2020 Rallying Thread (WRC, ERC and national rally)
Discussion
Dynion Araf Uchaf said:
yes a good result. But with the previous poster's comments about Sardinia being a COVID hotspot, I am going to say that Elfyn will become the 'champion that never was' as if Sardinia is cancelled, and he wins the title that's not enough rounds to be completed to become WRC, So he'll be given the title of FIA Drivers champion or something.
Rumours are they are trying to line up the Monza rally as a final round of the championship. Would be unusual to have a single venue Rally in the WRC. Ypres will epic (if it happens). Evans goes well on tarmac, would be very odd if by Ypres Ogier was playing the support role to Evans!!
DelicaL400 said:
I think there are far too many involved with heads stuck in the sand for it to happen.
In my experience, that issue pervades the whole of rallying, whether it be organisers, competitors or the governing body. There are a few notable exceptions, and these can be clearly identified (they are mostly around closed-road rallies, circuit rallies and targas) but in the main the attitude of "we've always done it like that" is a barrier to event development and to welcoming new blood.An example - I was at an event meeting once where the Radio Officer (female) had asked, on behalf of some female marshals, for a portaloo to be situated at the remote end of the venue, to allow them to visit during the gap between stages. Rather than wait till lunchbreak and walk the mile or so to the service area. The request was quite rudely declined by the rally manager because "we've never had one before". Bear in mind the cost was about £100 and the event makes a substantial profit. I tried to mediate but was shouted down because I was "coming in here trying the change things."
Surprise surprise that event has put out a plea for people to take over, because "we are all getting older and nobody is helping".
thepawbroon said:
An example - I was at an event meeting once where the Radio Officer (female) had asked, on behalf of some female marshals, for a portaloo to be situated at the remote end of the venue, to allow them to visit during the gap between stages. Rather than wait till lunchbreak and walk the mile or so to the service area. The request was quite rudely declined by the rally manager because "we've never had one before".
And one incident like that means that those people, and potentially any friends that they might've encouraged to come and help/become competitors, could be lost to the sport forever.A few years ago a young lad asked me how he could get involved in helping organise events. I passed on his details to an organising team, telling them he was willing to help in any aspect. "We don't need any help" was the response I got from the team, whose average age was around 70! The events they were involved in now don't exist. I really don't get the mentality that some would rather see events die rather than facilitate their future by encouraging younger folk to be involved.
As you say, there are a few exceptions and these folk are doing a brilliant job, being proactive and innovative to ensure they have competitors, helpers and land to run on.
Have to admit, this is the approach and reaction I have had numerous times with dealing with people at these type of events, they look down on people too much, especially fans, as you are just a problem, and in the way.
I get it I really do, but marshals are occasionally the same I am sorry to say, I certainly would not admit to experiencing regular great ones, they a
re a mixed bag and all too often unfriendly and unhelpful, even to basic questions.
As a kid I tried it, was treated like a 5 year old by a bunch of litter Hitlers and realised it was not for me, never again, and this is something I have experienced a few times in motorsport events of all types. Sadly things like clubs tend to bring out these types.
Not commonly, but enough to put me off EVER getting involved in anything but watching or competing.
I get it I really do, but marshals are occasionally the same I am sorry to say, I certainly would not admit to experiencing regular great ones, they a
re a mixed bag and all too often unfriendly and unhelpful, even to basic questions.
As a kid I tried it, was treated like a 5 year old by a bunch of litter Hitlers and realised it was not for me, never again, and this is something I have experienced a few times in motorsport events of all types. Sadly things like clubs tend to bring out these types.
Not commonly, but enough to put me off EVER getting involved in anything but watching or competing.
