RE: Indianapolis F1: eye-witness report
Discussion
apn said:That's a fair point, apn, and you may be right.
If the situation were reversed and it was Ferrari and Bridgestone that had the problem would the other teams and Michelin have agreed?
I don't think so!
Your hypothetical example is not, however, a mirror image of what happened. The Michelin teams offered to run without being eligible for points, so long as the circuit could be made safe for them to do so. They said, in effect, "Ferrari, you can have the bloody eighteen points; just let us get out there and run a proper race."
Why should Ferrari and the FIA have been opposed to that?
But aren't IRL and F1 tyres constructed completely differently. IRL tyres are very low profile while F1 tyres have much larger sidewalls, so surely they will perform considerably differently under load?
At the end of the day, the whole thing was a no win situation for all concerned. The teams couldn't send the drivers out knowing that the tyres would fail. Ferrari weren't going to agree to anything which lost their advantage. The FIA weren't going to change the rules (just think of the precedent it would set, and adding a chicane that late would have been dangerous itself).
Michelin cocked up, probably due to lack of testing. I think you would all have to admit that they did their best to try and resolve the situation, but with so little time to sort the problem their hands were tied. Maybe in future the tyre manufacturers should be told if the track surface has changed prior to the event!
(Here's an idea though, why didn't they give all the cars Bridgestones?)
At the end of the day, the whole thing was a no win situation for all concerned. The teams couldn't send the drivers out knowing that the tyres would fail. Ferrari weren't going to agree to anything which lost their advantage. The FIA weren't going to change the rules (just think of the precedent it would set, and adding a chicane that late would have been dangerous itself).
Michelin cocked up, probably due to lack of testing. I think you would all have to admit that they did their best to try and resolve the situation, but with so little time to sort the problem their hands were tied. Maybe in future the tyre manufacturers should be told if the track surface has changed prior to the event!
(Here's an idea though, why didn't they give all the cars Bridgestones?)
I think if it had been the other way round and say 17 Michelin runners had been on the grid and 6 bridgestone shod cars weren't there wouldn't have been such a problem. It's just a fact that there are very strict rules in F1 and a lot of them where put in recently to take away the advatages that Schumacher had over other teams and drivers and to make it a more exciting season of racing to watch. Schumacher has had some 87 Grand Prix victories in his career in F1, that's amazing in itself. Whether it comes across that way is another story on that race day.
It's a shame but that's racing...
It's a shame but that's racing...
tinman0 said:At Indy Ferrari pretended that they were too dignified, too far removed from the battle, to involved themselves in negotiations with the FIA and Bernie to try to resolve the crisis. These are the same guys who four months ago cut a secret backroom deal with the FIA and Bernie to write their own Concorde Agreement.
Why should Ferrari and the FIA have been opposed to that?
Because it makes Ferrari look stupid and arrogant. Not that two Ferraris going around a track on their own looked stupid or arrogant at all.
Priceless.
flemke said:
flemke said:
Why should Ferrari and the FIA have been opposed to that?
Because it makes Ferrari look stupid and arrogant. Not that two Ferraris going around a track on their own looked stupid or arrogant at all.
At Indy Ferrari pretended that they were too dignified, too far removed from the battle, to involved themselves in negotiations with the FIA and Bernie to try to resolve the crisis. These are the same guys who four months ago cut a secret backroom deal with the FIA and Bernie to write their own Concorde Agreement.
Priceless.
You -almost!- can't blame them for being good at 'Formula one' (: backroom dealing, marketing machining, rules bending, downright cheating, fan manipulating,...) -if they don't do it, one of the other teams surely will!
I totally agree with the michelin runners not racing, ultimately one of them could die out there and its not worth the risk.
However, i do think they should have given the bridgestone runners the points and put a chicane in to allow the 120,000 people who showed up at least some joy from a miserable afternoon.
However, i do think they should have given the bridgestone runners the points and put a chicane in to allow the 120,000 people who showed up at least some joy from a miserable afternoon.
Isn't F1 the greatest spectacle???? My god it's awful and why do the people who run F1 have the ignorance to call it "sport" anymore. The whole season is determined by team politics, result appeals, court cases, technicalities interesting only to those with an interest in anything other than the spectacular.
Surely if someone is getting paid over half a million a race then then is a risk with that, they could have run slow through turn 13 and see who had the most b*lls to go faster. Ecclestone should be made to test the Michelin tyres next time.
Surely if someone is getting paid over half a million a race then then is a risk with that, they could have run slow through turn 13 and see who had the most b*lls to go faster. Ecclestone should be made to test the Michelin tyres next time.
Shackyb said:
I totally agree with the michelin runners not racing, ultimately one of them could die out there and its not worth the risk.
dont be so dramatic. watch the largely unpaid runners in the IOM TT to see what real racers think is and isn't an acceptable risk. how many pre 80's teams/drivers would have pulled out? those guys used to race the nurburgring in leather caps and flying goggles for gods sake...
>> Edited by francisb on Tuesday 21st June 17:51
Shackyb said:
allow the 120,000 people who showed up at least some joy from a miserable afternoon.
And that's just it: the Dukes and Earls of the sport now seem to have their heads so far up their a
s that they've forgotten who pays their way in the end. The whole thing just looks like a big two finger salute to us fans - the buyers of tickets, sponsors' products, and automobiles It's amazing to me that the FIA couldn’t come up with some sort of solution to get all the teams on the track so a race of some kind could go on. Can anyone really blame Ferarri for continuing (as disgusting as it was to watch)? Aren’t Minardi and Jordan then equally shameless? This wasn’t a situation of their own making, after all. At least MS/RB had the discipline not to look at all pleased on the podium...
