Cadwell park 17th July
Discussion
I was at Cadwell this weekend. Great day with lots of sunshine but small entry of TVR's unfortunately. Pity about the Thorpedo suffering an engine fire as it was cruising. Luckily not too much harm done!
I have just been looking at the lap records and was wondering why the TVR times are so much slower than anything else including mini clubmans !!! Was it raining last year or something.
For example Class B lap record 1:59.68 65.36mph
Classic Gp1 TCC Mini clubman 1:53.68, 68.81mph
A 2cv is only 10 secs slower.
????
I have just been looking at the lap records and was wondering why the TVR times are so much slower than anything else including mini clubmans !!! Was it raining last year or something.
For example Class B lap record 1:59.68 65.36mph
Classic Gp1 TCC Mini clubman 1:53.68, 68.81mph
A 2cv is only 10 secs slower.
????
First off I'd like to thank all of the TVR owners who attended the Cadwell race, I've never seen so many in the camping area and the support was most welcome.
The number of cars on the grid was a bit disappointing but hopefully there will be more cars at Donnington. I couldn't run due to an engine problem during the Saturday test and a class A car was damaged on the same day. Additional entries are expected at Donny.
Not sure of Class Records but I'm sure Graham did a 1:42 this weekend in Class B and a 1:47 was recorded by a class A car this year. Last years race was errrr wet, to say the very least so probably explains the times you've seen.
Ceejay
The number of cars on the grid was a bit disappointing but hopefully there will be more cars at Donnington. I couldn't run due to an engine problem during the Saturday test and a class A car was damaged on the same day. Additional entries are expected at Donny.
Not sure of Class Records but I'm sure Graham did a 1:42 this weekend in Class B and a 1:47 was recorded by a class A car this year. Last years race was errrr wet, to say the very least so probably explains the times you've seen.
Ceejay
ceejay said:
First off I'd like to thank all of the TVR owners who attended the Cadwell race, I've never seen so many in the camping area and the support was most welcome.
The number of cars on the grid was a bit disappointing but hopefully there will be more cars at Donnington. I couldn't run due to an engine problem during the Saturday test and a class A car was damaged on the same day. Additional entries are expected at Donny.
Not sure of Class Records but I'm sure Graham did a 1:42 this weekend in Class B and a 1:47 was recorded by a class A car this year. Last years race was errrr wet, to say the very least so probably explains the times you've seen.
Ceejay
We should hopefully be out at Donington Cliff
engine is with the builder, hope to collect on friday, yay!!
Good news Joolz, The yellow thing should fly. are you going to stick some brakes on it before then? Cliff might need them If he's behind Marc
From talking to people at the weekend the numbers are moving in the right direction and we'll be back into double figures by Donny with 3 more cars at least to come for croft.
Our other car is signed up for at least two rounds, so I'd better get it put together.
The Tuscan is back on axle stands with the dampers off, so the spacers can have the correct size hole drilled in them. the temp bolts are almost U bolts... the rear ride height must have dropped by about 10mm during the race
This weekend the TVR's posted some of the fastest times, and lots of the other stuff was on slicks !!!!
trackcar said:
First off I'd like to thank all of the TVR owners who attended the Cadwell race, I've never seen so many in the camping area and the support was most welcome.
The number of cars on the grid was a bit disappointing but hopefully there will be more cars at Donnington. I couldn't run due to an engine problem during the Saturday test and a class A car was damaged on the same day. Additional entries are expected at Donny.
Not sure of Class Records but I'm sure Graham did a 1:42 this weekend in Class B and a 1:47 was recorded by a class A car this year. Last years race was errrr wet, to say the very least so probably explains the times you've seen.
Ceejay
We should hopefully be out at Donington Cliff
Graham did 1:44.549 - numbers were very low - just the long haul to Cad?
I preface this comment with a couple of riders:
1) I'm a TVR enthusiast, I own 2 TVRs and I'm the ex-RO of the TVRCC City Region
2) I was at Cadwell competing in Group 1 Touring Cars
So with that out of the way I can begin.