ArnageWRC said:
Have to agree with that; there are a lot of well meaning volunteers involved; however, some see it as their personal fiefdom....and it is their way or not at all. Hence why a lot of the sport is still in the 70/80s......
having been involved with a motor club in the past and being booted out ( but that's another story) for me the biggest issue with Motor club types and those that organise club rallies is not that they are ageing people but that they are the type of people ( with a few exceptions) who are not exceptional in any other walk of their lives, They do lower level jobs, such as if they work in science they are lab technicians, if the work in finance, they're book keepers, if they work in architecture they're draughtsmen. There's nothing wrong with this per se, however these type of people are not risk takers, they're not entrepreneurial and they like things to be 'the same' So when you start changing or attempting to change rallying they are up in arms about it as it is change they don't like. Not all Motor club people are like this, but a lot are. And then when they get a bit of power and become a clerk of the course, it goes to their head because they are not used to leadership in any other format.IMHO, it is time MUK absolved clubs from organising rallies, maybe they could set up a team of 6 or so who organise all rallies in the UK, and that these are limited to 30-40 per year across the various levels. With a bit of coordintation and a paid role then this might be the launch pad to change and modernise rallying by removing the plodders in their shackles!
Dynion Araf Uchaf said:
ArnageWRC said:
Have to agree with that; there are a lot of well meaning volunteers involved; however, some see it as their personal fiefdom....and it is their way or not at all. Hence why a lot of the sport is still in the 70/80s......
having been involved with a motor club in the past and being booted out ( but that's another story) for me the biggest issue with Motor club types and those that organise club rallies is not that they are ageing people but that they are the type of people ( with a few exceptions) who are not exceptional in any other walk of their lives, They do lower level jobs, such as if they work in science they are lab technicians, if the work in finance, they're book keepers, if they work in architecture they're draughtsmen. There's nothing wrong with this per se, however these type of people are not risk takers, they're not entrepreneurial and they like things to be 'the same' So when you start changing or attempting to change rallying they are up in arms about it as it is change they don't like. Not all Motor club people are like this, but a lot are. And then when they get a bit of power and become a clerk of the course, it goes to their head because they are not used to leadership in any other format.IMHO, it is time MUK absolved clubs from organising rallies, maybe they could set up a team of 6 or so who organise all rallies in the UK, and that these are limited to 30-40 per year across the various levels. With a bit of coordintation and a paid role then this might be the launch pad to change and modernise rallying by removing the plodders in their shackles!
Rallying in the UK is very club oriented, and will take a lot to change that. All that will happen if you just "parachute" in people at the top, many others will walk.
Who will pay for all this? Ultimately it will be the competitors, who already complain about the costs.
club racing is club oriented.
as for paying for professional organisers, even in my limited experience, a little SV can make a couple of grand ( I think it was 7k profit for the OMC for the Carfax) and I think the one in Aldershot multi venue was something like 20k. So the team at MUK would be self funding, and as they would control all the event there would be fewer events so more likely to mitigate the risk of not having enough competitors enter. Realistically you need maybe three people to organise a rally, the rest is volunteer marshals, medics, timekeepers etc. I think it is very do able but require some coordination from MUK and some 'seed money' to get it started - which they have.
as for paying for professional organisers, even in my limited experience, a little SV can make a couple of grand ( I think it was 7k profit for the OMC for the Carfax) and I think the one in Aldershot multi venue was something like 20k. So the team at MUK would be self funding, and as they would control all the event there would be fewer events so more likely to mitigate the risk of not having enough competitors enter. Realistically you need maybe three people to organise a rally, the rest is volunteer marshals, medics, timekeepers etc. I think it is very do able but require some coordination from MUK and some 'seed money' to get it started - which they have.
Dynion Araf Uchaf said:
having been involved with a motor club in the past and being booted out ( but that's another story) for me the biggest issue with Motor club types and those that organise club rallies is not that they are ageing people but that they are the type of people ( with a few exceptions) who are not exceptional in any other walk of their lives, They do lower level jobs, such as if they work in science they are lab technicians, if the work in finance, they're book keepers, if they work in architecture they're draughtsmen. There's nothing wrong with this per se, however these type of people are not risk takers, they're not entrepreneurial and they like things to be 'the same' So when you start changing or attempting to change rallying they are up in arms about it as it is change they don't like. Not all Motor club people are like this, but a lot are. And then when they get a bit of power and become a clerk of the course, it goes to their head because they are not used to leadership in any other format.
IMHO, it is time MUK absolved clubs from organising rallies, maybe they could set up a team of 6 or so who organise all rallies in the UK, and that these are limited to 30-40 per year across the various levels. With a bit of coordintation and a paid role then this might be the launch pad to change and modernise rallying by removing the plodders in their shackles!
I would agree that there is a certain amount of truth in what you say - the personality trait might come from the incredible amount of regulation that the Clerk of the Course is expected to memorise, and follow. Those skills tend to be held by introverts.IMHO, it is time MUK absolved clubs from organising rallies, maybe they could set up a team of 6 or so who organise all rallies in the UK, and that these are limited to 30-40 per year across the various levels. With a bit of coordintation and a paid role then this might be the launch pad to change and modernise rallying by removing the plodders in their shackles!
I think the ideal situation is where you have three separate roles:
Event Director - the figurehead, the optimist, holds the relationship with the sponsors and commercial stakeholders.
Event Manager - the project manager, who's main job is to make everyone deliver on their roles in the prep phase. Team leader.
Clerk of the Course - technically running the sporting side, no commercial involvement other than (e.g.) agreeing the safety resources cost.
Too many events have the CoC doing all three roles combined, which in my experience is not effective. In addition, the CoC must be licenced, and there is a dearth of decent licenced CoCs, so they get spread thin over many events.
Dynion Araf Uchaf said:
club racing is club oriented.
as for paying for professional organisers, even in my limited experience, a little SV can make a couple of grand ( I think it was 7k profit for the OMC for the Carfax) and I think the one in Aldershot multi venue was something like 20k. So the team at MUK would be self funding, and as they would control all the event there would be fewer events so more likely to mitigate the risk of not having enough competitors enter. Realistically you need maybe three people to organise a rally, the rest is volunteer marshals, medics, timekeepers etc. I think it is very do able but require some coordination from MUK and some 'seed money' to get it started - which they have.
I have to disagree. Whilst club circuit racing is to an extent club orientated. It's organisation is mainly done by paid officials. Whilst with rallying it is mainly a single club (or a couple of clubs working together) l have a reasonable experience of what is actually involved in both. as for paying for professional organisers, even in my limited experience, a little SV can make a couple of grand ( I think it was 7k profit for the OMC for the Carfax) and I think the one in Aldershot multi venue was something like 20k. So the team at MUK would be self funding, and as they would control all the event there would be fewer events so more likely to mitigate the risk of not having enough competitors enter. Realistically you need maybe three people to organise a rally, the rest is volunteer marshals, medics, timekeepers etc. I think it is very do able but require some coordination from MUK and some 'seed money' to get it started - which they have.
Very few rallies make much money. Be amazed if a clubie rally made 20k profit.
Dynion Araf Uchaf said:
club racing is club oriented.
.
The big difference is that club racing is generally organised by a relatively small number of national clubs (most of whom are actually limited companies) who have a core team of full time paid staff and directors, supplemented by volunteers..
I do think that this is a model which could be used in rallying, with the benefit of common processes and materials and spread risk etc but I doubt it will change in any near term.
Dynion Araf Uchaf said:
ArnageWRC said:
Have to agree with that; there are a lot of well meaning volunteers involved; however, some see it as their personal fiefdom....and it is their way or not at all. Hence why a lot of the sport is still in the 70/80s......
having been involved with a motor club in the past and being booted out ( but that's another story) for me the biggest issue with Motor club types and those that organise club rallies is not that they are ageing people but that they are the type of people ( with a few exceptions) who are not exceptional in any other walk of their lives, They do lower level jobs, such as if they work in science they are lab technicians, if the work in finance, they're book keepers, if they work in architecture they're draughtsmen. There's nothing wrong with this per se, however these type of people are not risk takers, they're not entrepreneurial and they like things to be 'the same' So when you start changing or attempting to change rallying they are up in arms about it as it is change they don't like. Not all Motor club people are like this, but a lot are. And then when they get a bit of power and become a clerk of the course, it goes to their head because they are not used to leadership in any other format.IMHO, it is time MUK absolved clubs from organising rallies, maybe they could set up a team of 6 or so who organise all rallies in the UK, and that these are limited to 30-40 per year across the various levels. With a bit of coordintation and a paid role then this might be the launch pad to change and modernise rallying by removing the plodders in their shackles!
If you behaved like that I’m not surprised you were booted out!
andy97 said:
The big difference is that club racing is generally organised by a relatively small number of national clubs (most of whom are actually limited companies) who have a core team of full time paid staff and directors, supplemented by volunteers.
I do think that this is a model which could be used in rallying, with the benefit of common processes and materials and spread risk etc but I doubt it will change in any near term.
Tricky - in my experience, the vast majority of rally organisation is location/venue-specific. Look at the MSUK Closed Road event guidelines for details.I do think that this is a model which could be used in rallying, with the benefit of common processes and materials and spread risk etc but I doubt it will change in any near term.
The common parts (technical regs, class structure, timing, results & penalties) are much more straightforward.
I don't have a solution, all the events I'm involved with are managed differently.
I have no issue with the Welsh forests being the basis of forest rallying, it is the spiritual home of forest rallying, is well established enough to have some authority and limited opposition compared to other areas, much like parts of Scotland.
Yorkshire, Wyedean etc seem tougher, Lakes and Kielder seem OK, but only at certain times. These are all established places.
The prospect of something new is very remote I think, which is the big shame. However with the new access and insurance rules it might be possible for new maybe private venues.
I have friends near Dukeries country and that is just not possible sadly now, established for many years and just never happening, great event, great history, all done.
Yorkshire, Wyedean etc seem tougher, Lakes and Kielder seem OK, but only at certain times. These are all established places.
The prospect of something new is very remote I think, which is the big shame. However with the new access and insurance rules it might be possible for new maybe private venues.
I have friends near Dukeries country and that is just not possible sadly now, established for many years and just never happening, great event, great history, all done.
Was back to my old home town over the weekend, watching rallying on some of the roads I grew up on. Good fun.
Album here: https://flic.kr/s/aHsmR6kqGn
_DSC7694 by Ben, on Flickr
_DSC8214 by Ben, on Flickr
_DSC7776 by Ben, on Flickr
_DSC8561 by Ben, on Flickr
_DSC7790 by Ben, on Flickr
_DSC8544 by Ben, on Flickr
_DSC8826 by Ben, on Flickr
_DSC7854 by Ben, on Flickr
_DSC9033 by Ben, on Flickr
_DSC7884 by Ben, on Flickr
Album here: https://flic.kr/s/aHsmR6kqGn
_DSC7694 by Ben, on Flickr_DSC8214 by Ben, on Flickr_DSC7776 by Ben, on Flickr_DSC8561 by Ben, on Flickr_DSC7790 by Ben, on Flickr_DSC8544 by Ben, on Flickr_DSC8826 by Ben, on Flickr_DSC7854 by Ben, on Flickr_DSC9033 by Ben, on Flickr_DSC7884 by Ben, on FlickrThere are a few R5s mixing in with the AP4s - not much difference in performance, R5 probably have a small advantage but not a significant one at that level.
I only know of one ex-WRC car competing in NZ and thats the ex-Possum Bourne '97 Impreza, which is in hillclimb trim with around 800bhp and often driven by Alister McRae.
I only know of one ex-WRC car competing in NZ and thats the ex-Possum Bourne '97 Impreza, which is in hillclimb trim with around 800bhp and often driven by Alister McRae.
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