overtaking under safety car rewarded?
Discussion
You can still protest a penalty to the stewards for being inadequate if you feel strongly enough about it and you believe there’s enough precedent to suggest it should be increased.
The Clerks don’t always get it right on the day particularly when it comes to penalties being too harsh or insufficient. No one should be shy of using the judicial process and if you’re confident in your opinion you’ll likely get your cash back, as it only needs the penalty to be increased slightly for the appeal to be upheld.
ETA - for appeals to the stewards the 30 minute clock starts from the time of the clerks judgement on a given incident, not from the publishing of the results
The Clerks don’t always get it right on the day particularly when it comes to penalties being too harsh or insufficient. No one should be shy of using the judicial process and if you’re confident in your opinion you’ll likely get your cash back, as it only needs the penalty to be increased slightly for the appeal to be upheld.
ETA - for appeals to the stewards the 30 minute clock starts from the time of the clerks judgement on a given incident, not from the publishing of the results
Edited by The Wookie on Thursday 10th June 15:12
n3il123 said:
And that is the important bit, as some clerks will hold the publication of the results until they have spoken to drivers etc so the 30 minute clock doesn't start until then.
To me, one good thing about how events are currently being run is the online notice board. To me, it makes things easier and quicker. 
I was once faced with a difficult decision when a verbal agreement over a technical matter with the organisers was reneged on at the last minute and I threatened to officially protest only to be informed by the clerk of the course that if I did our car would be put to the back of the grid pending the outcome - (which he said he had the power to do) and since it was the last day of a championship - that obviously wasn't an option.
It has been explained that those that help us race (marshalls and the like) get regular updates and training to help them administer the rules but busy sponsors and drivers don't have time to keep up with all that in the same way and depend on fair play and common sense to rule. Yes you could say it is their own fault then if they don't know how to protest but it is supposed to be a sport and the essence of sport to me is fairness for all and no really poor decisions, cheating or favouritism - which in this case I feel was lacking.
Oh well - it's too late now I suppose.
Baz
It has been explained that those that help us race (marshalls and the like) get regular updates and training to help them administer the rules but busy sponsors and drivers don't have time to keep up with all that in the same way and depend on fair play and common sense to rule. Yes you could say it is their own fault then if they don't know how to protest but it is supposed to be a sport and the essence of sport to me is fairness for all and no really poor decisions, cheating or favouritism - which in this case I feel was lacking.
Oh well - it's too late now I suppose.
Baz
hartech said:
It has been explained that those that help us race (marshalls and the like) get regular updates and training to help them administer the rules but busy sponsors and drivers don't have time to keep up with all that in the same way and depend on fair play and common sense to rule.
Baz
So you don't know the rules of the sport you partake in but it's not your fault? Is that what you are saying?Baz
No wonder some of us have got to the point of wondering if it worth it.
The basic principles of protesting haven't changed in years.
Drumroll said:
hartech said:
It has been explained that those that help us race (marshalls and the like) get regular updates and training to help them administer the rules but busy sponsors and drivers don't have time to keep up with all that in the same way and depend on fair play and common sense to rule.
Baz
So you don't know the rules of the sport you partake in but it's not your fault? Is that what you are saying?Baz
No wonder some of us have got to the point of wondering if it worth it.
The basic principles of protesting haven't changed in years.
For f
ks sake the rules are published every fking year, everyone has access to the fking blue book, everyone has access to the series/championship specific regulations, how does a driver not have fking time to read them? It's not like race weekends don't include a whole load of standing the fk around doing fk all, not to mention the times one is not at a fking race circuit. If you haven't read the rules I have to wonder what else you haven't read? Does your car conform the to the blue book and your series specific regulations? Do you manage to read the timetable and final instructions? Do you manage to wipe your own arse?
Series co-ordinator here and I f
king despair!Apologies I may have got a bit sweary here, I have spent the better part of a decade as a co-ordinator/club steward/club dogsbody/racing driver and it still amazes me that people claim to not have time to read the rules but magically expect them enforced when they aren't even aware of them in the first place.
Dan BSCS said:
I really can’t understand why Drumroll got his knickers in a twist and got so defensive. While there was clearly emotion from the OP, the facts were all there and there was no misleading information. But some people just like an argument. 
