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JonRB said:Totally agree
The FIA could have [...] made the entire race a non-championship race - no teams scoring any points.
That would have been grossly unfair on the Bridgestone runners and would have been no less farcical.
Lets not forget that Barrichello had to go slow at (forget now) to make sure the tyres lasted to the end of the race
My 2p...
Once the Michelin tyre was deemed unsafe, In the meeting the question "do we want to put on a show for the fans ?" should have been asked
Answer yes: Bung in the chicane, only Bridgestone runer score points, or accept that there are going to be a few very slow cars, which IMHO doesn't make it much of a spectacle (and with racing drivers mentality is just as unsafe)
Answer no: Give the fans their money back and race with 6 cars
The FIA could have sorted this, they chose not to. I don't think you can blame Ferrari
Well I don't blame Ferrari, but I also don't agree with some of the comparisions that they came out with yesterday. Citing Michael Schumacher's punctures at Barcelona this year as a similar situation is quite ridiculous, purely because the teams test at Barcelona all day everyday throughout the winter. Any team that turns up to the Spanish GP without knowing 110% what tyres and setup they're using doesn't deserve to be in F1.
Indianapolis is not a nominated test track so the teams can't test there. With new tyre rules, new track surface and no testing it becomes a very different situlation. Bridgestone's advantage was the data the get from their involvement in the IRL and Indy 500 (Firestone tyres). The data they had from a month of Indy 500 testing probably contributed in some way to the Bridgestone tyres used this weekend. Michelin simply didn't have that data
However, the FIA should have prepared a contingency for this situation when they drew up the 2005 'one tyre only' rule. They did not therefore they are at fault.
DC
>> Edited by DavidCane on Monday 20th June 17:38
Indianapolis is not a nominated test track so the teams can't test there. With new tyre rules, new track surface and no testing it becomes a very different situlation. Bridgestone's advantage was the data the get from their involvement in the IRL and Indy 500 (Firestone tyres). The data they had from a month of Indy 500 testing probably contributed in some way to the Bridgestone tyres used this weekend. Michelin simply didn't have that data
However, the FIA should have prepared a contingency for this situation when they drew up the 2005 'one tyre only' rule. They did not therefore they are at fault.
DC
>> Edited by DavidCane on Monday 20th June 17:38
Couldn't have been a non-championship race, as that would have penalized the bridgestone teams unfairly, as well, Ferrari stated they would not race in a non-championship race. Imagine Zak's vitriol had that happened!
I still don't see why they couldn't install the chicane and only allow Bridgestone cars to score points. Yes, the setup would have been compromised (same for all teams), Michelin did give their word that their tires would be ok for that (much safer than assuming DC, KR, JP would run slow through a corner while MS blasts by at full throttle), and the fans would have seen a real race.
Yes, a non-pointer michelin guy could have wiped out MS to deprive him of his 10 points, that is something that would have to be looked at after the race and VERY seriously policed, just like if it were to happen at any other race.
It's all well and good that Ferrari gave the decision to the FIA and respected the regulations, you really can't fault them, and none of the other teams did when asked about it. However, if they had stepped up and thrown in with the other 9 to say that there should be a full grid race, the FIA would practically have to comply and we wouldn't be having this conversation. But, because they, once again, simply side with the FIA, no matter what their decision, Ferrari left themselves open to the this type of accusation. They didn't help themselves.
Perhaps they were worried about getting 10 points by finishing 6th behind 5 cars with 'faulty' michelin tires?
There is no doubt that michelin screwed up big time, unfortunately, the FIA's keenness for rules caused the 'farce' that we watched/switched off/slept through.
Gary
I still don't see why they couldn't install the chicane and only allow Bridgestone cars to score points. Yes, the setup would have been compromised (same for all teams), Michelin did give their word that their tires would be ok for that (much safer than assuming DC, KR, JP would run slow through a corner while MS blasts by at full throttle), and the fans would have seen a real race.
Yes, a non-pointer michelin guy could have wiped out MS to deprive him of his 10 points, that is something that would have to be looked at after the race and VERY seriously policed, just like if it were to happen at any other race.
