drivers into the top level series.
A funding ladder across all the junior series leading up to a drive in Gp2/3 or GT.
If it’s gone bust already who is owed money and who put money in to get it going ?
Was Briatore involved ? it’s right up his street this mess!
How could this series make money?
As per Joe Sawards comments from when it was first launched there is no need for a women’s only series they should have set something up to help get female drivers into the top level series.
A funding ladder across all the junior series leading up to a drive in Gp2/3 or GT.
If it’s gone bust already who is owed money and who put money in to get it going ?
Was Briatore involved ? it’s right up his street this mess!
rallycross said:
Can someone explain the finances behind this (thankfully spellcheck saved me from writing fiancé’s !).
How could this series make money?
As per Joe Sawards comments from when it was first launched there is no need for a women’s only series they should have set something up to help get female drivers into the top level series.
A funding ladder across all the junior series leading up to a drive in Gp2/3 or GT.
If it’s gone bust already who is owed money and who put money in to get it going ?
Was Briatore involved ? it’s right up his street this mess!
It was an interesting business model, unlike anything motor racing has seen before.How could this series make money?
As per Joe Sawards comments from when it was first launched there is no need for a women’s only series they should have set something up to help get female drivers into the top level series.
A funding ladder across all the junior series leading up to a drive in Gp2/3 or GT.
If it’s gone bust already who is owed money and who put money in to get it going ?
Was Briatore involved ? it’s right up his street this mess!
The cars are cheap and standard Tatuus “F3 regional” cars, come in around £100k each plus spares.
They have one ‘team’ of mechanics running all the cars, so they use a lot fewer staff than a traditional series of two-car and three-car teams. The logistics is easier too, they use fewer lorries. Each driver has a race engineer assigned from a pool, for the weekend.
Their income is pretty much entirely from TV rights, with the deals brokered by David Couthard and Whisper Productions, using the novelty of all all-female series to attract broadcasters. Uniquely, the drivers weren’t expected to bring money to the team, being selected by ability at a test event. This year they have allowed external sponsorship for the first time, but it’s unclear how much money is involved. Given that one of the team sponsors is a chain of car dealerships in the UK, likely to be in the low six figures per car.
Where I think they messed up, was in doing the fly-away races, especially when supporting the F1 event, which incur huge expenses. Take Singapore as an example, they had to fly 18 cars there, then put 100 or so people on flights and in hotels, in the world’s most expensive city that weekend. That single weekend is going to run close to the cost of half a dozen European races with road transport and camping.
The prize money, while $500k for the winner sound like a lot, wasn’t close to enough for an FIA F3 drive (especially if you buy a nice flat in London, hey Jamie) which is the obvious progression. They should have done a deal with one of the F3 teams, so that the prize was a drive for the following season.
Apparently, the WS management are hoping to be back on the grid next year. It’s a shame they had to curtail this season, for what’s probably only a couple of million. There should be enough money around motorsport, to make it work if they want it to.
The other option, is to set up some sort of a foundation to support women through the usual pyramid, but that will mean spending a lot of money on F4 and regional F3 drivers, who won’t be on mainstream TV.
Sandpit Steve said:
...
They have one ‘team’ of mechanics running all the cars...
Not unlike 'Formula Palmer Audi' back in the 90s (or was it early 00s?)They have one ‘team’ of mechanics running all the cars...
In other lady driver news from this weekend, competing on a level playing field (open to everyone with a healthy bank balance) elsewhere, I see that Ashton Harrison (off of one of Hoonigan's Find a Lady Driver youtube series) has won the Pro-Am championship in one of the SRO series Stateside (GT World Challenge America of similar?) and Doriane Pin from the Iron Dames won the overall Ferrari Challenge Europe.
Truckosaurus said:
Sandpit Steve said:
...
They have one ‘team’ of mechanics running all the cars...
Not unlike 'Formula Palmer Audi' back in the 90s (or was it early 00s?)They have one ‘team’ of mechanics running all the cars...
In other lady driver news from this weekend, competing on a level playing field (open to everyone with a healthy bank balance) elsewhere, I see that Ashton Harrison (off of one of Hoonigan's Find a Lady Driver youtube series) has won the Pro-Am championship in one of the SRO series Stateside (GT World Challenge America of similar?) and Doriane Pin from the Iron Dames won the overall Ferrari Challenge Europe.
Good to hear of the two ladies that had a good weekend. I did notice previously that Pin was having a good season in the Ferrari Challenge, nice that she won overall.
