What happened to rally?
Discussion
Having been a fan of rallying on and off since the early 80's it has changed somewhat in recent years.
Is certainly still popular, especially in certain places like Ireland. But the changes no access have made it more difficult to maybe pick a local event to pop along to.
Not everyone wants to get involved in an official capacity, they might not have the time or interest at the level.
I used to see families out at events years ago, you don't see that anymore. It is good and bad I guess, no danger to them, but also no real chance for them to see something local if they live far away from more popular areas.
I think for small events spectators are just something the clubs could do without, they are an extra pain. So you can see why they and the landowners are not keen.
For rallying to survive it needs venues, a lot of those venues are restricted, but also it needs to be accessible to survive, it still is, but just not in the ways it was. And that will inevitably have an impact down the line.
Is certainly still popular, especially in certain places like Ireland. But the changes no access have made it more difficult to maybe pick a local event to pop along to.
Not everyone wants to get involved in an official capacity, they might not have the time or interest at the level.
I used to see families out at events years ago, you don't see that anymore. It is good and bad I guess, no danger to them, but also no real chance for them to see something local if they live far away from more popular areas.
I think for small events spectators are just something the clubs could do without, they are an extra pain. So you can see why they and the landowners are not keen.
For rallying to survive it needs venues, a lot of those venues are restricted, but also it needs to be accessible to survive, it still is, but just not in the ways it was. And that will inevitably have an impact down the line.
billybob1971 said:
Having been a fan of rallying on and off since the early 80's it has changed somewhat in recent years.
Is certainly still popular, especially in certain places like Ireland. But the changes no access have made it more difficult to maybe pick a local event to pop along to.
Not everyone wants to get involved in an official capacity, they might not have the time or interest at the level.
I used to see families out at events years ago, you don't see that anymore. It is good and bad I guess, no danger to them, but also no real chance for them to see something local if they live far away from more popular areas.
I think for small events spectators are just something the clubs could do without, they are an extra pain. So you can see why they and the landowners are not keen.
For rallying to survive it needs venues, a lot of those venues are restricted, but also it needs to be accessible to survive, it still is, but just not in the ways it was. And that will inevitably have an impact down the line.
Lots of great points Billybob, a couple to think about:Is certainly still popular, especially in certain places like Ireland. But the changes no access have made it more difficult to maybe pick a local event to pop along to.
Not everyone wants to get involved in an official capacity, they might not have the time or interest at the level.
I used to see families out at events years ago, you don't see that anymore. It is good and bad I guess, no danger to them, but also no real chance for them to see something local if they live far away from more popular areas.
I think for small events spectators are just something the clubs could do without, they are an extra pain. So you can see why they and the landowners are not keen.
For rallying to survive it needs venues, a lot of those venues are restricted, but also it needs to be accessible to survive, it still is, but just not in the ways it was. And that will inevitably have an impact down the line.
billybob1971 said:
Is certainly still popular, especially in certain places like Ireland.
andbillybob1971 said:
but also it needs to be accessible to survive
These are linked - I think fundamentally this is down to the significant rallies in Ireland all using closed public roads and has been for decades. Hence the rally comes to the people. In addition, there's been plenty of money around to fund local drivers in very good machinery. Where that money comes from......Anyway, in the main, closed road rallying has only been permitted in mainland GB for the last year or so. The rallies that have been run to that format are very popular, but of course it'll take some time for the interest to cause an upturn in participation.
An example is the Tour of Mull / Mull Rally. Started in 1969, to paraphrase the words of the founder of the event, Brian Molyneux "there was only one person on the island with any interest in rallying". 11 years later, a local crew (born & bred) won the rally, beating some of the best in the country and went on to win another 11 times.
Now, as we look to the 50th anniversary this October, the event is over-subscribed for the 150 places, local drivers have won every year but three since it switched to closed roads in 1990. All the island accommodation is booked months in advance. Local Mull drivers have gone on to compete all over the country with a lot of success and overseas. This year's Mull Rally will probably have 20-25 local crews, out of a population of around 3000. Most of those are also competing in other parts of the country this year.
I've been to small rallies in France, Belgium and Spain, all on closed public roads. And in every case there have been lots of spectators - mainly local people having a garden party / bbq etc.
So in my view, the future for rallying in this country is fully linked to the success of closed road rallying.
Agreed, and that in part is a small issue, as it is only likely to succeed in lightly populated, perhaps farming areas where there are less locals and less tourists.