It's all well and good that Ferrari gave the decision to the FIA and respected the regulations, you really can't fault them, and none of the other teams did when asked about it. However, if they had stepped up and thrown in with the other 9 to say that there should be a full grid race, the FIA would practically have to comply and we wouldn't be having this conversation. But, because they, once again, simply side with the FIA, no matter what their decision, Ferrari left themselves open to the this type of accusation. They didn't help themselves.
Perhaps they were worried about getting 10 points by finishing 6th behind 5 cars with 'faulty' michelin tires?
There is no doubt that michelin screwed up big time, unfortunately, the FIA's keenness for rules caused the 'farce' that we watched/switched off/slept through.
Gary
I missed the 'race' on telly but it didn't seem much different to the usual F1 procession, the order determined by qualifying, who gets the best start and the pit-lane crew and tactics. Yes, Bernie and Max thought their sheer authority was more important than racing driver's lives and were proved wrong, but the whole formula is very very dull anyhow.
Racing on the other hand _can_ be fun, and is to be found regularly for the MotoGP. You get three races in the 125cc, 250cc and monster 500cc, lunatic riders and a real, true, start to finish race. These guys overtake too, sometimes 15 or so places in a single race.
Add Valentino Rossi's natural charisma and surgical precision and you get neck and neck racing. True racing.
I used to watch F1 until I discovered MotoGP and realised what I was missing..
www.motograndprix.com/
Watch, boggle, amaze and enjoy
Racing on the other hand _can_ be fun, and is to be found regularly for the MotoGP. You get three races in the 125cc, 250cc and monster 500cc, lunatic riders and a real, true, start to finish race. These guys overtake too, sometimes 15 or so places in a single race.
Add Valentino Rossi's natural charisma and surgical precision and you get neck and neck racing. True racing.
I used to watch F1 until I discovered MotoGP and realised what I was missing..
www.motograndprix.com/
Watch, boggle, amaze and enjoy
Globulators said:
I missed the 'race' on telly but it didn't seem much different to the usual F1 procession, the order determined by qualifying, who gets the best start and the pit-lane crew and tactics. Yes, Bernie and Max thought their sheer authority was more important than racing driver's lives and were proved wrong, but the whole formula is very very dull anyhow.
Racing on the other hand _can_ be fun, and is to be found regularly for the MotoGP. You get three races in the 125cc, 250cc and monster 500cc, lunatic riders and a real, true, start to finish race. These guys overtake too, sometimes 15 or so places in a single race.
Add Valentino Rossi's natural charisma and surgical precision and you get neck and neck racing. True racing.
I used to watch F1 until I discovered MotoGP and realised what I was missing..
www.motograndprix.com/
Watch, boggle, amaze and enjoy
Or you could watch both. This may come as a shock, but the same person can actually like lots of forms of motorsport. I'm not an F1 fan, I'm a motorsport fan. There's very little I won't watch race, be it cars, bikes, sidecars, whatever. I do tend to draw the line at 2CV racing though
Quote from Reuters (Alan Baldwin):
Team principal Frank Williams believes World Champions Ferrari were completely innocent of any wrongdoings during the United States Grand Prix fiasco.
The FIA rejected a request from the Michelin teams for a temporary chicane to be installed before the final banked turn to reduce speeds. Ferrari said they were opposing the move but that the decision was for the FIA to make.
Ferrari won Sunday's 'race' with World Champion Michael Schumacher leading home Brazilian teammate Rubens Barrichello in what was effectively a two-car contest.
Williams said the Italian team, who use Bridgestone tyres, were blameless for everything that happened at Indianapolis.
"They were totally innocent in this affair entirely," Williams told Reuters. "They had no reason not to race."
Can't say fairer than that.
Team principal Frank Williams believes World Champions Ferrari were completely innocent of any wrongdoings during the United States Grand Prix fiasco.
The FIA rejected a request from the Michelin teams for a temporary chicane to be installed before the final banked turn to reduce speeds. Ferrari said they were opposing the move but that the decision was for the FIA to make.
Ferrari won Sunday's 'race' with World Champion Michael Schumacher leading home Brazilian teammate Rubens Barrichello in what was effectively a two-car contest.
Williams said the Italian team, who use Bridgestone tyres, were blameless for everything that happened at Indianapolis.
