What are the top 10 British motorsport companies?
Discussion
Like a lot of things, there are all sorts of connections and permutations of ownership, partnerships, buying and selling of teams etc etc. And if you look at most of the teams you will find individuals who have worked elsewhere. Wasn't Ron Dennis a mechanic at Brabham when Jack still owned the team?
F1 is a small world.
What worries me is the fact that many of the newer team owners are coming into F1 with no other motor racing background. They are "buying into" the glamour and kudos of F1. You could never say that of folks like Frank Williams, Ron Dennis and their like. No matter what they are like now, at least their background is and always has been motor racing.
F1 is a small world.
What worries me is the fact that many of the newer team owners are coming into F1 with no other motor racing background. They are "buying into" the glamour and kudos of F1. You could never say that of folks like Frank Williams, Ron Dennis and their like. No matter what they are like now, at least their background is and always has been motor racing.
Eric Mc said:
Like a lot of things, there are all sorts of connections and permutations of ownership, partnerships, buying and selling of teams etc etc. And if you look at most of the teams you will find individuals who have worked elsewhere. Wasn't Ron Dennis a mechanic at Brabham when Jack still owned the team?
F1 is a small world.
What worries me is the fact that many of the newer team owners are coming into F1 with no other motor racing background. They are "buying into" the glamour and kudos of F1. You could never say that of folks like Frank Williams, Ron Dennis and their like. No matter what they are like now, at least their background is and always has been motor racing.
Yes Ron was a mechanic at Brabham.
I agree with you - the "garagistes" at least have an pedigree and whilst I just can't bring myself to like Horner, you can't argue about his record thus far....unlike that of Colin Kolles...and I wonder how long Adrian Burgess will keep his job there
bobski said:
Alex Hawkridge went to Reynard.
Remember it well. Poor chap left after the flotation didn't happen - then had a heart attack! He survived but couldn't tell you what he's up to nowadays.
Lives in Ingatestone near Chelmsford. I seem to recall him having spent some time as a "guest of Her Majesty's" but not certain.
YHM!
steviebee said:
How would you rank them? Sporting success? Financial success? Number of cars made?...or an index based system of all factors? If the latter, and taking in all branches of the sport, I'd say that Ford UK Ltd would be at the top of the list.
What! - all they ever did was make cheapo cars like the escort an cortina!
motorsport is done by 'real' sporting companies!
steviebee said:
re Cosworth DFV - I know they are not British in the spiritual sense but British they were!
well they certainly were not American since all the engineering an building 'was not' done in america!
Cosworth is a true british company in that its location an staffing are british - whereas their financing can be by anybody rich enough - like even a columbian drug supplier would count, as its only money that british companies need - skill an craft the UK has in abundance.
This is why mclaren allowed in mercedes for 35%, an MG_R tried likewise with SAIC - for money, largely, not expertise.
so remember this fellow members, as for comparission...
...Is it Mozart who's rememebered for his music, or is it his money-givers who are remembered for his music...?, [as being his italian/french commisioners]
for i'll think you'll find Motzart's music isnt considered french just because a french countess paid him a bag of silver to create it, just like cosworth isnt american or whatever, just because a fat rich slob in texas has some dollars to invest in a market he couldn't create by himself...
>> Edited by vlc on Friday 15th July 02:00
Kevin Kalkhoven isn't your average fat American mate.
Ford and motorsport - just where do we start on this?...how about that fact that they were responsible for the funding of the DFV, for the support of numerous forms of motorsport including rallying and Formula Ford.
Ford's motorsport interest led to them setting up SVE, amongst many other initiatives to deliver affordable but interesting cars to the masses. The humble Focus is not only recognised as the finest handling car in its class, but its steering column is considered good enough to be used in the Ford GT.
Oh and they also
ed up most royally with Jaguar Racing...
Oh and I think you'll find that Mercedes actually own 40% of McLaren FWIW
Ford and motorsport - just where do we start on this?...how about that fact that they were responsible for the funding of the DFV, for the support of numerous forms of motorsport including rallying and Formula Ford.
Ford's motorsport interest led to them setting up SVE, amongst many other initiatives to deliver affordable but interesting cars to the masses. The humble Focus is not only recognised as the finest handling car in its class, but its steering column is considered good enough to be used in the Ford GT.
Oh and they also
ed up most royally with Jaguar Racing... Oh and I think you'll find that Mercedes actually own 40% of McLaren FWIW
rubystone said:so your'e saying he's someone who 'does not' buy up talented companies, but always creates his own, like the way colin chapman created Lotus from engineering talent?
Kevin Kalkhoven isn't your average fat American mate.
rubystone said:a columbian drug lord could do the same, or a corrupt russian billionaire, tho that doesnt make either a 'great motorsport company' - but only a financer with deep pockets.
Ford and motorsport - just where do we start on this?...how about that fact that they were responsible for the funding of the DFV, for the support of numerous forms of motorsport including rallying and Formula Ford.
rubystone said:but my point is that its m-sport who turn their 'focus' model into a true rally competitor - whereas all ford can do is pay them money to do what they cant.
The humble Focus is not only recognised as the finest handling car in its class, but its steering column is considered good enough to be used in the Ford GT.
+ i think even its gearbox aint ford either but is by xtrac - another great british motorsport company - which 'is' the title of this topic i do recall...
The original Cosworth company as set up by Keith Duckworth and Mike Costin back in the early 1960s was absolutely British. However, with Ford's massive involvement in the company from about 1966 Cosworth became much more of a multi-national organisation.
I think the theme of the thread has been partly misinterpreted by many contributors - including me. Motor sport is really a pan national sport with many individuals from many countries involved. Financial backers for projects and companies are also often from far flung corners of the world.
However, there is very little doubt that a lot of the technical expertise involved in motor sport can be found in the UK. That means that, no matter whether the personnel originally came from overseas or the funding came from foreign based individuals or businesses, a lot of the practical design and building work does get done here.
I think the theme of the thread has been partly misinterpreted by many contributors - including me. Motor sport is really a pan national sport with many individuals from many countries involved. Financial backers for projects and companies are also often from far flung corners of the world.
However, there is very little doubt that a lot of the technical expertise involved in motor sport can be found in the UK. That means that, no matter whether the personnel originally came from overseas or the funding came from foreign based individuals or businesses, a lot of the practical design and building work does get done here.
vlc said:
Kevin Kalkhoven isn't your average fat American mate.
so your'e saying he's someone who 'does not' buy up talented companies, but always creates his own, like the way colin chapman created Lotus from engineering talent?
OK VLC - do you want to know how Chapman built up his company????? He used volunteers, often under or not paid to build his cars - he rarely did any of the work himself. He used his father in law's pub garage to build his first cars in and used his customers to develop his cars - there's an interesting story about the disk brake "upgrade" he offered on his Lotus 6....I haven't got the time to cover it here.... ACBC also habitually cheated in club racing to achieve results. If KK hadn't have bought Cosworth and Pi, it's doubtful they'd still be in existence. There are places for both types of individual in this world - you've just characterised KK as a fat American, I've just characterised ACBC as a User...who's right and who's wrong?
rubystone said:
Ford and motorsport - just where do we start on this?...how about that fact that they were responsible for the funding of the DFV, for the support of numerous forms of motorsport including rallying and Formula Ford.
a columbian drug lord could do the same, or a corrupt russian billionaire, tho that doesnt make either a 'great motorsport company' - but only a financer with deep pockets.
rubystone said:
The humble Focus is not only recognised as the finest handling car in its class, but its steering column is considered good enough to be used in the Ford GT.
but my point is that its m-sport who turn their 'focus' model into a true rally competitor - whereas all ford can do is pay them money to do what they cant.
+ i think even its gearbox aint ford either but is by xtrac - another great british motorsport company - which 'is' the title of this topic i do recall...
FWIW the gearbox is designed and built by Ricardo.
Just what is it that you have against Ford? Out of interest, what do you think of other manufacturers in motorport? Renault, Mercedes, BMW, Toyota, Honda for example? Do they have any great heritage that makes them worthy, in your mind?
Eric Mc said:
However, there is very little doubt that a lot of the technical expertise involved in motor sport can be found in the UK.
Exactly my point, which is why i created this thread, as to wonder, which of those companies do members put in their 'top 10'...
rubystone said:
OK VLC - do you want to know how Chapman built up his company????? He used volunteers, often under or not paid to build his cars etc......who's right and who's wrong?
how he built his company or cheated in racing i care not, its the engineering principles that lotus forged its company on that count, an its this, that what drove lotus' success.
of course, if youre saying colin chapman went to america an relocated a company there like shelby racing, an from this his entire lotus company is derived from, then i take it all back.
but i read that lotus was built-up from scatch, into being an automotive engineering success - did i read that wrong then?
rubystone said:
FWIW the gearbox is designed and built by Ricardo.
an a british motorsport company, which is my point - ie not a ford gearbox!
rubystone said:
Just what is it that you have against Ford? Out of interest, what do you think of other manufacturers in motorport? Renault, Mercedes, BMW, Toyota, Honda for example? Do they have any great heritage that makes them worthy, in your mind?