LukeBrown66 said:
Can't think of anything more boring to be honest. Close racing but utterly dull sounding and looking cars
All series with cars that look and sound exactly the same, but this seem to be fine for most people, so it must work!!
Good point tbf, last time I watched the junior single seater formulae by choice it was GP2 of the late-00s. Those screaming V8s, incomparable to the boring crap-sounding cars of today.... even better, F3000 of the late-90s/early-00s - those Judd V8s sounded the mutt's nuts All series with cars that look and sound exactly the same, but this seem to be fine for most people, so it must work!!
LukeBrown66 said:
Can't think of anything more boring to be honest. Close racing but utterly dull sounding and looking cars
All series with cars that look and sound exactly the same, but this seem to be fine for most people, so it must work!!
I am inclined to agree - how I miss the aural diversity of past F1 when some years one could hear V8 , V10 and V12 engines in the same race. That said ,on my first GP visit for years I enjoyed the sound of current FIA F3 cars - a lovely NA V6 howl . Not that I found the current crop of F1 cars as bad as they sound on TV - they are ok under power , if a bit wheezy on the overrun. All series with cars that look and sound exactly the same, but this seem to be fine for most people, so it must work!!
But spec formulae , at heart , are dull as ditch water . The only two that really worked for me are M1 Procars and TVR Tuscans .
The problem is that when you win the title, you should be made to move on. The series started in 2019 and the only winner has been Chadwick. It's the Schumacher or Hamilton problem. Once it becomes predictable, then it becomes unpopular.
Once you have won the championship, you can say that you are the best female driver. A seat should then be found in F3 and F2, and see how you fair there. If you win those, then the likelihood of an F1 drive increases, because you are competing in genuine feeder series' with genuine future F1 candidates.
Once you have won the championship, you can say that you are the best female driver. A seat should then be found in F3 and F2, and see how you fair there. If you win those, then the likelihood of an F1 drive increases, because you are competing in genuine feeder series' with genuine future F1 candidates.
Personally, I still think W Series could have a very strong future.
Two important factors:
- The massive global pressure on all sports to be seen to be diverse and inclusive, with motorsport, in particular, currently being far too male dominated
- The mainstream media coverage W Series seems to be able to generate. Only F1 appears to get more mainstream attention. Most other motorsport is in the shadows.
It may need reinventing, it may need new management, it obviously needs better financial re-structuring, but, in one form or another, I would expect it to continue.
Not as a segregated sport, but as a specific formula for giving more females a route into motorsport.
Does need more talent though.
Two important factors:
- The massive global pressure on all sports to be seen to be diverse and inclusive, with motorsport, in particular, currently being far too male dominated
- The mainstream media coverage W Series seems to be able to generate. Only F1 appears to get more mainstream attention. Most other motorsport is in the shadows.
It may need reinventing, it may need new management, it obviously needs better financial re-structuring, but, in one form or another, I would expect it to continue.
Not as a segregated sport, but as a specific formula for giving more females a route into motorsport.
Does need more talent though.
The problems are multiple and not strictly limited to motorsport.
Then only sport I know of that has male and female people taking part equally is equestrianism, and the main reason for that is that horse riding as a youth is very much more popular with girls, yet there are men that compete and still beat women, but in that sport they compete equally in all aspects and the talent pool is spread more equally.
That is in a pursuit far, far more likely to attract women than racing cars, bikes or anything else, and although far superior in numbers the winning is not ALL women, some men win and indeed have done over many years despite probably competing against a vastly higher percentage of women, just like women do in Motorsport.
So the issue is not equality it is in trying to get women taking the sport up at a young age, so why is FW aimed at women older than that? Role models you might say, pump a few million at it get it on telly it must work, no that is blunt and a dumb, useless, typically male approach, it takes more than tv to turn girls on to this as this shambolic series has proved.
tThe aim of it was to propel women into f1 or higher level single seaters, one woman dominated and has since proved unlikely to succeed in top level single seater racing despite trying, she is not quick enough. There are no women quick enough in single seaters to progress into GP2 or 3 and potentially win. All that have tried have been average or worse. Nothing wrong with that lots of men are too, but if a series is going to try and propel they need to find a real talent,
Are there any women doing so, yes Iron Dames in GT racing, they are up front in both WEC Am and ELMS where they have been very unlucky not to win rounds, they share the driving, and have proved to be just as quick as their male team mates in the same car and all their competition.