Perhaps you now understand why I was "getting my knickers in a twist" all my post responding to the OP was not about the outcome but more to do with the lack of understanding of the procedure. Something he has now admitted he doesn't have time to do, (but he does have time to post on here)
I used to care passionately about motorsport (even delaying an operation for cancer so I could attend an event) Not so much now and in a large part, it is due to the lack of understanding of what is actually involved in running a meeting by competitors/entrants.
To be fair to the OP, he is neither the driver nor the entrant (as far as I am aware), so it is not his responsibility to understand the procedures for appealing a Clerk’s decision.
You have come across as a bit of a cock to be honest. He asked for people’s opinions on a decision that had been made. Simple as that. There was no need for any of the high and mighty crap you gave him IMO.
You have come across as a bit of a cock to be honest. He asked for people’s opinions on a decision that had been made. Simple as that. There was no need for any of the high and mighty crap you gave him IMO.
Edited by Dan BSCS on Monday 14th June 20:52
Drumroll said:
hartech said:
It has been explained that those that help us race (marshalls and the like) get regular updates and training to help them administer the rules but busy sponsors and drivers don't have time to keep up with all that in the same way and depend on fair play and common sense to rule.
Baz
So you don't know the rules of the sport you partake in but it's not your fault? Is that what you are saying?Baz
No wonder some of us have got to the point of wondering if it worth it.
The basic principles of protesting haven't changed in years.
Marshalls get the same regular updates as the drivers. Well except that marshalls possibly get more to cover all the different series that exist so that means that marshalls need to try and remember what the rules are on that day...great fund when something like caterhams/minis all look the same but run across different clubs/series.
Seems to be a misconception in a couple of previous posts about the role of a marshal.
When I was marshalling, we wouldn't get involved in any series specific issues unless they impacted on the on track running of the race / meeting. Things such as standing / rolling start, safety car or red flag, etc.
These issues would be communicated to us at the marshals' briefing at the beginning of the day. We certainly didn't get 'trained' but over a period of time, you did pick up who did what and when, etc. Marshals training is primarily safety related (incident handling, fire fighting etc) or flagging, so common across all disciplines and series.
Wrt this particular thread, the marshals on post would certainly report any overtaking under yellows, which would then be passed up the chain of command to race control and I guess ultimately the C of C. A marshal can only report something, he / she can't action anything.
The only exception to this which I can think of is when an experienced marshal is appointed as a 'judge of fact' for track limits or similar.
Anything involving series specific judgements would be via series co-ordinator or scrutineer, who would be appointed by the series itself and would normally travel around from track to track to ensure continuity.
Kim
When I was marshalling, we wouldn't get involved in any series specific issues unless they impacted on the on track running of the race / meeting. Things such as standing / rolling start, safety car or red flag, etc.
These issues would be communicated to us at the marshals' briefing at the beginning of the day. We certainly didn't get 'trained' but over a period of time, you did pick up who did what and when, etc. Marshals training is primarily safety related (incident handling, fire fighting etc) or flagging, so common across all disciplines and series.
Wrt this particular thread, the marshals on post would certainly report any overtaking under yellows, which would then be passed up the chain of command to race control and I guess ultimately the C of C. A marshal can only report something, he / she can't action anything.
The only exception to this which I can think of is when an experienced marshal is appointed as a 'judge of fact' for track limits or similar.
Anything involving series specific judgements would be via series co-ordinator or scrutineer, who would be appointed by the series itself and would normally travel around from track to track to ensure continuity.
Kim
kimducati said:
Seems to be a misconception in a couple of previous posts about the role of a marshal.
When I was marshalling, we wouldn't get involved in any series specific issues unless they impacted on the on track running of the race / meeting. Things such as standing / rolling start, safety car or red flag, etc.
These issues would be communicated to us at the marshals' briefing at the beginning of the day. We certainly didn't get 'trained' but over a period of time, you did pick up who did what and when, etc. Marshals training is primarily safety related (incident handling, fire fighting etc) or flagging, so common across all disciplines and series.
Wrt this particular thread, the marshals on post would certainly report any overtaking under yellows, which would then be passed up the chain of command to race control and I guess ultimately the C of C. A marshal can only report something, he / she can't action anything.
