Cadwell park 17th July
Discussion
chassis 33 said:
I know what goes into a well built engine that will last, and I dont have the skill, patience or kitchen table to do it. I want an engine that will last the season (hence i reckon on atleast 3 oil changes a season) without loosing oil pressure after 5mins testing or bugger its' big end after two test sessions if you catch where im coming from, in my book its a false economy to skimp on an engine.
That's a bit harsh, we knew we weren't ready but turned out anyway to try and make numbers up. The engine is 'well built' it's just that no-one has ever put a 2.9 24V twin turbo into a racer before so we expect problems initially. I went this route because it promised decent power with relatively low cost re-build if it all went wrong plus it was different, which is good for the series. In any case the big ends are absolutely fine and the problems aren't due to oil pressure drop because of surge, this was managed fine by the driver on track.
When you race many things can go wrong and often do, especially during the initial tests. Even well built engines can fail on their first run.
Ceejay
ceejay said:
That's a bit harsh, we knew we weren't ready but turned out anyway to try and make numbers up. The engine is 'well built' it's just that no-one has ever put a 2.9 24V twin turbo into a racer before so we expect problems initially. I went this route because it promised decent power with relatively low cost re-build if it all went wrong plus it was different, which is good for the series. In any case the big ends are absolutely fine and the problems aren't due to oil pressure drop because of surge, this was managed fine by the driver on track.
When you race many things can go wrong and often do, especially during the initial tests. Even well built engines can fail on their first run.
Ceejay
Cliff, wasn't having a go and yes it was somewhat sly and harsh, sorry. I am mightly chuffed you made the effort even though it didnt pay off for you. Your not the only person to have engine problems this season, and it's somewhat made me cautious about the fragility of racing engines. The V6's, V8's and 4cyl cars have all had trouble in one form or another this year.
I'd rather get the engine built by someone who's reccomendation I trust that let myself make a right heath robinson of it.
Regards
Iain
apguy said:
I preface this comment with a couple of riders:
1) I'm a TVR enthusiast, I own 2 TVRs and I'm the ex-RO of the TVRCC City Region
2) I was at Cadwell competing in Group 1 Touring Cars
So with that out of the way I can begin.
The above comments mention low numbers but come-on guys, 5 cars out on the track makes the USA F1 look like a good turnout.
I watched the race from the "grandstand" and it could not have been very interesting for the drivers let alone the spectators.
+ TVR's it bent are expensive to fix - glass fiber on tubi chassis.
+ Brake rules as I think someone else said seem daft, when alot of road TVRs run on bigger than 273mm brakes - the std 260 fronts on a Griff / Chim 500 are SHIT for the road let alone for the track and they are I think even smaller still on the 4.0 / 4.5.
We are in an environment where series are being culled due to low entrant numbers, surely unless another 10 cars appear on the grid then perhaps the time has come to look at amalgamating into another series (750mc roadsports perhaps)
Any thoughts on the future of the TVRCC Challenge?
was going to post the other day on this.
One thing compared to MG / Tr championships that struck me was the £150 to join the championship vs < 1/3 of this for the above - race at same race pretty often. And the regs do seem a bit complex. Not going to race mine - but if I was a shit load would be needed to be done.
But those numbers (admittedly Cadwell often poor as far from midlands) but I have been on full grids.
But continued number like that and will be culled.
MSA look at average grid size across season and when I think it fall below 15 (maybe wrong on that - but a fixed) number that they are grilled on how to get numbers up or not allowed to run the championship.
>> Edited by jellison on Thursday 21st July 13:54
I take your point about your engine Iain, but i had a 4 litre rebuilt by V8 developments including 8 new liners and a new camshaft for 1600 pounds, how the heck do you get quoted 3700 pounds ??
I'd look into that if i were you ...
I reckon it'd be very easy to save at least 3 k off your build costs, but if you can't afford the time to do it yourself i guess you'll have toi pay someone to do it for you ...
i hope you can find the time to race it afterwards and not have to pay someone to do that for you aswell ..
I'd look into that if i were you ...
I reckon it'd be very easy to save at least 3 k off your build costs, but if you can't afford the time to do it yourself i guess you'll have toi pay someone to do it for you ...
i hope you can find the time to race it afterwards and not have to pay someone to do that for you aswell ..
The msa like a minimum of about 15 for a championship and want to see 20 before they will grant a new championship.
For a series like the tvrcc challenge its pure economics with the organising club. BARC in this case.
From what I've seen of cars in build by next season could be back up to the 20 odd cars we had in the height of the tasmin only series. We just need to get a reasonable number of cars out to the next few rounds, and are doing everything possible to sort that.
as for the registration fee, i've had 3 times that back in prize money sofar
G
For a series like the tvrcc challenge its pure economics with the organising club. BARC in this case.
From what I've seen of cars in build by next season could be back up to the 20 odd cars we had in the height of the tasmin only series. We just need to get a reasonable number of cars out to the next few rounds, and are doing everything possible to sort that.
as for the registration fee, i've had 3 times that back in prize money sofar
G
trackcar said:
I take your point about your engine Iain, but i had a 4 litre rebuilt by V8 developments including 8 new liners and a new camshaft for 1600 pounds, how the heck do you get quoted 3700 pounds ??
I'd look into that if i were you ...
