2022 Rallying Thread (WRC, ERC and national rally)
Discussion
Drumroll said:
Just seen the 2 Ramsey Town stages have been canceled as there are not enough marshals to cover the stage(s).
For some this will look strange as the stage was only 0.68 miles long, but being in the town centre it required more marshals than most of the other stages.
I wonder if we are now seeing the effects of "cost of living" on events? I reckon many people can't justify the expense to travel to marshal, even though most rallies are making some kind of contribution. For some this will look strange as the stage was only 0.68 miles long, but being in the town centre it required more marshals than most of the other stages.
thepawbroon said:
Drumroll said:
Just seen the 2 Ramsey Town stages have been canceled as there are not enough marshals to cover the stage(s).
For some this will look strange as the stage was only 0.68 miles long, but being in the town centre it required more marshals than most of the other stages.
I wonder if we are now seeing the effects of "cost of living" on events? I reckon many people can't justify the expense to travel to marshal, even though most rallies are making some kind of contribution. For some this will look strange as the stage was only 0.68 miles long, but being in the town centre it required more marshals than most of the other stages.
I must confess I am looking at my dates for next year, I very much doubt I will be doing the 50+ days (all forms of motorsport) I will have done this year, next year.
WRC Rally New Zealand;
Stage 1 was earlier today. Young Kalle can wrap up the title if things go his way. Ogier has returned after his unsuccessful foray into Sportscars. Paddon is entered in WRC2 (and was missed on the Shakedown TV coverage......Unbelievable)
And probably the biggest name in the event is Shane van Gisbergen in a Fabia R2 (old school R5)
Stage 1 was earlier today. Young Kalle can wrap up the title if things go his way. Ogier has returned after his unsuccessful foray into Sportscars. Paddon is entered in WRC2 (and was missed on the Shakedown TV coverage......Unbelievable)
And probably the biggest name in the event is Shane van Gisbergen in a Fabia R2 (old school R5)
Watched a fascinating interview Davide Cironi did with Biasion earlier.
In particular the Ford bits at the end of his career. Happened to mention Delecour's co driver was banging someone high up at Ford so that is why he sort of led development, plus he had been there longer, a double world champion who basically did ALL the work to get the Delta's up front was ignored largely, probably some truth in that.
Also said there were odd things like at Lancia, after the last event there was always something to test or do, it was November 93 at Ford, and Miki asked why the 94Monte Carlo cars were already under wraps in storage, they are ready came the reply, we have nothing else to add! If this was Lancia they would have been testing, trying new things, improving, not Ford.
Seemingly they just thought this car was so perfect they would walk it OK this might be sour grapes as he never really got on well at Ford, I think he expected to be treated like a God, as he probably was at Lancia, but it also shows some things up about Ford, huge firm, but never really that great and running things, he also felt Ashcroft getting ill was a really bad thing, as that was the Russo, Pianta figure at Lancia who were so influential.
In particular the Ford bits at the end of his career. Happened to mention Delecour's co driver was banging someone high up at Ford so that is why he sort of led development, plus he had been there longer, a double world champion who basically did ALL the work to get the Delta's up front was ignored largely, probably some truth in that.
Also said there were odd things like at Lancia, after the last event there was always something to test or do, it was November 93 at Ford, and Miki asked why the 94Monte Carlo cars were already under wraps in storage, they are ready came the reply, we have nothing else to add! If this was Lancia they would have been testing, trying new things, improving, not Ford.
Seemingly they just thought this car was so perfect they would walk it OK this might be sour grapes as he never really got on well at Ford, I think he expected to be treated like a God, as he probably was at Lancia, but it also shows some things up about Ford, huge firm, but never really that great and running things, he also felt Ashcroft getting ill was a really bad thing, as that was the Russo, Pianta figure at Lancia who were so influential.
It's been said before, but Ford's record in the WRC just isn't very good. A handful of titles in 50 years is nothing to write about. A tale of consistent mismanagement, and poor decisions. Yet for some reason they get a lot of love, especially here in the UK.
Even now, they're basically making up the numbers, hoping to get lucky - and take advantage of running order.
Even now, they're basically making up the numbers, hoping to get lucky - and take advantage of running order.
Are we talking about "Ford" or "M-Sport" now?
As it is my understanding Msport have only been around since the 90's, and they are the ones who get support from the popular media. A lot of people conflate the two but they aren't the same. Doesn't help that Ford Mk2's are winning rallies ATM and you get people making the comments like "the old Mk2s are still doing it!!". There is nothing vaguely old or Ford about those Ultimate spec Escorts, those things are more like hotrods than anything else!