The above comments mention low numbers but come-on guys, 5 cars out on the track makes the USA F1 look like a good turnout.
I watched the race from the "grandstand" and it could not have been very interesting for the drivers let alone the spectators.
We are in an environment where series are being culled due to low entrant numbers, surely unless another 10 cars appear on the grid then perhaps the time has come to look at amalgamating into another series (750mc roadsports perhaps)
Any thoughts on the future of the TVRCC Challenge?
1) I'm a TVR enthusiast, I own 2 TVRs and I'm the ex-RO of the TVRCC City Region
2) I was at Cadwell competing in Group 1 Touring Cars
So with that out of the way I can begin.
The above comments mention low numbers but come-on guys, 5 cars out on the track makes the USA F1 look like a good turnout.
I watched the race from the "grandstand" and it could not have been very interesting for the drivers let alone the spectators.
We are in an environment where series are being culled due to low entrant numbers, surely unless another 10 cars appear on the grid then perhaps the time has come to look at amalgamating into another series (750mc roadsports perhaps)
Any thoughts on the future of the TVRCC Challenge?
apguy said:
The above comments mention low numbers but come-on guys, 5 cars out on the track makes the USA F1 look like a good turnout.
I watched the race from the "grandstand" and it could not have been very interesting for the drivers let alone the spectators.
We are in an environment where series are being culled due to low entrant numbers, surely unless another 10 cars appear on the grid then perhaps the time has come to look at amalgamating into another series (750mc roadsports perhaps)
Any thoughts on the future of the TVRCC Challenge?
I'll qualify this with saying, I'm a TVR enthusiast (own a Tasmin and Chim), I spanner for one of the current TVRCC Challenge cars, I'm preping my own car to race in the TVRCC Challenge in 2006 and would hate to see the TVRCC Challenge loose its identity if merged with another series, but also acknowedge htat a 6 car grid is unacceptable.
Theres almost 20 Tasmins sat in garages waiting for someone to drive them, add that to
4 Tasmins (Cliff's (engine trouble at Cadwell), Kevan's, Gary's (albeit written off at Cadwell))
Grahams pink Taz that i believe has drivers for the rest of the season,
Pat Smith's Tasmin,
Marc's Griff,
Simons Griff,
Thorpedo,
Grahams Tuscan
next year my Chim,
plus other occasional cars like the 3000M, the old school Griff etc etc thats virtually a packed grid.
The problem as I see it is
a) apathy
b) people being put off by owners wanting silly money for their cars, there was one on eBay pre-season for £12k starting bid, no-one touced it. You could of bought a new Ginetta G20 for similar money and race on the same weekend as the British GT's and F3. Which would you choose?
c) to be competitive you need to spend £££'s on uprated suspension, engine components, brakes etc etc after all it was meant to be a 'budget' series, my road Tasmin wouldnt stand a chance even in Class A despite mildly uprated suspension and brakes
When i get on track next year in the Chim I'd love to be fighting to get on the grid let alone near the front. I have to say that once I've found my feet, or is that wheels, I'd look at running in the 750MC series to experience racing as well as the TVRCC challenge 'sprints'
Moan over
Regards
Iain
Hi yes we sufferend a bit of attrition at Cadwell, a small entry to start with 8, 1 smash and 1 engine failure on saturday and then an engine fire during the race leaving only 5 left!!!!
FOr Donny we should be back up to 12 cars and 3-4 more for croft so we should be ok..
The series has huge potential and were looking at all ideas to keep things going or share track time with somthing interesting.
it does seem a little daft with 2 tvr series both struggling though..
It is also an unfortunate truth that its not just TVR racing that is a little under the weather at the moment, a lot of other and much higher profile championships are stuggling. I spotted one (non tvr) race the other day that had 3 entrants in 2 classes !!!!
Edited to say my qually time was in the 1:42's. Not bad for someone who once the adrenalin came down realised he was too Ill to drive home
>> Edited by Graham on Wednesday 20th July 19:02
FOr Donny we should be back up to 12 cars and 3-4 more for croft so we should be ok..