"They were totally innocent in this affair entirely," Williams told Reuters. "They had no reason not to race."
Can't say fairer than that.
So much for Bernie's guarantee after qualifying then. He was 100% certain that ALL the cars would be running!!
It's a pity all the fans can't get together and organise a boycott for next years race. It's the fans that run F1, not Bernie or Mosley or the FIA. not even the teams or the drivers. It's the fans. Without them F1 would not exist.
Unfortunatly the logistics of organising a worldwide boycott are impossible.
It's a pity all the fans can't get together and organise a boycott for next years race. It's the fans that run F1, not Bernie or Mosley or the FIA. not even the teams or the drivers. It's the fans. Without them F1 would not exist.
Unfortunatly the logistics of organising a worldwide boycott are impossible.
jpf said:
You are saying that Michelin was not aware of how the new conditions impacted tire wear at the Indy 500?
During the Indy 500 the announcers were commenting the new surface!
Michelin should have been prepared. There was no material failure to disclose on the part of the IMS.
The Indy circuit is one of the ones that the F1 "Circus" can't test at, Michelin were no doubt basing all there calculations on ther previous years races there. even if theyu did know about the resurfacing of turn 13 using dimond grip, the best they coud do was GUES at how this would affect the tyres. Bridgestone on the other hand mostlikley had very good feedback from firestone on how this new surface had bedded in, and how it may well detrimentaly effect the FI tyres. so efectivly bridgestone had had a test at the cuircuit under semi race conditions the weekend before the FI GP there.
no one is in doubt that Michelin had had an issue, but would you like to GUESS at anything when its doign 200MPH and the society is legatious?
and my comment about F1 being the pinical of motor sport etc, was a little toung in cheek.. at the moment with all the rule fiddlign etc its a joke, and no one knows what it is...
You will never stop inivation. and if you try teams will work in the grey areas of the rules or even blatently abuse them. remember the ferrari bardge board issues a few years ago.. the size was put down to a manufacturing error. Like Hell.. they got caught bending the rules.. no team of there ability makes an error of size that you can measure with a ruler, when the enginearing tollerances etc on the rest of the car are so fine....
just my 2p as usual.. I think I will spend the next GP watching paint dry..
I don't know if I'll go next year or not...
Will Formula One/Michelin admit they made a mistake?
Will they refund the tickets for my kids and me?
Will they give us the red carpet treatment to encourage our return?
What actions can they take to make me want to return?
Will Formula One/Michelin bear the financial cost of promoting next years USGP--since they screwed it up?
Will Formula One/Michelin lower the sanctioning fee to IMS so that the ticket price will be dropped sufficiently to fill IMS?
Before IMS can give us our money back, Michelin and Formula One Management need to cough up the dough and make IMS whole--so IMS can make its fans whole.
While it is true IMS did not promote the race enough (and 100,000+ people showed up WITHOUT promotion), Formula One/Michelin have set back the USGP years. Formula One/Michelin need to fix this mess.
Before anyone thinks Turkey will gladly fill the USGP's slot, you have to ask yourself if it happens here, why wouldn't it happen there? The USGP incident as severely tarnished Formula One's reputation. It is up to Formula One to salvage its reputation.
Will Formula One/Michelin admit they made a mistake?
Will they refund the tickets for my kids and me?
Will they give us the red carpet treatment to encourage our return?
What actions can they take to make me want to return?
Will Formula One/Michelin bear the financial cost of promoting next years USGP--since they screwed it up?
Will Formula One/Michelin lower the sanctioning fee to IMS so that the ticket price will be dropped sufficiently to fill IMS?
Before IMS can give us our money back, Michelin and Formula One Management need to cough up the dough and make IMS whole--so IMS can make its fans whole.
While it is true IMS did not promote the race enough (and 100,000+ people showed up WITHOUT promotion), Formula One/Michelin have set back the USGP years. Formula One/Michelin need to fix this mess.
Before anyone thinks Turkey will gladly fill the USGP's slot, you have to ask yourself if it happens here, why wouldn't it happen there? The USGP incident as severely tarnished Formula One's reputation. It is up to Formula One to salvage its reputation.
srebbe64 said:Best I can find is: Formula One Administration Ltd, 6 Princes Gate, London, SW7 1QJ
Anyone got an address or email address of Bernie Ecclestone? I think, like thousands of others no doubt, that I'll write him a little letter with some constructive suggestions as to how to improve F1.