Saying that, if you can have an event near Clacton maybe this is not as big a deal.
I would think places like Norfolk, Northumberland, Lincolnshire would be ideal, I seem to recall seeing footage of events in the 80's that looked like they used asphalt roads, but perhaps they must have been private farm roads.
Saying that, if you can have an event near Clacton maybe this is not as big a deal.
I would think places like Norfolk, Northumberland, Lincolnshire would be ideal, I seem to recall seeing footage of events in the 80's that looked like they used asphalt roads, but perhaps they must have been private farm roads.
Dynion Araf Uchaf said:
it would be useful for rallying's popularity if the Wales Rally GB did the Sunday spectator stages, and visited the stately homes of midlands and northern towns.
Oulton Park is on the route this year so it'll be interesting to see how popular that is.
The Wales Rally GB (or whatever it will soon become) will never go back to how it was. It would be to much of an endurance event for modern laws to allow. When we used to do the old Lombeard RAC, sleep became very much a luxury. Whilst the crews had certain rest times, those of us "running" the event just moved from location to location. As much as I loved doing this, when I look back on it now I realise that we were pushing the envelope on what was safe driving with little sleep. Oulton Park is on the route this year so it'll be interesting to see how popular that is.
billybob1971 said:
Agreed, and that in part is a small issue, as it is only likely to succeed in lightly populated, perhaps farming areas where there are less locals and less tourists.
Saying that, if you can have an event near Clacton maybe this is not as big a deal.
I would think places like Norfolk, Northumberland, Lincolnshire would be ideal, I seem to recall seeing footage of events in the 80's that looked like they used asphalt roads, but perhaps they must have been private farm roads.
The all circuit rally series was hugely popular at Snetts, Croft and Cadwell this year. Big crowds, and willing to pay an entry fee. For clubs, run by volunteers, this is a much much easier prospect than an open road rally and costs more certain / managable.Saying that, if you can have an event near Clacton maybe this is not as big a deal.
I would think places like Norfolk, Northumberland, Lincolnshire would be ideal, I seem to recall seeing footage of events in the 80's that looked like they used asphalt roads, but perhaps they must have been private farm roads.
Hyundai boss was interviewed by Racecar magazine in the current edition. Said that everyone needs to realise that we're not in the 1980s anymore and we're now in 2019, times have changed.
df76 said:
The all circuit rally series was hugely popular at Snetts, Croft and Cadwell this year. Big crowds, and willing to pay an entry fee. For clubs, run by volunteers, this is a much much easier prospect than an open road rally and costs more certain / managable.
Hyundai boss was interviewed by Racecar magazine in the current edition. Said that everyone needs to realise that we're not in the 1980s anymore and we're now in 2019, times have changed.
The problem is that the clubs have to hire the circuits, even though the title sponsor owns them. They also get none of the gate receipts (this is the same for all circuit events in the UK) Hyundai boss was interviewed by Racecar magazine in the current edition. Said that everyone needs to realise that we're not in the 1980s anymore and we're now in 2019, times have changed.
Drumroll said:
df76 said:
The all circuit rally series was hugely popular at Snetts, Croft and Cadwell this year. Big crowds, and willing to pay an entry fee. For clubs, run by volunteers, this is a much much easier prospect than an open road rally and costs more certain / managable.
Hyundai boss was interviewed by Racecar magazine in the current edition. Said that everyone needs to realise that we're not in the 1980s anymore and we're now in 2019, times have changed.
The problem is that the clubs have to hire the circuits, even though the title sponsor owns them. They also get none of the gate receipts (this is the same for all circuit events in the UK) Hyundai boss was interviewed by Racecar magazine in the current edition. Said that everyone needs to realise that we're not in the 1980s anymore and we're now in 2019, times have changed.
Can't speak for the UK, but rallying is still very popular here in NZ with both competitors and spectators.
For example, there is a local club rally on near me tomorrow - its a regional series round but not national championship. 1 day rally, around 150km of gravel special stages on closed public roads (no repeat stages), 88 cars entered and I'm sure there will be plenty of spectators out as usual despite it being cold and wet.
For example, there is a local club rally on near me tomorrow - its a regional series round but not national championship. 1 day rally, around 150km of gravel special stages on closed public roads (no repeat stages), 88 cars entered and I'm sure there will be plenty of spectators out as usual despite it being cold and wet.