The only exception to this which I can think of is when an experienced marshal is appointed as a 'judge of fact' for track limits or similar.
Anything involving series specific judgements would be via series co-ordinator or scrutineer, who would be appointed by the series itself and would normally travel around from track to track to ensure continuity.
Kim
Fair point, i was thinking more of the pit/assembly/start marshals who might be given a briefing on a series specific day (unless they follow that series). Scrutineers ought to be very well read but wouldn't know a yellow flag from a meat ball When I was marshalling, we wouldn't get involved in any series specific issues unless they impacted on the on track running of the race / meeting. Things such as standing / rolling start, safety car or red flag, etc.
These issues would be communicated to us at the marshals' briefing at the beginning of the day. We certainly didn't get 'trained' but over a period of time, you did pick up who did what and when, etc. Marshals training is primarily safety related (incident handling, fire fighting etc) or flagging, so common across all disciplines and series.
Wrt this particular thread, the marshals on post would certainly report any overtaking under yellows, which would then be passed up the chain of command to race control and I guess ultimately the C of C. A marshal can only report something, he / she can't action anything.
The only exception to this which I can think of is when an experienced marshal is appointed as a 'judge of fact' for track limits or similar.
Anything involving series specific judgements would be via series co-ordinator or scrutineer, who would be appointed by the series itself and would normally travel around from track to track to ensure continuity.
Kim
.Rolling start might not get passed onto the posts until the race starts.
That's right I am not a competitor or entrant but am involved on the outskirts and have a perfect right to express my comments are observations and invited opinion - that's all. It just seems to me that if it takes training and frequent updates to keep the people involved in running things safely and fairly informed and up to date - where are the courses for drivers and entrants. If it is so easy to read up on all the rules then why the need for training and reminders anyway. It is clear to me from the response of one particular individual exactly why unfair decisions can be made - no tolerance - no reasoning and always blaming everyone else if they have a different view of things - and i must say the vast majority of those running things do - do a fantastic job fairly and with care and integrity - but in my opinion (which I have a right to express) this particular example showed poor decision making, unfairness and did set an example that you can gain a Championship point if you overtake on a safety car warning - and should never have been allowed.
Quite, plus in my experience the average driver isn't very interested in any of the rules that don't gain an advantage or avoid a penalty, and is unlikely to give a stuff about The Procedures involved in running a race meeting.
In fact I'd go as far to say that people who are interested in officialdom and procedures find their calling in being race officials and following their procedures.
I do find one then complaining "you drivers don't understand what we have to do" amusing too. If it's gratitude and a warm inner glow one is after, perhaps do charity work instead?
In this instance, making a bad choice as to penalty and then saying I can't change it, the poor driver who overtook under yellows would get points on his licence, is a pretty poor position to take. Makes a terrible decision, then hides behind the rules.
In fact I'd go as far to say that people who are interested in officialdom and procedures find their calling in being race officials and following their procedures.
I do find one then complaining "you drivers don't understand what we have to do" amusing too. If it's gratitude and a warm inner glow one is after, perhaps do charity work instead?
In this instance, making a bad choice as to penalty and then saying I can't change it, the poor driver who overtook under yellows would get points on his licence, is a pretty poor position to take. Makes a terrible decision, then hides behind the rules.
As a Race license holder and licensed Clerk of Course, I have watched this thread from the start with interest.
I won't be drawn on the OP content, without all the facts presented to the Clerk on the day, it would be wrong of me to give an opinion.
I will respond on the training element; to become an Interclub Clerk (what was National B), involves training modules over 12-18 month period and hands on training, culminating in an assessment. Once qualified you can then gain signatures and a further assessment after another 12 months to become National Clerk (what was National A), then International and so on.
While there isn't any fixed weekly/monthly training courses through the year (unless you are seeking a license upgrade), Motorsport UK do issue information bulletins through the year. there are also seminars we attend every other year (or Zoom of recent) to maintain our grades.
As a competitor a quick scan through the Blue Book, anything in red print has changed.
Race officials don't expect Competitors to know the BB inside out. Being relatively familiar with section C & Q for circuit racers would be handy though.