I would have time for Msport (especially since Breen is there) but don't care about Ford.
Good battle going on up front, Breen had been leading (Yay!) but just lost the lead on that stage, now tied with Evans in second around 2 seconds off the lead. You wouldn't know it though as they don't seem to want to mention his good run. Compare that to Loeb and Loubet at the last rally... I hope he can bring it home in a podium position, he needs a good result after all the bad luck he's had.
As it is my understanding Msport have only been around since the 90's, and they are the ones who get support from the popular media. A lot of people conflate the two but they aren't the same. Doesn't help that Ford Mk2's are winning rallies ATM and you get people making the comments like "the old Mk2s are still doing it!!". There is nothing vaguely old or Ford about those Ultimate spec Escorts, those things are more like hotrods than anything else!
I would have time for Msport (especially since Breen is there) but don't care about Ford.
Good battle going on up front, Breen had been leading (Yay!) but just lost the lead on that stage, now tied with Evans in second around 2 seconds off the lead. You wouldn't know it though as they don't seem to want to mention his good run. Compare that to Loeb and Loubet at the last rally... I hope he can bring it home in a podium position, he needs a good result after all the bad luck he's had.
Miki was there at the tail end of Boreham, he was employed I think by Ashcroft for a good fee, and then Peter became ill so the team reverted back to revolving around Delecour who I never rated frankly. Not that it matters.
You employ a guy who basically made the Delta what it was, won two titles, should have been three and then made him develop an Escort while driving a taxi and then when he suggested things ignored him in favour of the bloke who was quicker in the taxi sometimes coz his co driver was banging someone high up at Ford!
He might be bitter of course, but I do think he has some valid points, this guy was proven after all and a fabulous development driver, which is what Ford were buying!!
Msport took over in about 95/6, Malc was running his own team anyway, and I think Ford were looking at ditching Boreham and he became the best bet, and proved so, even Miki says Malcom was a great test driver and made the car better.
I think the big thing now is money, they dont get much from Ford anymore, so cant just spend it all, so have to take average drivers, young driver and stuff like Greensmith, and cast offs like Breen who has again proven he is not worthy of a top drive.
You employ a guy who basically made the Delta what it was, won two titles, should have been three and then made him develop an Escort while driving a taxi and then when he suggested things ignored him in favour of the bloke who was quicker in the taxi sometimes coz his co driver was banging someone high up at Ford!
He might be bitter of course, but I do think he has some valid points, this guy was proven after all and a fabulous development driver, which is what Ford were buying!!
Msport took over in about 95/6, Malc was running his own team anyway, and I think Ford were looking at ditching Boreham and he became the best bet, and proved so, even Miki says Malcom was a great test driver and made the car better.
I think the big thing now is money, they dont get much from Ford anymore, so cant just spend it all, so have to take average drivers, young driver and stuff like Greensmith, and cast offs like Breen who has again proven he is not worthy of a top drive.
LukeBrown66 said:
Miki was there at the tail end of Boreham, he was employed I think by Ashcroft for a good fee, and then Peter became ill so the team reverted back to revolving around Delecour who I never rated frankly. Not that it matters.
You employ a guy who basically made the Delta what it was, won two titles, should have been three and then made him develop an Escort while driving a taxi and then when he suggested things ignored him in favour of the bloke who was quicker in the taxi sometimes coz his co driver was banging someone high up at Ford!
He might be bitter of course, but I do think he has some valid points, this guy was proven after all and a fabulous development driver, which is what Ford were buying!!
Msport took over in about 95/6, Malc was running his own team anyway, and I think Ford were looking at ditching Boreham and he became the best bet, and proved so, even Miki says Malcom was a great test driver and made the car better.
I think the big thing now is money, they dont get much from Ford anymore, so cant just spend it all, so have to take average drivers, young driver and stuff like Greensmith, and cast offs like Breen who has again proven he is not worthy of a top drive.
I also watched that youtube video and it was indeed interesting. I never really rated Biasion at the time and his version of events in 87 certainly put a different perspective on things. I also like the fact that he still meets up with his old rally mates quite regularly.You employ a guy who basically made the Delta what it was, won two titles, should have been three and then made him develop an Escort while driving a taxi and then when he suggested things ignored him in favour of the bloke who was quicker in the taxi sometimes coz his co driver was banging someone high up at Ford!
He might be bitter of course, but I do think he has some valid points, this guy was proven after all and a fabulous development driver, which is what Ford were buying!!