The problem is that most clubs used to run at many venues in the past.
They still could, spectators were never charged, but with the incidents in Scotland they became a viable insurance hazard for the landowner so ti was always discouraged at most venues, and more so after these incidents, so, if you did go to an event, you were not allowed to roam you were basically penned in one area.
Obviously most venues available to clubs are privately owned or things like Mewla or Epynt that can be marshalled properly and accessed easily.
Forests are different, but only affect certain parts of the country, but the rules still apply, you can still be responsible for closing a stage or even cancelling a rally if you are somewhere out of bounds or refuse to move.
Events on the continent are marshalled heavily but in certain places less effectively, but largely, also run on closed roads, which is why this development is so key to the future
They still could, spectators were never charged, but with the incidents in Scotland they became a viable insurance hazard for the landowner so ti was always discouraged at most venues, and more so after these incidents, so, if you did go to an event, you were not allowed to roam you were basically penned in one area.
Obviously most venues available to clubs are privately owned or things like Mewla or Epynt that can be marshalled properly and accessed easily.
Forests are different, but only affect certain parts of the country, but the rules still apply, you can still be responsible for closing a stage or even cancelling a rally if you are somewhere out of bounds or refuse to move.
Events on the continent are marshalled heavily but in certain places less effectively, but largely, also run on closed roads, which is why this development is so key to the future
GravelBen said:
Can't speak for the UK, but rallying is still very popular here in NZ with both competitors and spectators.
For example, there is a local club rally on near me tomorrow - its a regional series round but not national championship. 1 day rally, around 150km of gravel special stages on closed public roads (no repeat stages), 88 cars entered and I'm sure there will be plenty of spectators out as usual despite it being cold and wet.
That's a good comparison - this weekend there is a round of the Scottish Rally Championship (i.e. Regional), the Grampian Forest Rally near Aberdeen.For example, there is a local club rally on near me tomorrow - its a regional series round but not national championship. 1 day rally, around 150km of gravel special stages on closed public roads (no repeat stages), 88 cars entered and I'm sure there will be plenty of spectators out as usual despite it being cold and wet.
1 day - 45 miles (73km) of gravel forest stages (the forests are owned by Forest & Land Scotland, so effectively government-owned and private) for a fee of £625 (approx NZD 1150 v's Catlins Coast NZD 700). they have 73 cars entered. That's much fewer than recent years.
So much much better value for money in New Zealand!
A quick cross check of the entry lists:
Grampian - https://www.rallies.info/webentry/2019/grampian/en...
Catlins Coast - https://www.escc.co.nz/uploads/6/4/0/4/64040323/7-...
I would say in Scotland there is slightly higher spec cars up front and in general more 4WD. What's impressive in NZ is the masses of small 2WDs competing - that is getting rarer and rarer in Scotland in the forests. I would guess that's due to (a) overall its cheaper in NZ and (b) presume the roads don't cut up as badly, being public roads they should be well maintained.
Most small 2WD cars are competing on tarmac in Scotland, rallies on airfields / racetracks / military bases make up the majority of Scottish Tarmac Championship. But entry levels are down everywhere, so much so that there's an open meeting in Scotland to allow everyone to have a voice and try to arrest the decline.
Despite the fact that I would like to see more closed roads rallying in England, I don't see it happening to an extensive extent beyond what is currently close to fruition, or has happened already (Clacton). I really do doubt that the public are open to the perceived disruption of closing roads and the environmental lobby will have a field day. They already have a field day moaning about race circuits, let alone closed road rallying.
One or two events maybe, but it wont be widespread. As an example, there was an outcry recently when a cycle race resulted in closed roads for one day in NW Norfolk.
I have mentioned it a few times to non petrol head friends and the universal response was, "why should we suffer disruption to satisfy the motorsport community, they should stick to the existing race circuits/ venues". Now, here on PH, we understand the difference between racing and rallying but outsiders don't. There may be some areas of the UK where they will appreciate the benefits of rallying to the tourist economy but I suggest that's largely likely to be in Wales, N Ireland, IoM or Scotland, where rallying seems to be more popular. Here in England I suspect that, with the exception of one or two events, we will have to stick to existing venues and the circuits/ airfields that are already in use. Sadly.
One or two events maybe, but it wont be widespread. As an example, there was an outcry recently when a cycle race resulted in closed roads for one day in NW Norfolk.
