Button to Ferrari?
Discussion
I am not at all convinced that Button actually has a say in whether he goes or not to Williams, unless his manager finds a team willing to buy him out of his Williams contract...and Williams are happy to let him go...which they may be as they are unlikely to hang on to Allianz next year and thus may not want to pay him a massive salary during a period when they are unlikely to be even as competitive as they are this year!
Ron Dennis is known for his watertight contracts and after Senna held him to ransom from 1991 to 1993 will have tied Raikkonen up with a reasonable salary; Mercedes stumped up a fleet of new vehicles for Sauber when the Raikkonen deal was done and would be mightily pissed off if he slipped through their fingers just when they were looking to get a return on their investment?
Finally, I think that if (as seems likely) Flav's 5 year plan comes to fruition in 2006, Carlos Ghosn may have an easy time of closing the F1 operation down, albeit a couple of years down the line once the new Concorde Agreement is finally signed, in order to stand a chance of finding a buyer (although what's to stop them pulling out this year using the excuse of uncertainty?)
>> Edited by rubystone on Tuesday 12th July 10:28
Oh and on the Rossi stuff. I am very much convinced that he will come into F1 with the RBR team for 2007 (although I haven't yet heard whether he's confirmed his Yamaha contract for next year yet, so could it be 2006?).
As someone once said, Red Bull are a marketing company, Mateschitz is a master at PR. Imagine the situation, Luca Di Montezemolo ...over a double espresso in Minardi hospitality....
"Dietrich, howsabouta we giva you some engines for your car, you can even keep them badged as Ferraris...in return for this we want you to run Rossi - we'll pay his salary, you get free engines and he gets a chance to learn the ropes. You then give him back to us after a year and we stick him in the number 2 car alonside Fernando"...
Mateschitz strokes his DC stubble for a nanosecond "OK...but you agree to take Scott Speed as a test driver...think about what Phil Hill did for you and Speed's no Michael Andretti either..."
Deal done
Stranger things have happened....
As someone once said, Red Bull are a marketing company, Mateschitz is a master at PR. Imagine the situation, Luca Di Montezemolo ...over a double espresso in Minardi hospitality....
"Dietrich, howsabouta we giva you some engines for your car, you can even keep them badged as Ferraris...in return for this we want you to run Rossi - we'll pay his salary, you get free engines and he gets a chance to learn the ropes. You then give him back to us after a year and we stick him in the number 2 car alonside Fernando"...
Mateschitz strokes his DC stubble for a nanosecond "OK...but you agree to take Scott Speed as a test driver...think about what Phil Hill did for you and Speed's no Michael Andretti either..."
Deal done
Stranger things have happened....
I haven't much opinion on Button, although he may be another Barrichello - a beautifully fluid driver and properly quick, but lacking the selfishness and killer instinct of a champion. Then again, trying to screw BAR last year was truly selfish, but one had the sense that that was orchestrated by his managers, and Button was simple the monkey dancing to the organ grinder.
Raikkonen's contract, I believe, has an option year (optional for McLaren), and that option is for next year. Meaning that he would be available to anyone for the year following.
In F1 the only indentured servitude seems to be by the drivers not to the teams, but to their managers.
It's possible that Renault would drop out of F1 following a championship year, although that would be contrary to standard corporate thinking, which normally is to buy in at the top and get out at the bottom. Ghosn does seem to be more thoughtful than the rest of the car company bosses, but my guess is that Renault's commitment to F1 will have more to do with its overall business health than with whether it finishes first or third.
Furthermore, if the GPWC were to continue to build momentum, and Renault during that process were to remain at its core, it would be unlikely that it would quit F1 just a year before the new series was to commence.
>> Edited by flemke on Tuesday 12th July 10:57
Raikkonen's contract, I believe, has an option year (optional for McLaren), and that option is for next year. Meaning that he would be available to anyone for the year following.
In F1 the only indentured servitude seems to be by the drivers not to the teams, but to their managers.
It's possible that Renault would drop out of F1 following a championship year, although that would be contrary to standard corporate thinking, which normally is to buy in at the top and get out at the bottom. Ghosn does seem to be more thoughtful than the rest of the car company bosses, but my guess is that Renault's commitment to F1 will have more to do with its overall business health than with whether it finishes first or third.