The series has huge potential and were looking at all ideas to keep things going or share track time with somthing interesting.
it does seem a little daft with 2 tvr series both struggling though..
It is also an unfortunate truth that its not just TVR racing that is a little under the weather at the moment, a lot of other and much higher profile championships are stuggling. I spotted one (non tvr) race the other day that had 3 entrants in 2 classes !!!!
Edited to say my qually time was in the 1:42's. Not bad for someone who once the adrenalin came down realised he was too Ill to drive home
>> Edited by Graham on Wednesday 20th July 19:02
I tend to agree with you Iain.
I'm not a good race driver, hence I don't race. i also have no money, hence I don't race. I also have little time to spare, hence I don't race.
However, there are a lot of TVR enthusiasts out there who are well paid, seem to have time to spare for activities and who do lots of track days / sprints / hillclimbs but choose not to race for one reason or another.
I believe one of the reasons is apathy as you say, but also the spiralling costs of byuilding a competitive car for even group A of the TVRCC series.
I firmly believe that the way you're going with a cheap Chim and minimal mods should be wholeheartedly applauded - it's a relatively current car (the most popular TVR ever) and the TVR fans car identify with it more than any other TVR produced.
You're exactly the sort of person we should be encouraging into the series and i believe that you'll win a lot of friends along the way, hopefully tempting a few others to buy early chims / griffs and play in group A too.
Preparing a tasmin to be competitive against the more modern cars is prohibitive now, although they can be made to go very well indeed .. but I'd like to see a return to the days of limited mods plus maybe a budget cap on the season - something like a sale at the end of the season so anyone can buy anyone else's car for a fixed fee, 8k for a tasmin maybe, 10k for a group B griff? .. that would cap costs and attract more interest? .. it works in other series so why not ours?
The TVRCC series will never be high-end partly because of the image of TVR as an entry-level supercar .. but escalating preparation costs and limited grids of cars that break will not do us any favours.
I very much urge any racers with cars in their garage doing nothing to put them up for hire though .. let people know they're available for a sensible price .. I'll even offer to spanner on them for peanuts (as long as cliff's car doesn't take too much of my time lol!!) to ensure more bums in seats and cars on grids.
It's time to turn this series around folks, and I guess it starts here! So who's got a car sitting at home with no driver? .. put it up for hire
Joo
I'm not a good race driver, hence I don't race. i also have no money, hence I don't race. I also have little time to spare, hence I don't race.
However, there are a lot of TVR enthusiasts out there who are well paid, seem to have time to spare for activities and who do lots of track days / sprints / hillclimbs but choose not to race for one reason or another.
I believe one of the reasons is apathy as you say, but also the spiralling costs of byuilding a competitive car for even group A of the TVRCC series.
I firmly believe that the way you're going with a cheap Chim and minimal mods should be wholeheartedly applauded - it's a relatively current car (the most popular TVR ever) and the TVR fans car identify with it more than any other TVR produced.
You're exactly the sort of person we should be encouraging into the series and i believe that you'll win a lot of friends along the way, hopefully tempting a few others to buy early chims / griffs and play in group A too.
Preparing a tasmin to be competitive against the more modern cars is prohibitive now, although they can be made to go very well indeed .. but I'd like to see a return to the days of limited mods plus maybe a budget cap on the season - something like a sale at the end of the season so anyone can buy anyone else's car for a fixed fee, 8k for a tasmin maybe, 10k for a group B griff? .. that would cap costs and attract more interest? .. it works in other series so why not ours?
The TVRCC series will never be high-end partly because of the image of TVR as an entry-level supercar .. but escalating preparation costs and limited grids of cars that break will not do us any favours.
I very much urge any racers with cars in their garage doing nothing to put them up for hire though .. let people know they're available for a sensible price .. I'll even offer to spanner on them for peanuts (as long as cliff's car doesn't take too much of my time lol!!) to ensure more bums in seats and cars on grids.