Thanks for the address, I've sent him the following letter:
Formula One Administration Ltd,
6 Princes Gate,
London,
SW7 1QJ
Dear Mr. Ecclestone,
Over the years my family and I have loved and supported F1 Racing, having been to many Grand Prix in both the UK and overseas. However, in recent years it seems that the ‘tail is wagging the dog’. Money is now the swansong of F1, I fear. The fans are being asked to pay exorbitant ticket and amenity prices and are treated like animals at circuits. Those who watch on TV are having the race constantly interrupted by adverts – as F1 is sold to the highest bidding broadcaster, who obviously needs to sell advertising to pay for the bid.
Now I wouldn’t mind putting up with the above if it there was “drama” and “entertainment” in exchange – but there isn’t. My understanding, Mr Ecclestone, is that you are a successful business man, and as such I would have thought that you, more than most, would understand the basic principles of successfully running a company:
Keep it nice and simple. The F1 rule book is a joke, it’s so complex that it needs ‘significant interpretation’ – which can’t be right in any sport.
Have clear lines of accountability and responsibility. At the moment all the teams have to agree for something to change. This would be like expecting the EU to agree on universal tax laws or foreign policy. It will never work because each team is looking out for itself. On Sunday no one within F1 took any responsibility for putting on a show, or even knew what was going on. This is laughable. My knee-jerk reaction “you could never run a business like that” – then it dawned on me: you were.
Keep your clients satisfied. Whether you’re running General Motors or a Chinese Takeaway, your customers are your most important asset. Without them you cease to exist. I can’t imagine that there were many fans, viewers or sponsors that were pleased with what they witnessed in the USA. Goodness knows what the Americans will make of the F1 circus after the farce we all witnessed at the weekend. Quite frankly, it’s now embarrassing to admit to being an F1 fan.
Far be it from me to preach to a successful businessman like yourself, but it’s obvious to all and sundry that unless you make some rapid and effective changes to the entire infrastructure of F1 then you will simply lose the bedrock of your customers. Needless-to-say, the likely result will be less sponsors and advertisers, resulting in the folding of F1 teams and the eventual demise of the sport.
We fans have every right to be angry with the situation, having spent large sums of money supporting your business. I’ve no doubt that if one of your suppliers let you down that there would be Hell to pay. Accordingly, you as a supplier have let down your customers and I’m calling you to task, although I don’t expect a reply to this letter.
Regards
Formula One Administration Ltd,
6 Princes Gate,
London,
SW7 1QJ
Dear Mr. Ecclestone,
Over the years my family and I have loved and supported F1 Racing, having been to many Grand Prix in both the UK and overseas. However, in recent years it seems that the ‘tail is wagging the dog’. Money is now the swansong of F1, I fear. The fans are being asked to pay exorbitant ticket and amenity prices and are treated like animals at circuits. Those who watch on TV are having the race constantly interrupted by adverts – as F1 is sold to the highest bidding broadcaster, who obviously needs to sell advertising to pay for the bid.
Now I wouldn’t mind putting up with the above if it there was “drama” and “entertainment” in exchange – but there isn’t. My understanding, Mr Ecclestone, is that you are a successful business man, and as such I would have thought that you, more than most, would understand the basic principles of successfully running a company:
Keep it nice and simple. The F1 rule book is a joke, it’s so complex that it needs ‘significant interpretation’ – which can’t be right in any sport.
Have clear lines of accountability and responsibility. At the moment all the teams have to agree for something to change. This would be like expecting the EU to agree on universal tax laws or foreign policy. It will never work because each team is looking out for itself. On Sunday no one within F1 took any responsibility for putting on a show, or even knew what was going on. This is laughable. My knee-jerk reaction “you could never run a business like that” – then it dawned on me: you were.
Keep your clients satisfied. Whether you’re running General Motors or a Chinese Takeaway, your customers are your most important asset. Without them you cease to exist. I can’t imagine that there were many fans, viewers or sponsors that were pleased with what they witnessed in the USA. Goodness knows what the Americans will make of the F1 circus after the farce we all witnessed at the weekend. Quite frankly, it’s now embarrassing to admit to being an F1 fan.