Anyway, I saw some pretty exciting Porsche Cup racing on British Eurosport instead, on the same track. F1 cars are truly amazing things to watch, but my disgust is overwhelming my fascination with it all.
As I understand it the tyres are chosen by Michelin and the relevant teams. Michelin offered to fly new tyres in from France on Friday night, but apart from the set up problems with the cars and new tyres the FIA said that it would cause 5 penalty situations. I think Michelin made the right call in not allowing potentially dangerous tyres to be used, however I think the FIA were just being pig headed in not seeking a compromise and therefore allowing the race to go ahead with all teams, did Bernie seem particularly worried or concerned about the fans when he was wandering around the start line, I think not. The FIA have grown too big for their boots, they think of the money and not the sport, a point in case at the moment is their totally ridiculous decision to not allow Top Methanol Dragster to run as an FIA class from next year,and why? because they want pro mod (which is fantastic) and say they can't afford another class!!!!!!
Why do people keep blaming Ferrari? They turned with suitable tyres and raced. They did not veto any suggestion put forward by the teams or Michelin, The FIA did this.
From what I have heard Bernie did everything in his power to force the teams to race but was ignored, and yet he seems to be public enemy number 2.
The real culprits here were Michelin, they supplied tyres that were not fit for purpose. If they didn't know about the changes to the circuit then they damn well should have. And having cocked up on a monumental scale they are trying (successfully) to transfer the blame to anybody but themselves.
>> Edited by david_s on Tuesday 21st June 19:15
>> Edited by david_s on Tuesday 21st June 19:16
From what I have heard Bernie did everything in his power to force the teams to race but was ignored, and yet he seems to be public enemy number 2.
The real culprits here were Michelin, they supplied tyres that were not fit for purpose. If they didn't know about the changes to the circuit then they damn well should have. And having cocked up on a monumental scale they are trying (successfully) to transfer the blame to anybody but themselves.
>> Edited by david_s on Tuesday 21st June 19:15
>> Edited by david_s on Tuesday 21st June 19:16
simonrockman said:
Ferrari need to realise why they race.
It's to sell cars. OK, so it's no longer a case of race on Sunday, sell on Monday, but It won't have done Ferrari sales in the US any favors (sic).
More significantly if FIAT had any plans for re-introducing the brand known as 'Fix It Again Tony', they can now forget it.
It wasn't Ferrari's fault, but not being big enough to help the sport be a sport will tarnish them.
Not it won't!
Understand your sentiment but they'll not sell a single less car as a result of Sunday. Nor will BMW, Mercedes, Renault......
The stark reality is that in a month, we'll all be talking about something else. Come October, we'll be reminiscing on a great season. In a year or two - it'll be an ammusing "what happened next" on A Quesion of Sport.
Simple as that.
The way old (out of touch) Max and his F-I-A behaved was unbelievable, 120 thousand yanks and co plus millions of tuned in telly’s still did not shift did not prompt him toward correct choice, while now the papers (SUN) rumours it to be a issue between him and that other little arrogant tt who Martin Brundle so magnificently tried to squeeze an answer are having a tiff (power struggle) remember it is Max whop once said “do we need overtaking in F1” he was most likely saying do we need cars on the fukin track either.
They need reminding that F1 is a spectator sport and irrespective who wins x amount of races its “bums on grandstand seats that really drive the sport forward and if old Max does not see that then perhaps it his to drive into the pits and stay there
Signed F1 fan since the age of awareness – that’s a long time…
t who Martin Brundle so magnificently tried to squeeze an answer are having a tiff (power struggle) remember it is Max whop once said “do we need overtaking in F1” he was most likely saying do we need cars on the fukin track either. They need reminding that F1 is a spectator sport and irrespective who wins x amount of races its “bums on grandstand seats that really drive the sport forward and if old Max does not see that then perhaps it his to drive into the pits and stay there
Signed F1 fan since the age of awareness – that’s a long time…
david_s said:If Ferrari had sided with the other nine teams, do you think that the FIA would have persisted in their (Max's) childish and hypocritical refusal to install a chicane and thus required the race to be cancelled?
Why do people keep blaming Ferrari? They turned with suitable tyres and raced. They did not veto any suggestion put forward by the teams or Michelin, The FIA did this.
simonrockman said:
Ferrari need to realise why they race.
It's to sell cars. OK, so it's no longer a case of race on Sunday, sell on Monday, but It won't have done Ferrari sales in the US any favors (sic).
More significantly if FIAT had any plans for re-introducing the brand known as 'Fix It Again Tony', they can now forget it.
It wasn't Ferrari's fault, but not being big enough to help the sport be a sport will tarnish them.
18 easy points plus the constructors points is why they disagreed, they know thay had little chance of winning.
steviebee said:If another driver ends up being denied the Driver's Championship, or another team the Constructor's Championship, because of the points that were gifted to the guys in the red underwear, I would be less confident that the matter will slip into sports trivia that quickly.
The stark reality is that in a month, we'll all be talking about something else. Come October, we'll be reminiscing on a great season. In a year or two - it'll be an ammusing "what happened next" on A Quesion of Sport.
Simple as that.
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