Msport took over in about 95/6, Malc was running his own team anyway, and I think Ford were looking at ditching Boreham and he became the best bet, and proved so, even Miki says Malcom was a great test driver and made the car better.
I think the big thing now is money, they dont get much from Ford anymore, so cant just spend it all, so have to take average drivers, young driver and stuff like Greensmith, and cast offs like Breen who has again proven he is not worthy of a top drive.
I guess he must have been talking about Anne Pauwels and the Ford management ( well not all of it ) Be interesting to know who the recipient was, I have my theories..
As for Breen, yep he's binned it again ( on Mcrae's corner). Something isn't working for him at Ford. He was quite a consistent driver at Citroen and particularly at Hyundai over the last years, but that seems to have gone to pot. I've never considered him absolutely top class, but a decent number 2.It'll be interesting to see if he stays on for year 2.
confucuis said:
Are we talking about "Ford" or "M-Sport" now?
As it is my understanding Msport have only been around since the 90's, and they are the ones who get support from the popular media. A lot of people conflate the two but they aren't the same. Doesn't help that Ford Mk2's are winning rallies ATM and you get people making the comments like "the old Mk2s are still doing it!!". There is nothing vaguely old or Ford about those Ultimate spec Escorts, those things are more like hotrods than anything else!
I would have time for Msport (especially since Breen is there) but don't care about Ford.
Good battle going on up front, Breen had been leading (Yay!) but just lost the lead on that stage, now tied with Evans in second around 2 seconds off the lead. You wouldn't know it though as they don't seem to want to mention his good run. Compare that to Loeb and Loubet at the last rally... I hope he can bring it home in a podium position, he needs a good result after all the bad luck he's had.
I'm talking about the manufacturer - Ford. Another example. Pulled out at the end of the 70s to build a new car, which was the delayed and delayed Escort R1700T, and then binned off, then the late entry to GpB with the RS200....In that time a Privateer car won the WRC in 1981 in the hands of Vatanen/ Richards....As it is my understanding Msport have only been around since the 90's, and they are the ones who get support from the popular media. A lot of people conflate the two but they aren't the same. Doesn't help that Ford Mk2's are winning rallies ATM and you get people making the comments like "the old Mk2s are still doing it!!". There is nothing vaguely old or Ford about those Ultimate spec Escorts, those things are more like hotrods than anything else!
I would have time for Msport (especially since Breen is there) but don't care about Ford.
Good battle going on up front, Breen had been leading (Yay!) but just lost the lead on that stage, now tied with Evans in second around 2 seconds off the lead. You wouldn't know it though as they don't seem to want to mention his good run. Compare that to Loeb and Loubet at the last rally... I hope he can bring it home in a podium position, he needs a good result after all the bad luck he's had.
M-Sport got the Ford contract at the end of 1996; before that they were known as MWMotorsport and prepared cars all over the place - and were successful.
They can only work with what they're given, which is seemingly not a lot. Their issues are lack of budget, which is down to Ford.
I think it's quite easy to compare Biasion's complaint that 'the new guy is getting preferential treatment' meaning Delacour, to Delacour doing exactly the same with Gilles Panizzi a few years later. Not sure that Herve was accused of banging any one though 
These guys are so competitive that sometimes they just can't accept someone is faster
Delacour possibly would have taken the title for Ford in 94 but for the road accident
These guys are so competitive that sometimes they just can't accept someone is faster
Delacour possibly would have taken the title for Ford in 94 but for the road accident
Edited by LastPoster on Friday 30th September 10:05
I think the main thing Miki was talking about was the lack of interest from Ford, the almost arrogance (which with respect you might think was a far more Italian tendency) to take on board the ideas and experience of the man who basically built, tested, developed and won titles in the best GpA car of the early era.
But yes ego comes into, Miki never did much at Ford, Delecour was often quicker, even on gravel, but he was already there, and was already loved ion the team for his performances, so Miki had to expect some sort of resistance initially. Either way a great insight, but also one very much founded on being an Italian in an Italian team where you basically were taken on as a kid!
But yes ego comes into, Miki never did much at Ford, Delecour was often quicker, even on gravel, but he was already there, and was already loved ion the team for his performances, so Miki had to expect some sort of resistance initially. Either way a great insight, but also one very much founded on being an Italian in an Italian team where you basically were taken on as a kid!
LukeBrown66 said:
Watched a fascinating interview Davide Cironi did with Biasion earlier.