I have mentioned it a few times to non petrol head friends and the universal response was, "why should we suffer disruption to satisfy the motorsport community, they should stick to the existing race circuits/ venues". Now, here on PH, we understand the difference between racing and rallying but outsiders don't. There may be some areas of the UK where they will appreciate the benefits of rallying to the tourist economy but I suggest that's largely likely to be in Wales, N Ireland, IoM or Scotland, where rallying seems to be more popular. Here in England I suspect that, with the exception of one or two events, we will have to stick to existing venues and the circuits/ airfields that are already in use. Sadly.
Good points Andy - the key to the is the local council.
The residents on the route are consulted, but they do not have powers of veto.
I'm involved in that side of things for an established event, and it's a fair amount of work. Setting up a new one would be a nightmare!
But if a council think the rally is good for the local area, they will push it through.
There's already been the Clacton (twice) and North West Stages (Lancs) - both very successful, and soon to be the Three Shires Stages around Ledbury on 7 Sept. Wales aren't having their first until the Rali Bae Ceredigion on 8 Sept. I would have thought the Welsh would be a head of the game.
There are at least two others in the secret planning stage in England, and 2 in Scotland. Whether they ever come to fruition is anyone's guess.
The residents on the route are consulted, but they do not have powers of veto.
I'm involved in that side of things for an established event, and it's a fair amount of work. Setting up a new one would be a nightmare!
But if a council think the rally is good for the local area, they will push it through.
There's already been the Clacton (twice) and North West Stages (Lancs) - both very successful, and soon to be the Three Shires Stages around Ledbury on 7 Sept. Wales aren't having their first until the Rali Bae Ceredigion on 8 Sept. I would have thought the Welsh would be a head of the game.
There are at least two others in the secret planning stage in England, and 2 in Scotland. Whether they ever come to fruition is anyone's guess.
I think the deal with Wales is that they have good forests and a few of them they can use, it is the centre really for UK rallying, but only really Epynt can be used asphalt wise, so you would have entries.
North West looked fabulous, almost Irtish like stages, Clacton less so, very wide in most places and very repeated, but it is a great start and if you told me 20 years ago the first closed road event would be in Essex I would have laughed!
North West looked fabulous, almost Irtish like stages, Clacton less so, very wide in most places and very repeated, but it is a great start and if you told me 20 years ago the first closed road event would be in Essex I would have laughed!
andy97 said:
Despite the fact that I would like to see more closed roads rallying in England, I don't see it happening to an extensive extent beyond what is currently close to fruition, or has happened already (Clacton). I really do doubt that the public are open to the perceived disruption of closing roads and the environmental lobby will have a field day. They already have a field day moaning about race circuits, let alone closed road rallying.
One can't help but think we should have had 'closed roads' decades ago...but for varying reasons it didn't happen. Hats off to all those who have taken the plunge and organised events on them. thepawbroon said:
Good points Andy - the key to the is the local council.
The residents on the route are consulted, but they do not have powers of veto.
I'm involved in that side of things for an established event, and it's a fair amount of work. Setting up a new one would be a nightmare!
But if a council think the rally is good for the local area, they will push it through.
There's already been the Clacton (twice) and North West Stages (Lancs) - both very successful, and soon to be the Three Shires Stages around Ledbury on 7 Sept. Wales aren't having their first until the Rali Bae Ceredigion on 8 Sept. I would have thought the Welsh would be a head of the game.
There are at least two others in the secret planning stage in England, and 2 in Scotland. Whether they ever come to fruition is anyone's guess.
I’d be interested to see the route of Rali Bae Ceredigion. I’ve just come back from a week in the area and I noticed some odd markings on one road. Somebody had drawn two white circles at a number of locations on straight sections of road. It crossed my mind they would be ideal chicane locations for a closed road stage. I knew Wales had one in the pipeline, but hadn’t realised where.The residents on the route are consulted, but they do not have powers of veto.
I'm involved in that side of things for an established event, and it's a fair amount of work. Setting up a new one would be a nightmare!
But if a council think the rally is good for the local area, they will push it through.
There's already been the Clacton (twice) and North West Stages (Lancs) - both very successful, and soon to be the Three Shires Stages around Ledbury on 7 Sept. Wales aren't having their first until the Rali Bae Ceredigion on 8 Sept. I would have thought the Welsh would be a head of the game.
