Tuscan Race Car Costs

[hobo]

How much would one of these cost to buy/build so as to compete in the TVRCC Challenge ?

[stevenhall4]

Ask Graham as he races one in the TVRCC.I would guess about 5 grand plus shock absorbers

[trackcar]

Why not build a chim / S / griff and stay true to the original concept of budget entry level racing?

There's already a place for tuscans to race ..

In answer to your question though, a lot. you cn probably pick up a car without engine for relatively little these days, say 8-10k. then you've got to buy an engine/ecu and install it .. say another 5k. then buy a set of single adjustable dampers, another 1-1.5k. you could probably be on the grid for 20k if you did some work yourself.

I think the series though didn't want to be seen as a refuge for old tuscan race cars, so how much enthusiasm there'd be I have no idea ... it's be great to have you in as another driver, but I'd be much happier personally to see you in a cheap chim fighting for class honours than a tuscan ..

*the opinions of Joo may not necesarily be those of the TVRCC massive

[hobo]

What if I already had access to a Griff 500 ?

I know little about cars to be honest & could no way build one, but how much would I need to spend to get it upto race standard ?

And then how much would it cost to keep it upto scratch throughout the season ?

[stevenhall4]

You need to speak to R.T.Racing.Richard is a very genuine chap who will have you on the grid for next to nothing.He has a variety of race TVR racecars for sale.See him at the BBWF this weekend.

[Graham]

I paid


11k For the car
£600 for the engine ( 4ltr ex chim motor)
£300 for the bell housing
£1.3k for the dry sump ( you could use a wet sump)
£300 bits of plumbing.
£600 tyres.
£900 tvrcc spec dampers.


So if your doing it your self you can easily do get on the grid for 15k.

IF you do it with a chim griff you could use the engine it already has so you'll need


roll cage
seat
dampers
wheels/tyres
fire ex
elec cut out
etc etc

so I'd say 5k plus the car.


If you wanted to get out there in an existing class A Tasmin I reckon you should find somthing that just needs cleaning for under 5k ready to go.


p.s. I'd love to see another tuscan out there together with some more chims and griffs.

The TVRCC spec Tuscan is a very different car to the full on AJP 450bhp car, which is a lot more expensive !!!!

G

[chassis 33]

Graham said:

IF you do it with a chim griff you could use the engine it already has so you'll need roll cage seat dampers wheels/tyres fire ex elec cut out etc etc so I'd say 5k plus the car.

My budget as of 10days ago for prepping a '95 chim to race in 2006 is

Cage £1,410.00
Fire Extinguisher £200.00
Race Seat £128.85
Seat Mounts £23.08
Chassis/Seat strentheners £70.44
Harness £117.70
Race Numbers £8.07
Battery Cut Out £22.73
Wheels (OEM) £0.00
Tyres eg Yoko A032 £495.75
Shocks & springs £486.45
Oil Cooler £161.27
Brakes £350.00
Oil & Filters (season)£109.99
Bushes £0.00
Engine Rebuild £3,624.00
QR Fasteners £30.00

Total £7238.33

However, several conversations have made me decide that £3.6k for an engine is excessive for my first season of racing so will probably just get a refresh and uprated cam all in for about £1k, or buy another engine and if my first one goes pop swap the new one in, we'll see.

The seat mount strengtheners are out, will do that from steel stock i have knocking about the garage, however i've gone for an electrically triggered fire extinguisher instead of a mechanically triggered one because it will be a neater installation in what will still be a road car, so the two cancel eachother out. I've also got a couple of other bits but 'Tweeks gave me a 10% discount for buying a wallet full of stuff so thats pretty much come out evens too.

The sticking point for me is the cage, unless i find a sponsor it's going to be a couple of months before i can afford to get one put in, and until then i cant really get the suspension set up as it will be a wasted exercise without the true weight of the car.

Regards
Iain

[griff2be]

trackcar said:

There's already a place for tuscans to race .. In answer to your question though, a lot. you cn probably pick up a car without engine for relatively little these days, say 8-10k. then you've got to buy an engine/ecu and install it .. say another 5k. then buy a set of single adjustable dampers, another 1-1.5k. you could probably be on the grid for 20k if you did some work yourself. I think the series though didn't want to be seen as a refuge for old tuscan race cars, so how much enthusiasm there'd be I have no idea ... it's

We have 2 separate TVR race series which are currently struggling for numbers and therefore are being bundled with other marques in order to race at all. I don't think the TVRCC series has the luxury of being able to say what it doesn't want to be seen with, any more than we in the Tuscans can be picky about who we race with at the moment.

I also think £8-10k is optimistic. A good one sold recently for >£15k minus engine. There may be the odd dog about to be had as a bargain, but otherwise I think you'll be paying quite a lot more for a car that has all the gear and has raced recently. If you buy a race AJP from the factory then you have no phaffing about, the engine drops straight in. I suspect if Graham had that option at the time he may have gone down that route. What he saved in cost of the engine he spent on custom exhausts, engine mounts etc..

If James Tucker does introduce a V8 series to Britcar next year then I suspect you will see Tuscan prices rising. V8s only, half hour races - the Tuscan may end up as the tool of choice for an outright win.... 2006 could be very interesting indeed....

[Racing Rod]

griff2be said:

I also think £8-10k is optimistic. A good one sold recently for £15k minus engine. If James Tucker does introduce a V8 series to Britcar next year then I suspect you will see Tuscan prices rising. V8s only, half hour races - the Tuscan may end up as the tool of choice for an outright win.... 2006 could be very interesting indeed....

Very optimistic indeed, for which ever way you look at it, a car which only needs an engine (rolling chassis) before you race it is going to cost you at least £15k.

You can buy one like the one I've just sold, ready to go, bar the engine, for £15k plus, or buy a pig for £7/8k and spend the same again putting it right if your lucky, no prizes for guessing which way you should go !!!

The new Britcar V8 series for 2006 with it's proposed 30/45 min races, possibly two per race weekend, (value) will be a perfect place for the Tuscans as they can return to the original Dunlop race slicks and run the way they were designed to, FLAT OUT

I'm looking at buying another Tuscan, not a normal one, but one that has a 550bhp 6.9 chevy unit fitted together with all the trimmings and if it comes for sensible money, we will race it in the new series, so my message to all the Tuscan lads is,

"You've already lost, you just don't know it yet" 550bhp........6.9 chevy and the "Master" at the wheel

[Graham]

My Preference would be for a single mixed tvr race encompasing any available race ready TVR, than see the TVR's racing in one and two's in different series.


I believe this is also what the fans would prefer, one big race to support rather than 2 small ones.

I know the Tuscans have been running as guests in other championships and we started inviting other racers on the billing to join us for an extra race to fill up the grid.

There seems to be some snobbery/inverted snobery from some areas when it comes to tuscan challenge cars and the rest of us.

I always wanted a tuscan, I even tried to find the budget 2 years ago for a crack at it. So I bought one and with a basic 4ltr RV8 it actually fits in quite well with the likes of tuned 5ltr griffs. Although we are struggling abit on road tyres at the moment

I've been there and done that with the road car conversion and always fancied a Tuscan, so when one came up a deal was done. I did originally look to convert a Chimaera but the right one never came up at the time.

Dropping an RV8 in a tuscan is a bit of a phaff but actually i believe easier than fitting an ajp road engine ???

Mine is set up so i could pull the rv8 and put an ajp race engine straight in.

Britcar v8's does look interesting but could be costly, I reckon on 10k to put a race ajp in the car.

7k for the motor then bell housing, clutch slave, injection kit, and ecu.

I have starter, engine mounts and exhaust plus cooling pipes etc, and the ajp wiring is still there...

Although I could probably go ls6 for the same money for the moment the RV8 is staying maybe with some new heads..