It's time to turn this series around folks, and I guess it starts here! So who's got a car sitting at home with no driver? .. put it up for hire
Joo
trackcar said:
I'll even offer to spanner on them for peanuts (as long as cliff's car doesn't take too much of my time lol!!) to ensure more bums in seats and cars on grids.
Joo
I'll hold you to that at Donny, Looks like topless is comming out to play !!!! now where did i put that engine...
I agree with trackcar, if there are cars around doing nothing then other people ( such as me) should be encouraged to " dip their toe in".
I would lobve to race and participate ina series of some description, howver would be puf off by the inital costs when I dont even know if it would be my thing.
If however there was an opportunity to get people involved though hiring or something similar ( with suitable contracts in place) it may encourage others ( such as me ) to get off their bums and get involved. The racing licence is pretty straightforward to get so really the series should be open to more people.
I would love to have a go, but after spending the 10-15k on a car, plus running costs etc, it seems very difficult to do.
I would love to hear about a tema that will run the cars and own them and you pay ona a race by race basis. ( Im sure they are out there, maybe I am missing something)
I would lobve to race and participate ina series of some description, howver would be puf off by the inital costs when I dont even know if it would be my thing.
If however there was an opportunity to get people involved though hiring or something similar ( with suitable contracts in place) it may encourage others ( such as me ) to get off their bums and get involved. The racing licence is pretty straightforward to get so really the series should be open to more people.
I would love to have a go, but after spending the 10-15k on a car, plus running costs etc, it seems very difficult to do.
I would love to hear about a tema that will run the cars and own them and you pay ona a race by race basis. ( Im sure they are out there, maybe I am missing something)
trackcar said:
A load of good stuff
Joo, while i agree with the sentiment of alot of what you say...
Where would you put a budget cap though, preping the car for next year is going to cost around £7250 just specing the cheapest bits i can find to meet the regs, plus buying the car, its about £16000 just before I get the car ready for a test session, and that not including my personal kit helmet suit plus I've probably left stuff of my budget. If folks really want to help, then surely there theres someone out there with a spare race seat and other bits i can buy 2nd hand
Cage £1,410.00
Fire Extinguisher £200.00
Race Seat £128.85
Seat Mounts £23.08
Chassis/Seat strentheners £70.44
Harness £117.70
Race Numbers £8.07
Battery Cut Out £22.73
Wheels (OEM) £0.00
Tyres eg Yoko A032 £495.75
Shocks & springs £486.45
Oil Cooler £161.27
Brakes £350.00
Oil & Filters (season)£109.99
Bushes £0.00
Engine Rebuild £3,624.00
QR Fasteners £30.00
Total £7238.33
The prep cost alone is more than some drivers will be spending this season. Then its the hit you take if sell the car on, thats £16000 cost to me, plus time and money spent to set the car up, I'm going to be mighty peeved if i'm forced to sell the car in October '06, especially for a fixed fee of £8k, when it will also be a 'usable' road car too.
If that sort of rule was enforced, i'd buy a Fiesta XR2i and buy a house, I wouldnt even contemplate the TVRCC series. My guaranteed salary is in the low £20k bracket, my personal investment into racing in the series is via a loan earlier this month (to buy the car) and any dividend I draw from the business (not Chassis 33, the other one), hence looking round for sponsorship and supplier partnerships, trying to raise my profile through PH and other media to help make it less painful on my wallet. To throw 8k out of the window in one year would be financial suicide. My hope is that i can run the car for a number of years and spread the cost of the car/prep over several seasons.
One of the problems with limited mods is that there are road cars that will have a higher spec than my Chim. As far as i can gather, there are very few cars out there driving seriously without 600mm discs, 27way ajustable shocks and an induction system more highly polished than the Hubble telescope, ok maybe not 600mm 27way, I exaggerate, but you get my drift. Look through the Chim and Griff forums, there must be hundreds of threads on the merits of Brembo, Wilwood, Nitron et al. My '06 budget wont accomodate any of them, so we're left with a similar quandary as dare i say it F1, in that there are production cars out there with more technology used than an F1 car. The comparison being that we either go for a series where is examplifies what a production TVR can ultimately become or we say look this is what you can do with your essentially standard TVR, come and play and let the GT boys be the standard bearers for TVR technology and reliability (they finished LM05 didnt they!)
