2022 Rallying Thread (WRC, ERC and national rally)
Discussion
Good grief, that ice is montrously inconsistent! The pace notes become a navigation tool only, rather than speed advice! Such a innocuous looking initial wall-clip sent that into over-correction and down. It's a stark reminder of the wafer-thin margins for error and sheer skill just to get to the end of a stage! Glad they're OK.
McAndy said:
Good grief, that ice is montrously inconsistent! The pace notes become a navigation tool only, rather than speed advice! Such a innocuous looking initial wall-clip sent that into over-correction and down. It's a stark reminder of the wafer-thin margins for error and sheer skill just to get to the end of a stage! Glad they're OK.
I saw somewhere that one of the issues nearly all the drivers are having is adapting to the throttle response with the new hybrids.Drumroll said:
...I don't really see much difference between the circuit rallies and some of the single venue rallies..
..You never know attending a circuit rally may get a few to venture out onto closed roads or into the forests.
There isn't any difference. To the crews and marshals they're all just a single venue event, but as you say, just better toilets ..You never know attending a circuit rally may get a few to venture out onto closed roads or into the forests.
Circuit rallies aren't a new thing either, we got third in class at Cadwell in 1994. There's just more focus with the championship.
I only compare as I know a few crews, and most of them think the MSV events are not really proper rallies as you get less variety in stage design, some of them are OK but Brands this week basically uses the entirely same roads all day, backwards and forwards, some of them are OK. That is really a spring with rally timing.
I have watched a lot of single venue rallies and you cannot compare a circuit event really, you can legitimately turn up to a circuit rally now with a racing car, racing suspension and finish, you could not do that years ago as you would destroy the thing, some single venues if you used racing tyres you would knacker them as they were broken concrete airfields with not enough grip unless you almost ran forest tyres!
They are a necessity and Palmer has found a nice way to earn money from them as the prices have steadily increased year on year as they have become established, and for crews it is nice to do rallies where you will not get damage, ease of access and servicing etc.
But a real rally fan would know what I mean, and I don't say that lightly. Plus casual fans are not suddenly going to start watching and competing much, most are there as there is nothing else to do, let's be honest this is like an NEC show or Race Retro, Palmer knows this hence the way he does what he does.
I have watched a lot of single venue rallies and you cannot compare a circuit event really, you can legitimately turn up to a circuit rally now with a racing car, racing suspension and finish, you could not do that years ago as you would destroy the thing, some single venues if you used racing tyres you would knacker them as they were broken concrete airfields with not enough grip unless you almost ran forest tyres!
They are a necessity and Palmer has found a nice way to earn money from them as the prices have steadily increased year on year as they have become established, and for crews it is nice to do rallies where you will not get damage, ease of access and servicing etc.
But a real rally fan would know what I mean, and I don't say that lightly. Plus casual fans are not suddenly going to start watching and competing much, most are there as there is nothing else to do, let's be honest this is like an NEC show or Race Retro, Palmer knows this hence the way he does what he does.
Why the need to have a go at Jonathan Palmer all the time? He is running a business he needs to make a profit at least he is allowing rallies which is more than BARC are doing.
There are some people who don't like circuit rallies, just as some people don't like forest rallies. The fact the events always have a large entry tends to say there is enough support for circuit rallies.
There are some people who don't like circuit rallies, just as some people don't like forest rallies. The fact the events always have a large entry tends to say there is enough support for circuit rallies.
Edited by Drumroll on Friday 14th January 09:34
LukeBrown66 said:
……….
……..and for crews it is nice to do rallies where you will not get damage, ease of access and servicing etc.
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Hmmm, I really must check the size of the hole in my bank account then after going off on the gravel at Donington and wiping out the front end of my car.……..and for crews it is nice to do rallies where you will not get damage, ease of access and servicing etc.
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And it seems to me that in many circuit rallies about 1/3 of the crews don’t finish.
You are entitled to your opinion but these events are not as easy as some spectators seem to think!
You can’t budget for accident damage , whatever sort of rallying s
t happens . Did Goodwood once and many many at the brilliant Pembrey , they’re ok and good value for money taking into account tyres and no road mileage for the car or service crew . At least they’re out competing and having fun ,pays ya money takes ya choice. Cost of a decent multi venue tarmac/BTRDA forest rally is crazy nowadays
t happens . Did Goodwood once and many many at the brilliant Pembrey , they’re ok and good value for money taking into account tyres and no road mileage for the car or service crew . At least they’re out competing and having fun ,pays ya money takes ya choice. Cost of a decent multi venue tarmac/BTRDA forest rally is crazy nowadays fttm said:
You can’t budget for accident damage , whatever sort of rallying st happens . Did Goodwood once and many many at the brilliant Pembrey , they’re ok and good value for money taking into account tyres and no road mileage for the car or service crew . At least they’re out competing and having fun ,pays ya money takes ya choice. Cost of a decent multi venue tarmac/BTRDA forest rally is crazy nowadays
Agreed, but the implication that the circuit rallies are easy and sanitised and just glorified sprints with no chance of damage from a spectator just rankles slightly. Perhaps he should try driving on gravel on tarmac tyres or negotiate tight tyre chicanes and very narrow gateways at speed etc etc. they are not just blats around cones.t happens . Did Goodwood once and many many at the brilliant Pembrey , they’re ok and good value for money taking into account tyres and no road mileage for the car or service crew . At least they’re out competing and having fun ,pays ya money takes ya choice. Cost of a decent multi venue tarmac/BTRDA forest rally is crazy nowadays They are challenging just different challenges to the forests, which are different challenges to the s/v airfield type events, which are different to closed roads etc. challenges, just different challenges.
LukeBrown66 said:
I only compare as I know a few crews, and most of them think the MSV events are not really proper rallies.....
I know rally crews who treat all SVs as 'not proper rallies' LukeBrown66 said:
....but Brands this week basically uses the entirely same roads all day, backwards and forwards, some of them are OK.
You could say the same about venues like Rushmoor and Abingdon.Can I ask if you've ever marshalled on one of these events?
Have you been responsible for reversing the direction of a whole stage in 15 minutes? - including merges, splits and chicanes?
Have you had to deal with land owners and negotiate use?
We, as rally organisers, are always looking for opportunities to add new venues as others are closed. We need every event we can and the circuity championship is another opportunity for competition. Why knock it, why not look at it as an opportunity and make the most of it?
Ranger 6 said:
You could say the same about venues like Rushmoor and Abingdon.
Can I ask if you've ever marshalled on one of these events?
Have you been responsible for reversing the direction of a whole stage in 15 minutes? - including merges, splits and chicanes?
Have you had to deal with land owners and negotiate use?
We, as rally organisers, are always looking for opportunities to add new venues as others are closed. We need every event we can and the circuity championship is another opportunity for competition. Why knock it, why not look at it as an opportunity and make the most of it?
A question I’ve often pondered. Is it not possible to run a single venue rally using the new closed road laws. I.e map out 10 miles of stage and run it back and forth? I think in Holland they call them short rallies. Can I ask if you've ever marshalled on one of these events?
Have you been responsible for reversing the direction of a whole stage in 15 minutes? - including merges, splits and chicanes?
Have you had to deal with land owners and negotiate use?
We, as rally organisers, are always looking for opportunities to add new venues as others are closed. We need every event we can and the circuity championship is another opportunity for competition. Why knock it, why not look at it as an opportunity and make the most of it?
Dynion Araf Uchaf said:
A question I’ve often pondered. Is it not possible to run a single venue rally using the new closed road laws. I.e map out 10 miles of stage and run it back and forth? I think in Holland they call them short rallies.
Yes it is entirely possible, all the regulations allow that. The only route consideration would be the 10% change every 2 stages (same as single venues). One downside is the amount of hanging around for crews between runs - e.g. a 8 mile stage at 30 sec intervals and a field of 120 cars would mean you are competing for about 8 mins, then waiting for an hour and a half. Plus time to let essential resident access. I'm sure some organisers will have a go. I know one team in Scotland looked at running a Rally Time Trial (effectively as you describe, but <4 miles long) on some closed roads, but gave up for a reason I don't recall.
I've been involved with / aware of quite a few closed road rallies, especially at the early planning stages. The "permission" process is a little convoluted, but in essence, the Local / Roads Authority are the main party giving permission (as well as Motorsport UK). They have to see maximum benefit (i.e. economic impact of lots of visitors) with minimum inconvenience (i.e. not p1ssing off too many residents). At least 2 potential closed road rallies have been scuppered / delayed due to significant objections from residents, despite having lots of positive impacts.
The standard model most have adopted, to maximise the attractiveness to crews and minimise the impact, is to have 3-5 short stages, spread over a large area, and run each one 2 or 3 times in the day. So there are gaps in between runs to allow residents in and out.
The "single/venue" option would work somewhere that any / all the residents are happy to be locked in/out all day. And there needs to be hotels & restaurants nearby, to monetise the positive impacts. This makes it a wee bit tricky, because the typical remote / unpopulated roads (good for stages) are not always adjacent to the visitor facilities. You'll see most closed road rallies so far are based in reasonable sized towns (Dunoon, Duns, Clacton, Ledbury, Garstang, Aberystwyth etc).
andy97 said:
Could you do something in, say, a 3 stage triangle? AM in one direction twice, PM in the opposite direction twice.
Short(ish) road mileage between stage end and starts. Escorted resident access at certain times.
Absolutely - anything is possible w.r.t. route layout. The hard but is finding a location where the residents, businesses council, competitors, support crews, volunteers etc all can buy in to the same idea. Short(ish) road mileage between stage end and starts. Escorted resident access at certain times.