Furthermore, if the GPWC were to continue to build momentum, and Renault during that process were to remain at its core, it would be unlikely that it would quit F1 just a year before the new series was to commence.
>> Edited by flemke on Tuesday 12th July 10:57
mrmaggit said:
He is already the best ever on two wheels, he just needs to teach these four-wheeled geriatrics who's best. I just hope he does it before the smug Kraut runs for the hills. And in the same car.
Whilst I totally endorse anyone who could / can give MS something to worry about, I have to say that Rossi is defintely NOT the "best ever on two wheels".
You seem to have forgotten the likes of FIVE times top class champ Mick Doohan - Rossi only has four top class titles. And Micks were after his horrific Assen smash in '93, when he almost lost his leg. And lets give due credit to Agostini, whose record of EIGHT top class titles is unlikely to be beaten. Or for that matter is Freddie Spencers achievement of 250 and 500 titles in a single year, 1985. And sticking with home grown talent, the late Barry Sheene's two top class titles came after his 175mph Daytona smash. And he continued racing after the well publicised '82 Silverstone practice crash. These are / were hard men, not egotistical schoolboys. Rossi has some way to go before he can be spoken of with such high regard.
7.
jacobyte said:
Not forgetting John surtees, who won 7 world motorcycle championships and an F1 championship all by the time he was 30.
>> Edited by jacobyte on Tuesday 12th July 14:18
Absolutely. Difficult to imagine anyone else repeating the 2 and 4 wheel world titles that he achieved.
I think you are being very hard on the very young Mr Rossi. All competitors can only beat the people around them at the time. You cannot beat history. I think it is enough to say that he is the best at the moment and should be held in the same esteem as the great riders of yesteryear.
I would love to see Rossi at a top F1 team with top support. (Remember he took a pay cut to go to Honda and paid his crew a bonus for going with him to Yamaha.) He would need a top team principle and a top engineer to provide support and guidance and he would need a very competitive team mate to use as a yard stick.
So who would be the team to tempt him away from MotoGP?
And he has said in the past that he will ride for Yamaha in 2006 and that he will probably end his MotoGP career at Yamaha.
I would love to see Rossi at a top F1 team with top support. (Remember he took a pay cut to go to Honda and paid his crew a bonus for going with him to Yamaha.) He would need a top team principle and a top engineer to provide support and guidance and he would need a very competitive team mate to use as a yard stick.
So who would be the team to tempt him away from MotoGP?
And he has said in the past that he will ride for Yamaha in 2006 and that he will probably end his MotoGP career at Yamaha.
door said:
I think you are being very hard on the very young Mr Rossi. All competitors can only beat the people around them at the time. You cannot beat history. I think it is enough to say that he is the best at the moment and should be held in the same esteem as the great riders of yesteryear.
I would love to see Rossi at a top F1 team with top support. (Remember he took a pay cut to go to Honda and paid his crew a bonus for going with him to Yamaha.) He would need a top team principle and a top engineer to provide support and guidance and he would need a very competitive team mate to use as a yard stick.
So who would be the team to tempt him away from MotoGP?
And he has said in the past that he will ride for Yamaha in 2006 and that he will probably end his MotoGP career at Yamaha.
There's an old sporting cliche about only being as good as your last result. Rossi was beaten into third place at Laguna Seca by Hayden and his team mate,Colin Edwards, on a supposedly identical bike. Although the truth of those situations is likely to be that Rossi would get the latest development parts before his team mate. When he learns to grow up a bit, I might stop knocking him: He was supposedly the cause of the rift with Max which started years ago, AFAIK he still has not returned the winners trophy for the 2003 Britsh GP which was stripped from him post-race for a yellow flag overtake, and now, according to Melandri, they were friends until Melandri had the audacity to overtake Rossi during a race, and now Rossi doesn't talk to him!
A large part of his success in the top class is down to Jerry Burgess, who's been around for ever (even worked with Mamola!) and who guided Mick Doohan to his titles. So yes, he would need some expert guidance in F1 were it ever to come about. But I can't see it. I know Kimi was plucked from relative obscurity to join the circus, but drivers on the whole tend to graduate through lesser single seater open wheel championships. One of the greatest racers of the "modern era", Eddie Lawson, who won the top class four times, then tried his hand at cars. I saw him race at Phoenix in '94 in the Indy Lights series, but he was never sucessful, and now races karts for fun with Wayne Rainey. Crossing over is not easy.