I'm quite sure alot of what I've said is out of place for someone who technically has litte to do with the series at present. Likewise I'm quite sure alot of what I've said has been said before. It's not for me to dictate what should or shouldn't be done, I can only express my views, and I dont envy the likes of Simon, Graham etc who have to sort this all out.
If anyone wants to discuss things offline, get intouch via my profile.
Regards
Iain
obiwonkeyblokey said:
I would lobve to race and participate ina series of some description, howver would be puf off by the inital costs when I dont even know if it would be my thing.
If however there was an opportunity to get people involved though hiring or something similar ( with suitable contracts in place) it may encourage others ( such as me ) to get off their bums and get involved.
I would love to hear about a tema that will run the cars and own them and you pay ona a race by race basis. ( Im sure they are out there, maybe I am missing something)
There is but they charge silly money last time i asked them to prep and run a car for me.
Regards
Iain
Hi Iain.
You're spending way too much on your car for group a for your first season.
why do you need an engine rebuild? is it precautionary? why not use the existing engine? 3k is an effing expensive rebuild on a group a car unless you're wanting it to turn 7000rpm.. my 4 litre has done 101k miles of thrash and still hasn't gone bang .. if you were to rebuild it do it yourself anyway, don't pay for it!
70 pounds for reinforced seat mounts? can't you make them from freebie offcuts?
You probably don't even need rear springs and dampers .. just machine the lower spring seat circlip lower to lower the rear ride height and buy just some good quality alloy dampers for the front and some stiffer springs.
from what i see the cage and tyres are your biggest expense.
if you want to be competitive though you'd need to spend some money of course, but only because the series has evolved that way .. if there was a return to basic racing you could spend a lot less money.
You're spending way too much on your car for group a for your first season.
why do you need an engine rebuild? is it precautionary? why not use the existing engine? 3k is an effing expensive rebuild on a group a car unless you're wanting it to turn 7000rpm.. my 4 litre has done 101k miles of thrash and still hasn't gone bang .. if you were to rebuild it do it yourself anyway, don't pay for it!
70 pounds for reinforced seat mounts? can't you make them from freebie offcuts?
You probably don't even need rear springs and dampers .. just machine the lower spring seat circlip lower to lower the rear ride height and buy just some good quality alloy dampers for the front and some stiffer springs.
from what i see the cage and tyres are your biggest expense.
if you want to be competitive though you'd need to spend some money of course, but only because the series has evolved that way .. if there was a return to basic racing you could spend a lot less money.
Thanks for the replies so far and I'm glad that my question was taken in the manner that I intended (ie as a concerned enthusiast, rather than damning the series).
Some of the replies have highlighted what I personally thought:
The TVR CC series is fairly unique in that it uses a make/model with limited prev motorsport history and I believe that herein lies the problem. The series will fail to appeal to your MSA licence holder as it is not a Ford or Vauxhall, has comparitively high build costs (fibreglass car, non-std components, V6 or V8 engines etc), and it is not manufacturer supported (see Ginetta for a comparision).
Therefore it appears to be attractive only to those TVR enthusiasts who wish to put their toe in the motor racing water. (It would be interesting to note the number of prev competitors who have now moved to a different series)
Surely a championship would need more than just a niche pool of interested parties to maintain its numbers and status?
I think opening the series up to all TVR's was the correct move but I can't help but feel that there just aren't enough folks interested in campaigning TVR's for it to continue.
Some of the replies have highlighted what I personally thought:
The TVR CC series is fairly unique in that it uses a make/model with limited prev motorsport history and I believe that herein lies the problem. The series will fail to appeal to your MSA licence holder as it is not a Ford or Vauxhall, has comparitively high build costs (fibreglass car, non-std components, V6 or V8 engines etc), and it is not manufacturer supported (see Ginetta for a comparision).