Honestly, I don't know it inside out, but I do know how to find relevant sections as and when needed.
The Judicial procedure is there for all to see, it is a fair system with the right to appeal and escalate.
There is also a handy Resource Centre on the Motorsport UK website.
As a racer (before my Clerking days) I have been at the wrong end of the table to a Clerk, picked up points (when I genuinely felt there were mitigating circumstances, I could have appealed, but took it on the chin).
Since Clerking, I have also had a decision overturned by a Steward when it was appealed, every day is a school day...
I do Clerking as it keeps me close to Racing, I like to feel I'm giving something back to the sport. I'm not seeking "gratitude and a warm inner glow" that was mentioned above, I'm not aware of any glory seeking officials, mainly because there is no glory in a 12 hour unpaid day.
Unfortunately most Competitor - Clerk interactions are briefings you most likely don't want to attend, or if your presence is requested in Race Control.
Pre-Covid, an offer I would often make to a competitor, is spend 10-20 mins in Race Control, have a look what goes on behind the scenes, you may find it interesting.
I won't be drawn on the OP content, without all the facts presented to the Clerk on the day, it would be wrong of me to give an opinion.
I will respond on the training element; to become an Interclub Clerk (what was National B), involves training modules over 12-18 month period and hands on training, culminating in an assessment. Once qualified you can then gain signatures and a further assessment after another 12 months to become National Clerk (what was National A), then International and so on.
While there isn't any fixed weekly/monthly training courses through the year (unless you are seeking a license upgrade), Motorsport UK do issue information bulletins through the year. there are also seminars we attend every other year (or Zoom of recent) to maintain our grades.
As a competitor a quick scan through the Blue Book, anything in red print has changed.
Race officials don't expect Competitors to know the BB inside out. Being relatively familiar with section C & Q for circuit racers would be handy though.
Honestly, I don't know it inside out, but I do know how to find relevant sections as and when needed.
The Judicial procedure is there for all to see, it is a fair system with the right to appeal and escalate.
There is also a handy Resource Centre on the Motorsport UK website.
As a racer (before my Clerking days) I have been at the wrong end of the table to a Clerk, picked up points (when I genuinely felt there were mitigating circumstances, I could have appealed, but took it on the chin).
Since Clerking, I have also had a decision overturned by a Steward when it was appealed, every day is a school day...
I do Clerking as it keeps me close to Racing, I like to feel I'm giving something back to the sport. I'm not seeking "gratitude and a warm inner glow" that was mentioned above, I'm not aware of any glory seeking officials, mainly because there is no glory in a 12 hour unpaid day.
Unfortunately most Competitor - Clerk interactions are briefings you most likely don't want to attend, or if your presence is requested in Race Control.
Pre-Covid, an offer I would often make to a competitor, is spend 10-20 mins in Race Control, have a look what goes on behind the scenes, you may find it interesting.
Notwen said:
As a Race license holder and licensed Clerk of Course, I have watched this thread from the start with interest.
I won't be drawn on the OP content, without all the facts presented to the Clerk on the day, it would be wrong of me to give an opinion.
I will respond on the training element; to become an Interclub Clerk (what was National B), involves training modules over 12-18 month period and hands on training, culminating in an assessment. Once qualified you can then gain signatures and a further assessment after another 12 months to become National Clerk (what was National A), then International and so on.
While there isn't any fixed weekly/monthly training courses through the year (unless you are seeking a license upgrade), Motorsport UK do issue information bulletins through the year. there are also seminars we attend every other year (or Zoom of recent) to maintain our grades.
As a competitor a quick scan through the Blue Book, anything in red print has changed.
Race officials don't expect Competitors to know the BB inside out. Being relatively familiar with section C & Q for circuit racers would be handy though.
Honestly, I don't know it inside out, but I do know how to find relevant sections as and when needed.
The Judicial procedure is there for all to see, it is a fair system with the right to appeal and escalate.
There is also a handy Resource Centre on the Motorsport UK website.
As a racer (before my Clerking days) I have been at the wrong end of the table to a Clerk, picked up points (when I genuinely felt there were mitigating circumstances, I could have appealed, but took it on the chin).
Since Clerking, I have also had a decision overturned by a Steward when it was appealed, every day is a school day...