I have nothing against ford, so long as they dont take the credit for engineering they did not do.
As for the others you mention, i only respect those that design an build in their native countries with engineers largely that also from that country.
so with F1 being considered the pinacle of motorsport engineering, [ive been told], for eg-
toyota-f1 isnt in japan but germany an most there arent even japanese!
renault-f1 is just an old british company with a french engine.
mercedes-f1 is really mclaren + illmoor!
bmw-f1 - williams + a german engine.
honda-f1 - engines only, tho may use BAR as they have no talent to call their own, as like with bmw needing the inept sauber.
ps- i heard that most high performance motorsport engines are based on 1 cosworth design.
- thats 'cosworth' design, not 'ford' design.
>> Edited by vlc on Saturday 16th July 15:37
Britain's pre-eminent position in motor sport design is an historical accident.
Prior to WW2, Britain was a bit of a backwater in world motorsport. The really big international players were European manufacturers like Alfa Romeo, Mercedes, Auto Union etc who were part of large comcerns with dedicated motorsport departments - sometimes funded by their respective governments.
In Britain most of the major manufacturers of the time avoided serious motorsport leaving the construction of racing cars to small "specialist" companies. Motor sport in Britain in those days was confined to racing at Brooklands and various hill climb venues so by and large, it did not feature largely in the public's mind.
After the war, the pre-war small British special builders and post war newcomers to the fold (like Chapman and Coopers) continued in the same vein as the pre-war special builders. This time, however, Britain found itself in a position where there were now lots of venues available for proper circuit racing. Although Brooklands was gone, circuits based on disused airfields sprang up all around the country. This provided the impetus for more people to get involved in racing. The old Brooklands "snobbery" was disappearing.
The catergory of racing car which kickstarted British domination was the 500cc class. Cooper and Kieft were the most successful marks and the category received a real boost when the international sports governing body elevated the 500cc cars to international Formula 3 status. Now Britain was building specialist cars for the whole of Europe.
By the mid 1950s, the British race car builders were looking at F1 as a viable category for them and by 1958 had won their first World Championship (Vanwall).
As I have already mentioned, although a large proprotion of racing car design and development takes place in the UK, the personnel involved are truly international.
And, of course, the large car manufacturers tend to be more remote in their motorsport involvement these days. Rather than having in house competition departments as such, they tend to hire outside contractors who are specialists in racing car design. That's another reason why British companies are favoured because there just happens to be quite a few specialist racing car companies in this country. So whether you are Ford, Toyota, Renault or whoever, there is a good chance that your chosen contractor will be British.
Prior to WW2, Britain was a bit of a backwater in world motorsport. The really big international players were European manufacturers like Alfa Romeo, Mercedes, Auto Union etc who were part of large comcerns with dedicated motorsport departments - sometimes funded by their respective governments.
In Britain most of the major manufacturers of the time avoided serious motorsport leaving the construction of racing cars to small "specialist" companies. Motor sport in Britain in those days was confined to racing at Brooklands and various hill climb venues so by and large, it did not feature largely in the public's mind.
After the war, the pre-war small British special builders and post war newcomers to the fold (like Chapman and Coopers) continued in the same vein as the pre-war special builders. This time, however, Britain found itself in a position where there were now lots of venues available for proper circuit racing. Although Brooklands was gone, circuits based on disused airfields sprang up all around the country. This provided the impetus for more people to get involved in racing. The old Brooklands "snobbery" was disappearing.
The catergory of racing car which kickstarted British domination was the 500cc class. Cooper and Kieft were the most successful marks and the category received a real boost when the international sports governing body elevated the 500cc cars to international Formula 3 status. Now Britain was building specialist cars for the whole of Europe.
By the mid 1950s, the British race car builders were looking at F1 as a viable category for them and by 1958 had won their first World Championship (Vanwall).
As I have already mentioned, although a large proprotion of racing car design and development takes place in the UK, the personnel involved are truly international.
And, of course, the large car manufacturers tend to be more remote in their motorsport involvement these days. Rather than having in house competition departments as such, they tend to hire outside contractors who are specialists in racing car design. That's another reason why British companies are favoured because there just happens to be quite a few specialist racing car companies in this country. So whether you are Ford, Toyota, Renault or whoever, there is a good chance that your chosen contractor will be British.
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