I reckon it'd be very easy to save at least 3 k off your build costs, but if you can't afford the time to do it yourself i guess you'll have toi pay someone to do it for you ...
i hope you can find the time to race it afterwards and not have to pay someone to do that for you aswell ..
OI! SOD OFF!!!
I hate it when money becomes the bitch goddess we all have to bow before, however bills need paying etc etc, if i dont bring in the cash day in day out, then the racing is finished no matter how small a budget.
Engine spec
Strip and rebuild. Dyno run. £500
Balance £120
Gaskets £78
Port cylinder heads £860 Std. Size valves + double springs & steel retainers.
Camshaft £150
Port inlet manifold £110 Matched to inlet ports.
Steel timing chain assembly £88 Cloyes true roller.
Grind crankshaft & tuftride £125
Big end and main bearings £58
Lighten flywheel £35
AP HD clutch cover & plate £295
Rebore block .020" £185 Bores square to crank line & deck heights equalised.
Forged Omega .020" pistons. £600 Flat top piston with cut outs for valves.
Baffled sump £210
Total £3,414
That should be a right beasty of an engine, i reckon i need around 210bhp at the flywheel to get 150/ton (remeber its a road spec leather trimmed car) which is comfortable and easily do-able for even a standard a 4l but the trick will be sacrificing outright power to give torque out of the corners etc
The rest is £300 of consumables and the like, filters, fluids replace the "heat treated" pipe from filter to AFM, coolant sensor, make sure radiator is tip top condition, stepper motor maybe, any other ancillaries that need replacing
Regards
Iain
>> Edited by chassis 33 on Thursday 21st July 15:11
with that sort of spec your looking at more like 270BHP.
a standard chim kicks out 160-180 at the wheels with standard head and pistons.
Our engine runs standard heads and standard 20k mile old pistons with new rings.. the only mod is a balance and a cam. (so )
so there i've just saved you 1500 quid G
a standard chim kicks out 160-180 at the wheels with standard head and pistons.
Our engine runs standard heads and standard 20k mile old pistons with new rings.. the only mod is a balance and a cam. (so
) so there i've just saved you 1500 quid
G trackcar said:
It does seem rather over-specced for a group a car .. who's building it for you and have you given them the proper series regs?
From the spec it sounds like you might be future-proofing for an assault on group b next year ...
Couldn't possibly comment.
"Do it once, do it properly"...I'm sure i've heard that before
Regards
Iain
Graham said:
The msa like a minimum of about 15 for a championship and want to see 20 before they will grant a new championship.
For a series like the tvrcc challenge its pure economics with the organising club. BARC in this case.
From what I've seen of cars in build by next season could be back up to the 20 odd cars we had in the height of the tasmin only series. We just need to get a reasonable number of cars out to the next few rounds, and are doing everything possible to sort that.
as for the registration fee, i've had 3 times that back in prize money sofar
G
Im sure you've said that before now
What was the problem with the rear dampers Graham?
I've read all this with interest - particularly the suggestions about limiting the amount you can spend on a car. The bottom line is that however you do it, motor racing is expensive. Hideously expensive. Doing a fair bit yourself reduces it to bloody expensive - but it will never be cheap.
I've read all this with interest - particularly the suggestions about limiting the amount you can spend on a car. The bottom line is that however you do it, motor racing is expensive. Hideously expensive. Doing a fair bit yourself reduces it to bloody expensive - but it will never be cheap.
griff2be said:
What was the problem with the rear dampers Graham?
I've read all this with interest - particularly the suggestions about limiting the amount you can spend on a car. The bottom line is that however you do it, motor racing is expensive. Hideously expensive. Doing a fair bit yourself reduces it to bloody expensive - but it will never be cheap.
ain't that the truth
griff2be said:
What was the problem with the rear dampers Graham?
I've read all this with interest - particularly the suggestions about limiting the amount you can spend on a car. The bottom line is that however you do it, motor racing is expensive. Hideously expensive. Doing a fair bit yourself reduces it to bloody expensive - but it will never be cheap.
Andy, good to hear from you. Yes motor racing is expensive, and no you cant escape that, I've lived surrounded by it most a good chunk of my life, from clubman paddocks to Williams F1. Maybe it's me coming to terms with the practical implications of the cost thats made me so vocal about things today...in the past its always been someone elses money
The Penske dampers technically aren't allowed in the TVRCC regs and a few folks has started grumbling. The bushes/spacers that cam with the new ones only had 8mm dia holes in, which left Ian to drive into Louth to find some new bolts mid Saturday afternoon, end ended up with 8mm bolts made from monkey metal, and were more like U-bolts by the end of the race apparently.
Regards
Iain
Graham said:
were more like U-bolts by the end of the race apparently.
Yeah The spacers are now drilled and the dampers back on the car with the correct bolts. The temp bolts were a little bent... I reckon we lost 10mm ride height at the rear during the race
G
So you have replaced the Penskes with something less adjustable?
U shaped bolts are for girls!! I used to snap the top shocker bolts quite often. Got a 6th place with a snapped bolt come to think of it.....
griff2be said:
So you have replaced the Penskes with something less adjustable?
Yes, the driver doesnt know how to deal with all the choice and it's just another thing to moan about having all that adjustment.
The mechanics wouldn't have a clue what to do with them if he did want the Penskes adjusting, the single twiddly bit is much easier for us to understand!
Regards
Iain
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