One of the reasons I went for the Tuscan was that i felt I could race it in more places than a heavily modified tasmin. SO the tasmin stayed class A and the Tuscan joined it


SO Ramble over Andy you coming to join us at croft for the D/Header and show us what a real tuscan can do. im sure that new truck of yours needs a run out

[ceejay]

griff2be said:

We have 2 separate TVR race series which are currently struggling for numbers and therefore are being bundled with other marques in order to race at all. I don't think the TVRCC series has the luxury of being able to say what it doesn't want to be seen with, any more than we in the Tuscans can be picky about who we race with at the moment.

I think this is a very difficult one to solve, combining the two series would cause problems. As an owner of a Tasmin I wouldn't be too happy. I got into the TVRCC series because Steve Lewis planted a seed in my head about racing a 'road going TVR', this is what the TVRCC series was supposed to be about. Budget racing for production TVR sports cars. My car has been built accordingly. The new class structure opened the series up to all types and I think is all the better for it.

My problem with the Tuscans would be that they are out and out race cars from the ground up. A complete philisophy change for the series. If you put a 5ltr griff engine in it you would have such an advantage that quite frankly none of the other models could compete. If that happened, honestly I'd look elsewhere to race. I could see many drivers of A and B cars getting disillusioned. They would probably end up buying a Tuscan to compete at the front. Suddenly all you would have is a new Tuscan series but no road going TVRs. A Tuscan only series has failed already, I think it would do so again but this time it could kill off amateur TVR series racing completely.

This year the guys have run with the Mx5's, some beemers and the Southern Saloons with comparable lap times to class A and B cars. The racing is close and I'd rather continue with that than run with a bunch of Tuscans. As a driver I want to see close, competitive racing and more cars to play with. This is good for the fans also. What I don't want to see is 6 Tuscans having their own race miles out front, 6 cars in class B mixing it, then a few class A cars at the back. Sure we'd have maybe 20 car TVR grids next season, but would the racing be any better for it?

Ceejay

All IMHO

>> Edited by ceejay on Thursday 4th August 09:28

>> Edited by ceejay on Thursday 4th August 09:29

[chassis 33]

...so erm...when was the last time a road legal car lines up on a TVRCC Challenge grid? The closest i've seen in recent times is the 3000M. There's very few cars out there that resemble anything like the original spec of the car they're meant to be.

Chuffing well lets play with the Tuscans and anyone else for that matter, when i have kids and grandkids, i'll be able to tell stories of how i lined up on the grid with the Tuscans, beat a blue and pink one off the line (then again doesnt everyone ) had a epic battle until the blue and pink one spun, then got passed by a Griff 500 and another Tuscan...as they came round to lap me...

Back in reality...if the Tuscans are x seconds a lap quicker than you then it simply means you dont have to worry about tripping over them and can have some fun playing with comparable cars to yours. Very few of us are in this to make money, certainly in the case of the drivers, when i get on track later this year, and next year in the Chimaera, i want to get out of the car with a face comparable to the Jokers or the Cheshire cats.

How abouts we all stop being so precious over our series and think about the real reason we want to be on track. The greater variety of TVR's the greater the synergy, sucess breeds sucess etc etc and hopefully we can be back to full grids of cars, which in the end is what we all want to see, the spectacle of motor-racing.

C'mon, lets have a beer and work out between us all how we can get things back on...er...track. (sorry awful pun)

Regards
Iain

[Graham]

[quote=chassis 33] i'll be able to tell stories of how i lined up on the grid with the Tuscans, beat a blue and pink one off the line (then again doesnt everyone )

Oi I'll have you know i had a half decent start at Donny


0-85 in 7 seconds... from the logger

the real problem is that the griff is ballistic, almost having the thopedo !!!! ther is some torque in that motor and marc can hook it up.

[ceejay]

chassis 33 said:

...so erm...when was the last time a road legal car lines up on a TVRCC Challenge grid? The closest i've seen in recent times is the 3000M. There's very few cars out there that resemble anything like the original spec of the car they're meant to be. Chuffing well lets play with the Tuscans and anyone else for that matter, when i have kids and grandkids, i'll be able to tell stories of how i lined up on the grid with the Tuscans, beat a blue and pink one off the line (then again doesnt everyone ) had a epic battle until the blue and pink one spun, then got passed by a Griff 500 and another Tuscan...as they came round to lap me... Back in reality...if the Tuscans are x seconds a lap quicker than you then it simply means you dont have to worry about tripping over them and can have some fun playing with comparable cars to yours. Very few of us are in this to make money, certainly in the case of the drivers, when i get on track later this year, and next year in the Chimaera, i want to get out of the car with a face comparable to the Jokers or the Cheshire cats. How abouts we all stop being so precious over our series and think about the real reason we want to be on track. The greater variety of TVR's the greater the synergy, sucess breeds sucess etc etc and hopefully we can be back to full grids of cars, which in the end is what we all want to see, the spectacle of motor-racing. C'mon, lets have a beer and work out between us all how we can get things back on...er...track. (sorry awful pun) Regards Iain

Iain, the point was that the grid is made up of cars that were designed for the road. They could be road legal production cars but most are not. They still have huge limitations due to their original design. I'm considering running a road legal racer next year for many reasons inc value for money. Certainly don't think any racer makes money. Best quote is 'how to make a small fortune from a large one'

Reality check.

Facts are the tuscan is a purpose designed race car. It doesn't weigh 1040kg, the bodywork is a few mm thick, not 1 inch thick like the road cars are in places. It has purpose built suspension optimised for the track, we have modded suspension so it won't break. A tuscan can run on race slicks with big wheels, the biggest tyre you can squeeze under a Taz is 225 width. The Tuscans have brakes nearly as big as my wheels. If someone can come up with some regs whereby we can all compete together on a level playing field then great. I just don't want a 12 lap race being that for Tuscans and probably 8-9 for the rest of us. A situation where 'if you're not in a tuscan you can't win' doesn't appeal. I will race elsewhere.

And don't think I'm being precious cos I'm not. Racing is errrrr racing which means more cars of similar performance eeerrrrr racing each other for a win, and I don't give a stuff if they are TVRs, Max5s or MG Maestros. Just suppose that most other guys decide to buy a Tuscan for next year. You turn up at race 1 in your Chim and twenty Tuscans. Who you gonna race with? Was your money well spent?

You buy and build your car according to the rules, stability of these is key. To radically change them when cars are in build for next season is risky. If someone had told me Tuscans would be in the series in large numbers this year or next year I wouldn't have built my car the way I have cos there is now way we can compete. I suspect this is true for many others.

Tell you what, I'll buy a late 90's F1 car, stick a TVR badge on it and race that against the Tuscans. I'm sure they would welcome me with open arms. If we go down this route that's effectively what you're doing. I'll get 12 laps they'll get..............maybe 7.

Ceejay

[Racing Rod]

Both opposed points of view have merit, but on balance one should always protect the interests of those that have supported the series from day one and if a clear majority would prefer to stick to the original principals that made the TVRCC Challenge what it is, then so be it, Let the Tuscans find another home.

I am quite sure that they should be in the new for 2006 Britcar V8 series, they can run in that the way they were designed to, and we can then see how they get on against other V8 monsters. As for those racing in the TVRCC that want to race Tuscans, go and do it and leave the chaps who want to maintain the TVRCC series for production cars to do just that, don't settle for a watered down Tuscan experience, buy a car, prepare it and race it as they should be raced, Balls out, and totally ballistic in the company of other monster V8's like the Holden’s, the Marcos, V8 BM's, Ultima's, Corvettes and Christ knows what else in the new Britcar series, makes sense to me !!!!

[Graham]

ceejay said:

If someone can come up with some regs whereby we can all compete together on a level playing field then great. Ceejay

Erm we have with classes A & B. TO get into class B a tuscan needs much less bhp than the other cars in the class due to its low weight and the penalty it gets for the brakes.