WHY in Gods names are these FW cretins not pushing that agenda?
I'll tell you why it is because the brainless morons who came up with it with no research or thought, just wanted to be the ones who created something, like a woman getting into F1, then sell that idea all over the world, it was a business idea not a sporting one.
Then only sport I know of that has male and female people taking part equally is equestrianism, and the main reason for that is that horse riding as a youth is very much more popular with girls, yet there are men that compete and still beat women, but in that sport they compete equally in all aspects and the talent pool is spread more equally.
That is in a pursuit far, far more likely to attract women than racing cars, bikes or anything else, and although far superior in numbers the winning is not ALL women, some men win and indeed have done over many years despite probably competing against a vastly higher percentage of women, just like women do in Motorsport.
So the issue is not equality it is in trying to get women taking the sport up at a young age, so why is FW aimed at women older than that? Role models you might say, pump a few million at it get it on telly it must work, no that is blunt and a dumb, useless, typically male approach, it takes more than tv to turn girls on to this as this shambolic series has proved.
tThe aim of it was to propel women into f1 or higher level single seaters, one woman dominated and has since proved unlikely to succeed in top level single seater racing despite trying, she is not quick enough. There are no women quick enough in single seaters to progress into GP2 or 3 and potentially win. All that have tried have been average or worse. Nothing wrong with that lots of men are too, but if a series is going to try and propel they need to find a real talent,
Are there any women doing so, yes Iron Dames in GT racing, they are up front in both WEC Am and ELMS where they have been very unlucky not to win rounds, they share the driving, and have proved to be just as quick as their male team mates in the same car and all their competition.
WHY in Gods names are these FW cretins not pushing that agenda?
I'll tell you why it is because the brainless morons who came up with it with no research or thought, just wanted to be the ones who created something, like a woman getting into F1, then sell that idea all over the world, it was a business idea not a sporting one.
It always seemed like a stupid idea.
There will be women who've competed in W series that have had opportunities a man (or boy) with comparable skill levels could only dream of.
Nice gravy train for them all for a few years I suppose and Chadwick has presumably made $1.5m in prize money alone.
There will be women who've competed in W series that have had opportunities a man (or boy) with comparable skill levels could only dream of.
Nice gravy train for them all for a few years I suppose and Chadwick has presumably made $1.5m in prize money alone.
ChocolateFrog said:
It always seemed like a stupid idea.
There will be women who've competed in W series that have had opportunities a man (or boy) with comparable skill levels could only dream of.
Nice gravy train for them all for a few years I suppose and Chadwick has presumably made $1.5m in prize money alone.
$1.5m which would buy a season in GP3 or with additional sponsorship GP2. I'm not singling out Jamie Chadwick specifically but I think a lot of young drivers lack the commitment to get to the top. Take the likes of Irvine, McCarthey, Crawford, Blundell etc they amongst many many other REALLY REALLY wanted it. Sleeping in very old Caravans and doing anything to raise money I don't get that impression now.There will be women who've competed in W series that have had opportunities a man (or boy) with comparable skill levels could only dream of.
Nice gravy train for them all for a few years I suppose and Chadwick has presumably made $1.5m in prize money alone.
Thundersports said:
ChocolateFrog said:
It always seemed like a stupid idea.
There will be women who've competed in W series that have had opportunities a man (or boy) with comparable skill levels could only dream of.
Nice gravy train for them all for a few years I suppose and Chadwick has presumably made $1.5m in prize money alone.
$1.5m which would buy a season in GP3 or with additional sponsorship GP2. I'm not singling out Jamie Chadwick specifically but I think a lot of young drivers lack the commitment to get to the top. Take the likes of Irvine, McCarthey, Crawford, Blundell etc they amongst many many other REALLY REALLY wanted it. Sleeping in very old Caravans and doing anything to raise money I don't get that impression now.There will be women who've competed in W series that have had opportunities a man (or boy) with comparable skill levels could only dream of.
Nice gravy train for them all for a few years I suppose and Chadwick has presumably made $1.5m in prize money alone.
As for W... have to be careful as there's too many people wanting to be triggered today but as a race series it just felt in-organic and unauthentic and just kind of icky to me, more like a novelty show than a celebration. What poster luke brown said on the previous page about the old man business model was probably right, it's a meeting of entrepreneurial BS meets elitist privilege with no idea how the world really works meets a social-justice movement it desperately feels it needs to appease/capitalise. Saddest day was when Michele Moulton - and you don't get more pro-women/listen to what this person has to say in Motorsport than that bird - went from saying what she thought to winding her neck in and supporting the series, as directed by the men in charge...