7.
flemke said:
Alonso will not go to Ferrari unless as rumoured in the press that the now CEO at Renault decides to sell the team, as he is definatly not a motorsport fan... Raikkonen is more than set to stay with McLaren as is Montoya
Your predicitons may well turn out to be correct, but may I ask why you are so confident about them?
Your mistaking the fact that he's managed by Flavio, im pretty sure that as long as Renault are around and Flavio is there too, Alonso will be in the Ren - no question, he runs the team he manages probably the best driver in F1, he'd be mad to give him up!.
LancsDriver said:That's a fact, but we can't overlook that Briatore has always made it clear that he has no particular sentimental interest in F1; to him it's only a business proposition.
Your mistaking the fact that he's managed by Flavio, im pretty sure that as long as Renault are around and Flavio is there too, Alonso will be in the Ren - no question, he runs the team he manages probably the best driver in F1, he'd be mad to give him up!.
I don't know what sort of cut the guy with the embroidered slippers would get if Alonso were to go to Ferrari, nor do I know what economic interest he has in the Renault team. It seems likely that if he thought that he would pocket a lot more lira by selling Alonso than by retaining him, the Spaniard would be on the next bus to Maranello.
Flemke has hit it on the head - for Flav it's all business and massaging his ego. He only extended his and Alonso's Renault contract for one year and he'll be out after that. I do not believe he has any financial interest in either Renault or Mechachrome - he does have an interest in GP2 though and will retain a Renault connection through that.
Ferrari has the best personnel and a (big)budget that it uses very wisely (unlike Toyota!). It has already committed to F1 for 2008 and beyond, has kept Phillip Morris as a sponsor post the tobacco ban and I believe has Vodafone under long term contract, with no shortage of other sponsors willing to sign on.
Ferrari is by far the best place for Alonso to be, Ghosn has too many excuses and opportunities to pull Renault out of F1 over the next 3 years. I was massively surprised that the departures of Mark Smith and Mike Gascoyne didn't damage the team, but can only assume that if more key personnel such as Tim Densham decide to leave, the team could go down.
Ferrari has the best personnel and a (big)budget that it uses very wisely (unlike Toyota!). It has already committed to F1 for 2008 and beyond, has kept Phillip Morris as a sponsor post the tobacco ban and I believe has Vodafone under long term contract, with no shortage of other sponsors willing to sign on.
Ferrari is by far the best place for Alonso to be, Ghosn has too many excuses and opportunities to pull Renault out of F1 over the next 3 years. I was massively surprised that the departures of Mark Smith and Mike Gascoyne didn't damage the team, but can only assume that if more key personnel such as Tim Densham decide to leave, the team could go down.
davidd said:http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/news/story?id=1787125
Why do people think that Rossi will be any good at all in an F1 Car?
Some very interesting view points on this thread. I must admit, I can't see Ferrari looking at Button. I wanted to believe that Button was a great racer and future champion, but in the past few races where he's been in reasonable grid positions, he's just gone backwards fast. I hope he proves me wrong, but I can't see it.
LexSport said:
Some very interesting view points on this thread. I must admit, I can't see Ferrari looking at Button. I wanted to believe that Button was a great racer and future champion, but in the past few races where he's been in reasonable grid positions, he's just gone backwards fast. I hope he proves me wrong, but I can't see it.
We have some hope in that Mansell was a World Champ Whinger, retired and still came back to race brilliantly and win the title, albeit in an unbeatable car. Button has got to start doing some bulldog driving - maybe Nige can mentor him ... . . maybe Jense should grow a huge 'tache?
I still think Button has what it takes to be a world champ. Watching him "live" as I have done in both race and testing, his skills are superb - very much like Prost he eases the car into corners. But then Fisichella is also a smooth driver and I don't think he has what it takes to be a consistent winner, even allowing for his car failures.
Button was unlucky last year to come up against a Ferrari that was virtually unbeatable. This year BAR, like Ferrari, have fallen victim to the massive jump in competitiveness of Renault and McLaren.
Button was unlucky last year to come up against a Ferrari that was virtually unbeatable. This year BAR, like Ferrari, have fallen victim to the massive jump in competitiveness of Renault and McLaren.
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