From what we have seen so far that equalises things quite well, with you needing to use every inch of the tuscan handlign advantage to keep up with the extra torque from a griff with a 5ltr plus motor.

We also have the invitation class for out an out unlimited specials like the thorpedo. the ajp challenge cars should be on that sort of pace.

That gives us 3 reasonable classes that should encourage competition in each class.

cheep motors in class A ( available from 3k)
modded road cars and de tuned tuscans in B
Specials and TC cars in q.

I dont see that much different from what we have now just more volume.

If class A cars getting too few laps was a problem we would go to time plus 1 lap rather than a fixed number of laps per race.


I suppose to solve the conundrum we really need a TC spec car to come out and play to see what happens Andy


As to the Tuscan being a purpose designed race car ITs basically a griff chassis with rose joints and a few extra chassis rails ( usually where you need to put a hand/spanner/alternator) The short wishbone's mean to make the suspension work you have to restrict movment by using very hard springs , so its about where you endup if you prep a griff chim just a bit lighter due to the body

The series was originally just lightly modified tasmins, then it was changed to Any TVR with bhp/ton plus invitation.

As for reg stability other than tidying up the wording I dont expect to change anything for next season and have only had one request for a slight tweek.

G

G

[chassis 33]

ceejay said:

I'll get 12 laps they'll get..............maybe 7. Ceejay

That i do agree with, how about the race lasts for 20mins not 12 laps, just a thought.

I know road based cars have their imitations, and even a poorly set up Tuscan could out perform a class B car in AJP spec.

It's not a decision for me to make, i can only have my opinions, and often my heart rules my head which is why i'm in a TVR.

If I'd wanted track time in a season i would of done the Uniroyal cup or 2CV's, both of which have a 24 (or 25) hour race to boot.

If i'd wanted to be in a full field then it would of been the MX-5's

If i'd wanted the best handling scare the crap out of you racing i'd of bought a Caterham Roadsport.

But im a TVR fan so i want to race a TVR and although i have my opinions and probably state them too much, anything that gives a full grid of comparable cars, even if its in several classes, I'm up for.

Regards
Iain

BTW if we were to get F1 cars and badge them TVR's i wouldn't go for a late 90's one, my heart would say get something a little more novel, mid/late 70's maybe

[ceejay]

Trouble is you could put an AJP8 car into B or a big rover lump (5litre plus), run an air restrictor for bhp to class limit but you still have looooaaads of torque everywhere and max power from about 3000rpm. If you were building a car to win, that's what you would choose, right?

I reckon if Tuscans were restricted to 4litre or 4.3 litre RV8's there wouldn't be any problem. These run very similar pace to the Griff 500's. Suddenly we have a competitive series which is great to watch. If you use that as a benchmark then you could look at loads of other ways of making the older cars more competitive cos this year they seem to be about 2 secs off the pace. Just imagine wedges, griffs, tuscans, chims,Ms,S series all competing on 'equal' terms. The complete opposite of 'you have to buy a tuscan to win' instead 'if you're a decent driver you can win in anything'. That I'd love to see.


Ceejay

[chassis 33]

A stock high ratio back axle to take into account the torque and limits the acceleration?

Theoretically then the wheels could spin out to 300mph or what ever, but you'd need the Boneville salt flats and to take a packed lunch to get to that speed?

Regards
Iain

>> Edited by chassis 33 on Thursday 4th August 13:41

[Graham]

ceejay said:

If you use that as a benchmark then you could look at loads of other ways of making the older cars more competitive cos this year they seem to be about 2 secs off the pace. Just imagine wedges, griffs, tuscans, chims,Ms,S series all competing on 'equal' terms. Ceejay

It varies a lot track by track. At Knock Hill there was a Griff a tuscan and a turbo taz running flat out together.

I'd expected the taz to run better than it did at donny.

If you check the results this season In B the griff has more wins, although i'll admit the Tuscan does have fastest lap in B at each race. It needs more torque to be competitive in traffic

what it needs is a twin turbo v6 taz to come and whup its ass



G