Sandpit Steve said:
Where I think they messed up, was in doing the fly-away races, especially when supporting the F1 event, which incur huge expenses. Take Singapore as an example, they had to fly 18 cars there, then put 100 or so people on flights and in hotels, in the world’s most expensive city that weekend. That single weekend is going to run close to the cost of half a dozen European races with road transport and camping.
Those behind it have massive delusions of grandeur and it has come back to bite them on the backside. They are running what is in reality a national F4 level series but are trying to emulate what far greater & prestigious series have, even though they have this because they are the pinnacle of that particular type of racing rather than being one of many smaller series underneath. WRC & ERC are a good example.Sandpit Steve said:
The prize money, while $500k for the winner sound like a lot, wasn’t close to enough for an FIA F3 drive (especially if you buy a nice flat in London, hey Jamie) which is the obvious progression. They should have done a deal with one of the F3 teams, so that the prize was a drive for the following season.
It still far exceeds what champions in higher series receive, which is evidently one of the reasons W Series is in trouble financially. Really F3 is not the next stage from W Series anyway, given that it has predominantly F4 or lower quality drivers in it, a real F3 Regional series would be the next step, then to F3.People keep saying that they should have done a deal with a F3 team, but what exactly would have been in it is for the F3 team?
It has been shown that Chadwick was not really up to F3 Regional standard when she did FREC so they would be stuck with a driver not in F3 on merit that would struggle greatly. That is before you then factor in the drivers worse than Chadwick that they would also get lumbered with, as once Chadwick moved on, one of the lesser drivers would take the top spot instead of her.
Sandpit Steve said:
Apparently, the WS management are hoping to be back on the grid next year. It’s a shame they had to curtail this season, for what’s probably only a couple of million. There should be enough money around motorsport, to make it work if they want it to.
If it needed a couple of mil to see out the season then it seriously needs to curtail it's expenses. At this point it will likely be over £8m in debt so it would just be a drop in the ocean, it would be literally wasting money for no reason. Given what happened at the final race, it would appear it that it has some pretty big creditors, the scaled back TV coverage suggests that they owe FOM a considerable amount so they scaled it back due to non-payment.Sandpit Steve said:
The other option, is to set up some sort of a foundation to support women through the usual pyramid, but that will mean spending a lot of money on F4 and regional F3 drivers, who won’t be on mainstream TV.
Isn't this exactly what they are doing now? The W Series grid is made up of drivers that have yet to drive in F4, drivers that have done F4, a few that have driven at F3 Regional level & a couple of drivers that did GP3 years ago.The expectation & desire for this series to be on mainstream TV is one of the reason why it is a financial failure, it wants to be something far greater than it will ever be, it is a junior feeder series at the bottom of the ladder acting as if it is a top level series. Even F3 & F2 don't try as hard in this regard and they are the feeder series to F1.
It should have remained as a support series to DTM or attempted to join the TOCA package, acting in a similar manner to series around it on the ladder.. Kept to a more sustainable and cost effective calendar rather than jetting around the world trying to act important.
LucyP said:
The problem is that when you win the title, you should be made to move on. The series started in 2019 and the only winner has been Chadwick. It's the Schumacher or Hamilton problem. Once it becomes predictable, then it becomes unpopular.
Once you have won the championship, you can say that you are the best female driver. A seat should then be found in F3 and F2, and see how you fair there. If you win those, then the likelihood of an F1 drive increases, because you are competing in genuine feeder series' with genuine future F1 candidates.
I wouldn't call it the Schumacher/Hamilton problem per se, because I doubt it ever had a great following to begin with that would be lost due to this. The support for this series is primarily ideological rather as a result of the quality of the racing so I doubt one driver being head and shoulders above the rest made any real difference.Once you have won the championship, you can say that you are the best female driver. A seat should then be found in F3 and F2, and see how you fair there. If you win those, then the likelihood of an F1 drive increases, because you are competing in genuine feeder series' with genuine future F1 candidates.
Winning this series in no way means you can claim to be the best female racing driver either. This series features the worst female racing drivers, not the best.
The best drivers such as Legge, de Silvestro, Floersch, Mann etc all succeeded in motorsport without needing to drive in a low quality series exclusively for female racing drivers. They competed in real series against real competition and surpassed the level of competition featured in W Series.
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