I do Clerking as it keeps me close to Racing, I like to feel I'm giving something back to the sport. I'm not seeking "gratitude and a warm inner glow" that was mentioned above, I'm not aware of any glory seeking officials, mainly because there is no glory in a 12 hour unpaid day.
Unfortunately most Competitor - Clerk interactions are briefings you most likely don't want to attend, or if your presence is requested in Race Control.
Pre-Covid, an offer I would often make to a competitor, is spend 10-20 mins in Race Control, have a look what goes on behind the scenes, you may find it interesting.
I appreciate the reply - for the record I wasn't suggesting that's the motivation for race officials, it was in reply to an earlier comment which suggested a "why do I bother" attitude from someone because race drivers weren't taking sufficient interest in the details of the event procedures and this was in some way an offence or slight.I won't be drawn on the OP content, without all the facts presented to the Clerk on the day, it would be wrong of me to give an opinion.
I will respond on the training element; to become an Interclub Clerk (what was National B), involves training modules over 12-18 month period and hands on training, culminating in an assessment. Once qualified you can then gain signatures and a further assessment after another 12 months to become National Clerk (what was National A), then International and so on.
While there isn't any fixed weekly/monthly training courses through the year (unless you are seeking a license upgrade), Motorsport UK do issue information bulletins through the year. there are also seminars we attend every other year (or Zoom of recent) to maintain our grades.
As a competitor a quick scan through the Blue Book, anything in red print has changed.
Race officials don't expect Competitors to know the BB inside out. Being relatively familiar with section C & Q for circuit racers would be handy though.
Honestly, I don't know it inside out, but I do know how to find relevant sections as and when needed.
The Judicial procedure is there for all to see, it is a fair system with the right to appeal and escalate.
There is also a handy Resource Centre on the Motorsport UK website.
As a racer (before my Clerking days) I have been at the wrong end of the table to a Clerk, picked up points (when I genuinely felt there were mitigating circumstances, I could have appealed, but took it on the chin).
Since Clerking, I have also had a decision overturned by a Steward when it was appealed, every day is a school day...
I do Clerking as it keeps me close to Racing, I like to feel I'm giving something back to the sport. I'm not seeking "gratitude and a warm inner glow" that was mentioned above, I'm not aware of any glory seeking officials, mainly because there is no glory in a 12 hour unpaid day.
Unfortunately most Competitor - Clerk interactions are briefings you most likely don't want to attend, or if your presence is requested in Race Control.
Pre-Covid, an offer I would often make to a competitor, is spend 10-20 mins in Race Control, have a look what goes on behind the scenes, you may find it interesting.
What a balanced, realistic and reasonable response from you Notwen - thank you very much for that.
My own view (having also raced in my youth but on motorcycles) is that pretty well all racers are risk takers by nature - want to win and take chances and that I feel it should be the responsibility of those running things to ensure that what is obviously a very competitive and risk taking pastime does not endanger others unnecessarily and that therefore breaches of the rules that result in a benefit in the final track or Championship results should be a top priority for them to clamp down on and that in this case the report itself carries enough information to see that the penalty was far too lenient.
I hope that by raising the issue in public - the officials involved may reflect on their positions and improve their reactions to similar events in future.
Baz
My own view (having also raced in my youth but on motorcycles) is that pretty well all racers are risk takers by nature - want to win and take chances and that I feel it should be the responsibility of those running things to ensure that what is obviously a very competitive and risk taking pastime does not endanger others unnecessarily and that therefore breaches of the rules that result in a benefit in the final track or Championship results should be a top priority for them to clamp down on and that in this case the report itself carries enough information to see that the penalty was far too lenient.
I hope that by raising the issue in public - the officials involved may reflect on their positions and improve their reactions to similar events in future.
Baz
majordad said:
I’ve lost position when being overtaken under a yellow, felt aggrieved at the time and wondered why it wasn’t picked up by the officials. But, that’s motorsport, it’s not a conspiracy. I hope !!
The short answer is that there's not enough officials (marshals) around to be able to see everything. Any doubt in the radio report and it'll get filed to see if a competitor reports it if you're lucky!Gassing Station | General Motorsport | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff