LeMans cars vs. F1
Discussion
An interesting piece from www.formula1.com
"...The Nordschleife also gives a useful insight into how the performance of cars has changed over the years. Although slightly different circuit lengths and corner layouts make direct comparison difficult, a study of lap times on the Nordschleife indicates just how fast modern cars have become. In 1975 Niki Lauda set a sub 7-minute lap during practice for the Grand Prix in his Ferrari. In 1983 Derek Bell set the all-time lap record with a 6:26 in his Porsche 956 sportscar during the 1000 km race - and in recent times production road cars have put in sub 7:40 laps on road-legal tyres.
Which leads to the fascinating, if strictly hypothetical question, of how fast a modern Formula One car could lap the Nordschleife? The biggest issue would likely be that of aerodynamics - with its rough surface and several places where fast cars go airborne, the car's wings would have to be very carefully trimmed to prevent it from flipping - but a sub 6-minute lap (meaning an average speed of over 140 mph/225 kph) might well be possible…"
"...The Nordschleife also gives a useful insight into how the performance of cars has changed over the years. Although slightly different circuit lengths and corner layouts make direct comparison difficult, a study of lap times on the Nordschleife indicates just how fast modern cars have become. In 1975 Niki Lauda set a sub 7-minute lap during practice for the Grand Prix in his Ferrari. In 1983 Derek Bell set the all-time lap record with a 6:26 in his Porsche 956 sportscar during the 1000 km race - and in recent times production road cars have put in sub 7:40 laps on road-legal tyres.
Which leads to the fascinating, if strictly hypothetical question, of how fast a modern Formula One car could lap the Nordschleife? The biggest issue would likely be that of aerodynamics - with its rough surface and several places where fast cars go airborne, the car's wings would have to be very carefully trimmed to prevent it from flipping - but a sub 6-minute lap (meaning an average speed of over 140 mph/225 kph) might well be possible…"
Which LM cars are you referring to? There are quite a few categories of cars allowed to race.
Back in the early 1960s, the top rank sports cars of the day really were faster than the contemporary F1 cars. Between 1961 and 1965 F1 cars were limited to only 1.5 litres normally aspirated. It was therefore quite easy for LM cars to be much quicker. Also, it was in that period that aerodynamic devices began to be used on racing cars - but not in F1. It was Le Mans and Can Am cars which led the aerodynamic revolution. F1 took aerodynamics on board relatively late in the day.
Back in the early 1960s, the top rank sports cars of the day really were faster than the contemporary F1 cars. Between 1961 and 1965 F1 cars were limited to only 1.5 litres normally aspirated. It was therefore quite easy for LM cars to be much quicker. Also, it was in that period that aerodynamic devices began to be used on racing cars - but not in F1. It was Le Mans and Can Am cars which led the aerodynamic revolution. F1 took aerodynamics on board relatively late in the day.
FourWheelDrift said:
I'm pretty sure in the late 1980s, the Group C cars were quicker than F1s. For a start, they were topping out at over 250mph (more than F1) and running tyres just as big, with similar if not more downforce.
Compare 1989 Mexico City (track both F1's and Group C cars raced on)
GpC Pole Position - Sauber C9, Mauro Baldi - 1m22.571s
F1 Pole Position - McLaren-Honda, Ayrton Senna - 1m17.876s
Group C cars weren't and never have been quicker than their contemporary Formula One rivals. In 1988, at a fast track like Monza the GpC cars were 7secs slower in qualifying.
I'm afraid I can't come up with any statistics right now, but I'm positive that towards the end of the Group C era they were doing times at some circuits that would have put them on an F1 grid. Back then they had tremendous downforce with back wings like barn doors.
However, certainly nowadays there is nothing at all that will go from A-A as quick as an F1 car. They really are awesome.
Group C was great though. Without a doubt the FIA killed it 'cos it was attracting so much attention from the manufacturers. Le Mans was really terrific when you had the likes of Porsche, Jaguar (both with engines that would be familiar to Porsche and Jag owners) Mercedes, Toyata, Nissan, Peugeot (who introduced the F1 howl we're used to know) Mazda, (the banshee wail of which was a sound never heard before or since) etc.
I don't go to Le Mans any more, and probably shan't until the grids improve. I'm afraid the changes to the circuit and the cars have really spoiled things for me, although Arnage still has to be possibly the greatest place to watch race cars - and at night, oh, wow.
If you stand at Les Hunaudieres, along the straight, I can still clearly see that the cars are some 30 - 40mph slower than they were. Back then, when you stood in the hedge a few metres from the track, the cars were so fast you couldn't focus your eyes on them as they came towards you - I mean you could tell if it was a Porsche or a Jag, but it was near to impossible to identify which ones they were. By the time your eyes had focused on them they'd gone.
I remember one time stood there, when Warwick and Herbert came past side by side, at night in torrential rain, outdragging each other down to the chicane. The speed, the spray, the sheer danger - Jeez, they might not have been the best F1 drivers of all time, but they had balls so big I don't know how they carry them without buckets.
Just as an aside, whilst referring to bravery - anyone ever stuck their head inside a Porsche 917? In front of the driver is nothing but rough finished fibreglass and spindly chassis tubes. There is nothing else in front of the driver at all. The build quality was exactly the same as the Westfields I owned a bit back, but the 917 had hundreds of horsepower of Flat 12 behind it.
Having said that, at Shelsley last year was an ex-Mansell Lotus, the 88 was it? Again, the driver virtually sat between the front wheels.
Brave just isn't the word. I could never be a racing driver.
heebeegeetee said:
I'm afraid I can't come up with any statistics right now, but I'm positive that towards the end of the Group C era they were doing times at some circuits that would have put them on an F1 grid. Back then they had tremendous downforce with back wings like barn doors.
The Peugeot 905 EVO that practiced but didn't race at the Magny-Cours WSC round in 1993 (I think) would have put itself third on the grid for that years French GP. 3.5 litre Group C cars had far, far more downforce than any F1 car, before or since. We're talking 10,500lbs (over 5 tonnes) of downforce at 200mph. An F1 car makes about 3 tonnes at the same speed. Currently, an LMP1 car is about 10-15 seconds a lap slower than an F1 car at a given circuit. The LMP1 car weighs 900kg, instead of 600kg for the F1 car, has about 600bhp, as opposed to 950-1000bhp for the F1 car, and has only about two-thirds of the downforce. Still prefer sportscar racing to anything else.
Eric Mc said:
Back in the early 1960s, the top rank sports cars of the day really were faster than the contemporary F1 cars. Between 1961 and 1965 F1 cars were limited to only 1.5 litres normally aspirated. It was therefore quite easy for LM cars to be much quicker..
1.5 litre Formula One cars were still quicker than their contemporary Sports cars of the same period on other circuits. At the Nurburgring (only circuit they both raced on in during that period the Formula One cars were between 20-30secs per lap faster both in 1961 and 1965. Le Mans of course had the Mulsanne but the Nordschlieffe had some very fast sections and long straights too. The same Sportcars raced there as they did at Le Mans.
dinkel said:
Still prefer sportscar racing to anything else.
Maybe with a little tweak both cars could run similar times . . .
Yeah they could, but can you imagine the speed differential between a prototype capable of lapping at F1 speeds and a GT1 car, never mind some of the slower GT2 cars. It wouldn't be safe
DJ111S said:
GT4 holds the answer.........
There is a guy who can do it around 4min. IIRC it is on www.nobleforums.com
I think it's 4 mins 20-odd.
I'll have to give it a shot. That isn't a standard F1 car, you can mod it up to nearly 1000bhp.
I'll have a session with a standard F1 car and a few of the GT cars and see what the difference is in standard form. I think it will be 45secs to a minute around the 'ring.
I'll have to give it a shot. That isn't a standard F1 car, you can mod it up to nearly 1000bhp.
I'll have a session with a standard F1 car and a few of the GT cars and see what the difference is in standard form. I think it will be 45secs to a minute around the 'ring.
heebeegeetee said:
The build quality was exactly the same as the Westfields I owned a bit back, but the 917 had hundreds of horsepower of Flat 12 behind it.
Many hundreds
, the 1973 model (that's 32 years ago) made 1100 bhp and did a 0-60 in 2.1 seconds, topping out at 238mph according to data here: www.fast-autos.net/porsche/porsche91730.html
It shows the Maclaren F1 a thing or two..
Globulators said:
'73 model (that's 32 years ago) made 1100 bhp and did a 0-60 in 2.1 seconds, topping out at 238mph according to data here:
www.fast-autos.net/porsche/porsche91730.html
Transmission: 4-Speed Manual
tuscan_thunder said:
ah but screw the revs down to 15,000 max and the F1 engine reliability goes way up.
...
round Le Mans, the F1 car could probably build up so much of a lead that it could pit, change tyres and brakes and still easily rejoin in the lead.
cool thx for so many answers.
but begs the question, why bother developing a new lm prototype. just buy a ferrari 2004 f1, turn the revs down and bolt on a sexy composite body
francisb said:
ah but screw the revs down to 15,000 max and the F1 engine reliability goes way up.
...
round Le Mans, the F1 car could probably build up so much of a lead that it could pit, change tyres and brakes and still easily rejoin in the lead.
cool thx for so many answers.
but begs the question, why bother developing a new lm prototype. just buy a ferrari 2004 f1, turn the revs down and bolt on a sexy composite body
Ahhh, but the most important component in Ferraris success couldn't be carried over to Le Mans - the FIA!
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