Dynion Araf Uchaf said:
A question I’ve often pondered. Is it not possible to run a single venue rally using the new closed road laws. I.e map out 10 miles of stage and run it back and forth? I think in Holland they call them short rallies.
We've run a single venue that way - it was very much a wait in between runs as the service area was at one end. The marshals were kept busy as they switched roles from start to finish and the signage was interesting.I have no interest whatsoever in marshalling, and to be honest a lot of the times in the past we did our own marshalling, helping out crews, shouting back to stations to sort stuff out, hence my lack of interest in the first place. As quite a few times we were doing the job without vests.
I applaud what they do, but I have no desire to get involved myself.
Regarding circuit rallies this is all opinion based on many years gong to SV events and now many years going to MSV events, I do not like them as much, but these days they serve a purpose, crews like them as they are relatively easy (from crews I know) cars need little servicing and after a while you get to know stages. So you can be very quick.
And regarding the crew saying you got damage, you always will do in competition, especially if you are decent, people make mistakes, that was not my point.
I have no issue with palmer making money, but when you see the prices going up and up year on year for essentially the same event, it does grind a bit.
Most of the reason for disliking these events a bit is the lack of ability to really enjoy a proper SV anymore due to insurance as most know. These things are now the ony option left, sadly this is not the case elsewhere in Europe or even in ireland, but hopefully in time it may change, I doubt it for SV events as once you get insurers involved they do not change their minds.
I applaud what they do, but I have no desire to get involved myself.
Regarding circuit rallies this is all opinion based on many years gong to SV events and now many years going to MSV events, I do not like them as much, but these days they serve a purpose, crews like them as they are relatively easy (from crews I know) cars need little servicing and after a while you get to know stages. So you can be very quick.
And regarding the crew saying you got damage, you always will do in competition, especially if you are decent, people make mistakes, that was not my point.
I have no issue with palmer making money, but when you see the prices going up and up year on year for essentially the same event, it does grind a bit.
Most of the reason for disliking these events a bit is the lack of ability to really enjoy a proper SV anymore due to insurance as most know. These things are now the ony option left, sadly this is not the case elsewhere in Europe or even in ireland, but hopefully in time it may change, I doubt it for SV events as once you get insurers involved they do not change their minds.
How many more people would watch rallying with coverage that looked like this:
https://twitter.com/MSportLtd/status/1482291762542...
This is some stunning footage from MSport from the MC practice runs.
Looks like a game!
https://twitter.com/MSportLtd/status/1482291762542...
This is some stunning footage from MSport from the MC practice runs.
Looks like a game!
LukeBrown66, you are becoming rather Chunder27-like in your postings. A previous poster who complained constantly about the loss of spectating at SVs, Palmer and MSV, the restrictions on access at circuits and the direction of WRC and WRX. Also reluctant to marshal and claimed the most exciting thing in rallying for years was too far to travel even though it seemed to be an hour or so.
FWIW, near me (West Country) there were as many superfast smooth tarmac SVs as concrete ones. Most organisers made the minimum legal changes to the stage for each pair of runs for obvious reasons and some people purposefully built cars that were best on smooth tar.
The circuit rallies wouldn’t be for me as a competitor, but since I no longer am one my opinion counts for nothing on that score, good on those who put them on and allow use of the venue even if for profit
FWIW, near me (West Country) there were as many superfast smooth tarmac SVs as concrete ones. Most organisers made the minimum legal changes to the stage for each pair of runs for obvious reasons and some people purposefully built cars that were best on smooth tar.
The circuit rallies wouldn’t be for me as a competitor, but since I no longer am one my opinion counts for nothing on that score, good on those who put them on and allow use of the venue even if for profit
My opinions are simply based on many years watching, that doesn't mean a lot to some but it also means I have experienced a lot of change in the past few years, most of it forced on the sport, its competitors, organisers and fans by insurance companies!!
I may not be a huge fan of modern circuit rallies but I still attend one or two every year, and usually a few other events, I would attend more but modern rules prevent me from doing so over and above other things that treat fans with a bit more than lip service
I am not a fan of spectator "pens" but realise that is really the only option. SO open roads events are an option I hope that expand.
What I do see is a lot of footage or rallying abroad and I do see that in the UK fans are treated far worse then just about anywhere else in Europe, for reasons not inked to clubs, organisers or anything else and that is a damn shame.
I may not be a huge fan of modern circuit rallies but I still attend one or two every year, and usually a few other events, I would attend more but modern rules prevent me from doing so over and above other things that treat fans with a bit more than lip service
I am not a fan of spectator "pens" but realise that is really the only option. SO open roads events are an option I hope that expand.
What I do see is a lot of footage or rallying abroad and I do see that in the UK fans are treated far worse then just about anywhere else in Europe, for reasons not inked to clubs, organisers or anything else and that is a damn shame.
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