Therefore it appears to be attractive only to those TVR enthusiasts who wish to put their toe in the motor racing water. (It would be interesting to note the number of prev competitors who have now moved to a different series)
Surely a championship would need more than just a niche pool of interested parties to maintain its numbers and status?
I think opening the series up to all TVR's was the correct move but I can't help but feel that there just aren't enough folks interested in campaigning TVR's for it to continue.
The cars done 121k
The front suspension is shot, proved that last night, rattles and clunks and weaves, plus needs new brakes, some spirited road driving last night soon made them fade, a fairly average set of grooved discs and race compound pads is budgeted at £350.
I used to work as a design engineer for R-R/Bentley Specialist Engines Division, (my degree was Automotive Engineering, despite now being an Architect/Developer) I know what goes into a well built engine that will last, and I dont have the skill, patience or kitchen table to do it. I want an engine that will last the season (hence i reckon on atleast 3 oil changes a season) without loosing oil pressure after 5mins testing or bugger its' big end after two test sessions if you catch where im coming from, in my book its a false economy to skimp on an engine. Do it once and do it properly. Engine in and out say 3 times a season, at what 3hours each way with my time charges at £50/hr minimum when im not playing with cars, that's the best part of £1k I'm loosing by not doing my day job, more by the time i've pissed off clients by not getting deliverables to them.
Seat mounts yes, get the mig out and do something, but thats the T.V.R. Services quote. Thinks like that are worst case scenario, but i'd rather put in the cost, and end up under budget, than leave things out and come in over budget.
I'm not entirely sure where more cash can be chopped out. the essentials (cages seat etc) come to £2k, then the rest is to make sure the car is competative, even if the driver isn't, I'm in the process of lining up a supplier/sponsor for the chassis set-up which to me is the most important perfomance mod i can have, but im still not convinced the engine will be up to the job for long, even though i do have 3 3.5 SD1 engines as W.C.S. fall back.
It will be intersting in the next week or so to see how my Tasmin with a stardard 2.8 fairs agaist my Chim with a standard 4ltr in a drag/play in the lanes etc, once the Tasmin is back on the road.
Regards
Iain
The front suspension is shot, proved that last night, rattles and clunks and weaves, plus needs new brakes, some spirited road driving last night soon made them fade, a fairly average set of grooved discs and race compound pads is budgeted at £350.
I used to work as a design engineer for R-R/Bentley Specialist Engines Division, (my degree was Automotive Engineering, despite now being an Architect/Developer) I know what goes into a well built engine that will last, and I dont have the skill, patience or kitchen table to do it. I want an engine that will last the season (hence i reckon on atleast 3 oil changes a season) without loosing oil pressure after 5mins testing or bugger its' big end after two test sessions if you catch where im coming from, in my book its a false economy to skimp on an engine. Do it once and do it properly. Engine in and out say 3 times a season, at what 3hours each way with my time charges at £50/hr minimum when im not playing with cars, that's the best part of £1k I'm loosing by not doing my day job, more by the time i've pissed off clients by not getting deliverables to them.
Seat mounts yes, get the mig out and do something, but thats the T.V.R. Services quote. Thinks like that are worst case scenario, but i'd rather put in the cost, and end up under budget, than leave things out and come in over budget.
I'm not entirely sure where more cash can be chopped out. the essentials (cages seat etc) come to £2k, then the rest is to make sure the car is competative, even if the driver isn't, I'm in the process of lining up a supplier/sponsor for the chassis set-up which to me is the most important perfomance mod i can have, but im still not convinced the engine will be up to the job for long, even though i do have 3 3.5 SD1 engines as W.C.S. fall back.
It will be intersting in the next week or so to see how my Tasmin with a stardard 2.8 fairs agaist my Chim with a standard 4ltr in a drag/play in the lanes etc, once the Tasmin is back on the road.
Regards
Iain
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