Far be it from me to preach to a successful businessman like yourself, but it’s obvious to all and sundry that unless you make some rapid and effective changes to the entire infrastructure of F1 then you will simply lose the bedrock of your customers. Needless-to-say, the likely result will be less sponsors and advertisers, resulting in the folding of F1 teams and the eventual demise of the sport.
We fans have every right to be angry with the situation, having spent large sums of money supporting your business. I’ve no doubt that if one of your suppliers let you down that there would be Hell to pay. Accordingly, you as a supplier have let down your customers and I’m calling you to task, although I don’t expect a reply to this letter.
Regards
Can't match the post above, but can anyone tell me where this idea that Bridgestone is a conservative company came from, in that they have been making tires that last longer all season and therefore go slower.
I can only remember Ferarri's retiring from any GP through tyre wear this year (RB parked, MS crashed). As very few people remember what Jordan and Minardi do however, and even Bridgestone appear to give them what is left at the back of the Garage after supplying the red cars, then this represents 100% retirement of the guys with the good tires.
The french tyres were not up to the job, and caused a disproportionate retirement of the cars (a faulty suspension mount design only retires grey cars, bad brake ducts blue ones). This has been made very public because the supplier supplies all of the teams.
However, the idea of bringing the sport into disrepute is laughable - many cars have been retired on safety grounds before a failure (remember Monaco last year - Ron saying that BAR were irresponsible as Kimi had retired before his engine blew?
At the end of the day, a mistake was made that forced 14 cars into retirement (which lets face it, is all but two at the moment). Hands are up for that. If the powers that be had wanted to salvage something from this to reward their customers, they could do.
The FIA / FOM etc however didn't want to salvage anything. In which case, why are they upset - OK, 14 cars retired with a technical fault, but this is F1, technical faults happen.
Therefore, the question has to be why didn't FIA/FOM want to do anything?
I can only remember Ferarri's retiring from any GP through tyre wear this year (RB parked, MS crashed). As very few people remember what Jordan and Minardi do however, and even Bridgestone appear to give them what is left at the back of the Garage after supplying the red cars, then this represents 100% retirement of the guys with the good tires.
The french tyres were not up to the job, and caused a disproportionate retirement of the cars (a faulty suspension mount design only retires grey cars, bad brake ducts blue ones). This has been made very public because the supplier supplies all of the teams.
However, the idea of bringing the sport into disrepute is laughable - many cars have been retired on safety grounds before a failure (remember Monaco last year - Ron saying that BAR were irresponsible as Kimi had retired before his engine blew?
At the end of the day, a mistake was made that forced 14 cars into retirement (which lets face it, is all but two at the moment). Hands are up for that. If the powers that be had wanted to salvage something from this to reward their customers, they could do.
The FIA / FOM etc however didn't want to salvage anything. In which case, why are they upset - OK, 14 cars retired with a technical fault, but this is F1, technical faults happen.
Therefore, the question has to be why didn't FIA/FOM want to do anything?
jpf said:
I don't know if I'll go next year or not...
Will Formula One/Michelin admit they made a mistake?
Will they refund the tickets for my kids and me?
Will they give us the red carpet treatment to encourage our return?
What actions can they take to make me want to return?
Will Formula One/Michelin bear the financial cost of promoting next years USGP--since they screwed it up?
Will Formula One/Michelin lower the sanctioning fee to IMS so that the ticket price will be dropped sufficiently to fill IMS?
Before IMS can give us our money back, Michelin and Formula One Management need to cough up the dough and make IMS whole--so IMS can make its fans whole.
While it is true IMS did not promote the race enough (and 100,000+ people showed up WITHOUT promotion), Formula One/Michelin have set back the USGP years. Formula One/Michelin need to fix this mess.
Before anyone thinks Turkey will gladly fill the USGP's slot, you have to ask yourself if it happens here, why wouldn't it happen there? The USGP incident as severely tarnished Formula One's reputation. It is up to Formula One to salvage its reputation.
A friend of mine was also at Indy, and left five minutes after the 'race' started. Naturally it was the topic of conversation at lunch. Our conclusion:-
Michelin did the right thing. They realised the tyres were no good and got replacements in. Bernie wanted a race, but the FIA made the ultimate decision.
The point you raise about the problem remaining the same if the race goes to Turkey or Timbuktoo for that matter is I believe true. If the FIA had allowed the chicane then there would at least have been a race. Now the race was effectiovely not run, what is to say that it won't be run at any other circuit this year? Nothing. If you are a team sponsorship manager going in search of funds nobody in their right mind is going to fund a team because there is no chance of promotional exposure. In effect it will kill the lesser teams, because a race generates fans (TV and at a track), which generates sponsors, which keeps the teams running.
As much as F1 is the pinnacle of the sport in technical terms, it lost fans because it was a procession with a predictable outcome. The new rules are no good, the FIA need to get a good dose of professionalism and realism in order to survive. If you watch Champ cars, it may have F1 wannabes and hasbeens but at least it is a RACE worth watching. With Champ cars they at least know that a show has to happen for the fans and the sponsors. If Champ cars did go global, it would be a better sponsorship bet than F1.
So our basic conclusion is that the FIA need to use what little grey matter they posess to work out a way of rescuing the fiasco. It isn't going to be much of a series if the weak teams go bust and half the remainder have a shoestring budget all because they are incapable of guaranteeing that on race day that there will actually be a race.
jpf said:
Before anyone thinks Turkey will gladly fill the USGP's slot, you have to ask yourself if it happens here, why wouldn't it happen there?
This may happen short term, but to leave the US market 'un-tapped' for any length of time would be extremely unwise in my opinion. The missed opportunity of cashing-in on the US market would be akin to financial suicide in my eyes.
Bernie's supposedly the ultimate dealmaker, I for one can't wait to see how he tries to work this one out...
Bear in mind one thing - Michelin also refused to warrant the REPLACEMENT tyres too. Had these been safe, I am syre the teams would have risked sanction to race.
I see that the FIA is going to charge the Michelin TEAMS with bringing the sport into dsrepute. That ought to hasten the formation of GPWC and perhpas the departure of Michelin from F1 (it could be the control tyre for GPWC couldn't it?)
I see that the FIA is going to charge the Michelin TEAMS with bringing the sport into dsrepute. That ought to hasten the formation of GPWC and perhpas the departure of Michelin from F1 (it could be the control tyre for GPWC couldn't it?)
rubystone said:
I see that the FIA is going to charge the Michelin TEAMS with bringing the sport into dsrepute. That ought to hasten the formation of GPWC and perhpas the departure of Michelin from F1 (it could be the control tyre for GPWC couldn't it?)
Yep.It will only hasten the END.
MoJo.
i know it made for a dull race but i have to say that i think they made the right decision.
michelin have been the dominant tyre this season and bridgestone have struggled. however now we are at a circuit at which michelin cant compete and they wanted the race to be canceled. i understand that the tyre were blowing up but it simply means the guys on michelins can are limited by the tyres and cant drive as fast. If they detuned there engines as they can and then raced they wouldnt have gone as fast but they would have finished they would have put on the show that apparently they all wanted and someof them would have got points.
This is a sport and just because one set of equpment isnt good enough for a track is an unacceptable reason to cancel the GP. Bridgestone have had tyre explode. it happened to the feraris but they dont try to cancel a race. If the race was canceled it would have been totaly unfair on the bridgestone runners.
A difficult decision since any decision would be controversial but i think correct.
michelin have been the dominant tyre this season and bridgestone have struggled. however now we are at a circuit at which michelin cant compete and they wanted the race to be canceled. i understand that the tyre were blowing up but it simply means the guys on michelins can are limited by the tyres and cant drive as fast. If they detuned there engines as they can and then raced they wouldnt have gone as fast but they would have finished they would have put on the show that apparently they all wanted and someof them would have got points.
This is a sport and just because one set of equpment isnt good enough for a track is an unacceptable reason to cancel the GP. Bridgestone have had tyre explode. it happened to the feraris but they dont try to cancel a race. If the race was canceled it would have been totaly unfair on the bridgestone runners.
A difficult decision since any decision would be controversial but i think correct.
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