There are at least two others in the secret planning stage in England, and 2 in Scotland. Whether they ever come to fruition is anyone's guess.
As has been said, they have the roads, they have good support from the community, so it’s a good fit.
Not sure how it will affect the Road Rallying side, but I expect the sport is robust enough to stand both disciplines in Wales.
I was pretty sceptical about that closed roads would be affordable by the clubs, but I seem to be slowly proved wrong. Perhaps we will see one in Yorkshire some time.
velocemitch said:
I’d be interested to see the route of Rali Bae Ceredigion. I’ve just come back from a week in the area and I noticed some odd markings on one road. Somebody had drawn two white circles at a number of locations on straight sections of road. It crossed my mind they would be ideal chicane locations for a closed road stage. I knew Wales had one in the pipeline, but hadn’t realised where.
As has been said, they have the roads, they have good support from the community, so it’s a good fit.
Not sure how it will affect the Road Rallying side, but I expect the sport is robust enough to stand both disciplines in Wales.
I was pretty sceptical about that closed roads would be affordable by the clubs, but I seem to be slowly proved wrong. Perhaps we will see one in Yorkshire some time.
The stage names are Bont-Goch, Nant-y-Moch, Ystumteun and Pendam. So if you were on a yellow near these places, most likely you were on the route. As has been said, they have the roads, they have good support from the community, so it’s a good fit.
Not sure how it will affect the Road Rallying side, but I expect the sport is robust enough to stand both disciplines in Wales.
I was pretty sceptical about that closed roads would be affordable by the clubs, but I seem to be slowly proved wrong. Perhaps we will see one in Yorkshire some time.
Chestrockwell said:
I don’t know a lot about rally so I stand to be corrected or put in place.
I was driving behind an R reg Celica earlier with the biggest mud flaps and white rally like O.Z wheels, it looked pretty cool and reminded me of rally cars years ago, they were interesting and cool, nowadays whenever I stumble onto a rally video, it’s usually a supermini on steriods, Fiestas and i20’s!
What happened to the Impreza’s, EVO’s and Celica’s...or should I say, the bigger cars.
Surely it’s better marketing and a better way to sell said cars to the public as special edition or rally editions.
What is the purpose of rally cars becoming a lot smaller
Modern cars have just got a lot bigger. Compare a modern day Fiesta to a Mk2 Escort or Chevette HS, so the Fiestas suit the rally stages better then their bigger brothers.I was driving behind an R reg Celica earlier with the biggest mud flaps and white rally like O.Z wheels, it looked pretty cool and reminded me of rally cars years ago, they were interesting and cool, nowadays whenever I stumble onto a rally video, it’s usually a supermini on steriods, Fiestas and i20’s!
What happened to the Impreza’s, EVO’s and Celica’s...or should I say, the bigger cars.
Surely it’s better marketing and a better way to sell said cars to the public as special edition or rally editions.
What is the purpose of rally cars becoming a lot smaller
It isn't even as if the manufacturers sell rally sport variants of the cars they rally, because the margins aren't there, so they sell Focus RS, Golf R and Hyundai i30N on the back of rally success.
Back in the day I had a Sunbeam Ti, looked like a rally car because it was, don't get that these days.
thepawbroon said:
velocemitch said:
I’d be interested to see the route of Rali Bae Ceredigion. I’ve just come back from a week in the area and I noticed some odd markings on one road. Somebody had drawn two white circles at a number of locations on straight sections of road. It crossed my mind they would be ideal chicane locations for a closed road stage. I knew Wales had one in the pipeline, but hadn’t realised where.
As has been said, they have the roads, they have good support from the community, so it’s a good fit.
Not sure how it will affect the Road Rallying side, but I expect the sport is robust enough to stand both disciplines in Wales.
I was pretty sceptical about that closed roads would be affordable by the clubs, but I seem to be slowly proved wrong. Perhaps we will see one in Yorkshire some time.
The stage names are Bont-Goch, Nant-y-Moch, Ystumteun and Pendam. So if you were on a yellow near these places, most likely you were on the route. As has been said, they have the roads, they have good support from the community, so it’s a good fit.
Not sure how it will affect the Road Rallying side, but I expect the sport is robust enough to stand both disciplines in Wales.
I was pretty sceptical about that closed roads would be affordable by the clubs, but I seem to be slowly proved wrong. Perhaps we will see one in Yorkshire some time.
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