In particular the Ford bits at the end of his career. Happened to mention Delecour's co driver was banging someone high up at Ford so that is why he sort of led development, plus he had been there longer, a double world champion who basically did ALL the work to get the Delta's up front was ignored largely, probably some truth in that.
Also said there were odd things like at Lancia, after the last event there was always something to test or do, it was November 93 at Ford, and Miki asked why the 94Monte Carlo cars were already under wraps in storage, they are ready came the reply, we have nothing else to add! If this was Lancia they would have been testing, trying new things, improving, not Ford.
Seemingly they just thought this car was so perfect they would walk it OK this might be sour grapes as he never really got on well at Ford, I think he expected to be treated like a God, as he probably was at Lancia, but it also shows some things up about Ford, huge firm, but never really that great and running things, he also felt Ashcroft getting ill was a really bad thing, as that was the Russo, Pianta figure at Lancia who were so influential.
Link pleaseIn particular the Ford bits at the end of his career. Happened to mention Delecour's co driver was banging someone high up at Ford so that is why he sort of led development, plus he had been there longer, a double world champion who basically did ALL the work to get the Delta's up front was ignored largely, probably some truth in that.
Also said there were odd things like at Lancia, after the last event there was always something to test or do, it was November 93 at Ford, and Miki asked why the 94Monte Carlo cars were already under wraps in storage, they are ready came the reply, we have nothing else to add! If this was Lancia they would have been testing, trying new things, improving, not Ford.
Seemingly they just thought this car was so perfect they would walk it OK this might be sour grapes as he never really got on well at Ford, I think he expected to be treated like a God, as he probably was at Lancia, but it also shows some things up about Ford, huge firm, but never really that great and running things, he also felt Ashcroft getting ill was a really bad thing, as that was the Russo, Pianta figure at Lancia who were so influential.
Dynion Araf Uchaf said:
As for Breen, yep he's binned it again ( on Mcrae's corner). Something isn't working for him at Ford. He was quite a consistent driver at Citroen and particularly at Hyundai over the last years, but that seems to have gone to pot. I've never considered him absolutely top class, but a decent number 2.It'll be interesting to see if he stays on for year 2.
I feel like it's a product of the environment. They expect him to compete at the top in a car that is perhaps not quite at that level and lay on passive aggressive criticism when mistakes are made.I appreciate they are in different positions within their teams, but you can compare it to someone like Katsuta in the Toyota (or perhaps even Evans). Clearly he's supported by the team and he's able to drive his rally and as a result got a fantastic run on solid finishes. I don't see any reason why Breen can't do that too, but further up the finishing order. It feels like the whole Ford team are treading on eggshells (except Seb, because he's almost immune from criticism being such a legend)
LukeBrown66 said:
much obliged and interesting to read your thoughts on it Luke. Thank youboholoblanka said:
much obliged and interesting to read your thoughts on it Luke. Thank you
But this relates to things 30 years ago. So much has changed in that time. Ford don't actually run a team, that has been taken up by Malcolm Wilson. Testing is being done on most things almost constantly. Malcolm has got both his own forest and test track he uses. But there is a limited budget, so somethings that may improve the car are not quickly implemented because there isn't the money to do it.I am aware, as are most people that this was 30 years ago, Biasion does not drive anymore!
Most rally teams these days even back then were not run direct from a factory, they were run by Prodive, or Ralliant or Abarth or Jolly Club, TTE
I think Peugeot may have done, not sure about Hyundai, they are run in Germany I think. Not direct from South Korea.
Yes funding might come direct, but Toyota Gazoo was setup by Tommi, from Finland then Estonia, it is not run by Japan and Ford was really a direct works team run don the road at Boreham.
Most rally teams these days even back then were not run direct from a factory, they were run by Prodive, or Ralliant or Abarth or Jolly Club, TTE
I think Peugeot may have done, not sure about Hyundai, they are run in Germany I think. Not direct from South Korea.
Yes funding might come direct, but Toyota Gazoo was setup by Tommi, from Finland then Estonia, it is not run by Japan and Ford was really a direct works team run don the road at Boreham.
I think Ford were the last to be that Factory based team model at that point. It seemed to came back into favour with Peugeot, then Citroen and then VW.
Back to Biasion, whilst undoubtedly good, I don't think he was ever regarded as being as quick as the Finns of the same era at Lancia (Alen/Kankunnen)
Back to Biasion, whilst undoubtedly good, I don't think he was ever regarded as being as quick as the Finns of the same era at Lancia (Alen/Kankunnen)
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