Bored of trackdays. What CHEAP motorsport options are there?
Discussion
HustleRussell said:
£169 track days on a Saturday or Sunday during the racing season?
andy97 said:
Circuit hire charges on weekdays are far cheaper than on weekends in the main racing season.
The average track day has, what 100 people taking part? The average CSCC meeting has 150 per day and in the example given at Rockingham still lost money.
Good point chaps. I'm a retired old fart so midweek track days make sense to me and my cohorts The average track day has, what 100 people taking part? The average CSCC meeting has 150 per day and in the example given at Rockingham still lost money.
But your observation has stimulated thinking outside the box. Many racers use circuits during weekdays at amateur and professional levels (including BTCC drivers at track days). Organisers, marshals, recovery crew, etc are all in attendance.
So why not hold some low-key budget race meetings during weekdays as well? If more time off from work is a problem, go racing rather than testing
bigothunter said:
HustleRussell said:
£169 track days on a Saturday or Sunday during the racing season?
andy97 said:
Circuit hire charges on weekdays are far cheaper than on weekends in the main racing season.
The average track day has, what 100 people taking part? The average CSCC meeting has 150 per day and in the example given at Rockingham still lost money.
Good point chaps. I'm a retired old fart so midweek track days make sense to me and my cohorts The average track day has, what 100 people taking part? The average CSCC meeting has 150 per day and in the example given at Rockingham still lost money.
But your observation has stimulated thinking outside the box. Many racers use circuits during weekdays at amateur and professional levels (including BTCC drivers at track days). Organisers, marshals, recovery crew, etc are all in attendance.
So why not hold some low-key budget race meetings during weekdays as well? If more time off from work is a problem, go racing rather than testing
Also- critically- the whole event is enabled by the kind work of volunteer marshals who are required in much greater numbers for racing than for trackdays. The vast majority of them will be working for a living.
Race control, scrutineers, administration, medical and first aid etc also see above.
There will be next to no footfall on site from spectators as they are also working for a living.
Turnout across the board would be negligible and huge losses inevitable.
HustleRussell said:
People who are racing on a budget work for a living whereas the very wealthy often don't.
But they still manage to go testing mid week.HustleRussell said:
Also- critically- the whole event is enabled by the kind work of volunteer marshals who are required in much greater numbers for racing than for trackdays. The vast majority of them will be working for a living.
Even though track day marshals are paid which elevates track day costs.HustleRussell said:
Race control, scrutineers, administration, medical and first aid etc also see above.
Track days need less but still significant number of paid support staff.HustleRussell said:
There will be next to no footfall on site from spectators as they are also working for a living.
Footfall at club race meeting is very low in my experience. "Spectators" tend to be associated with competitors.HustleRussell said:
Turnout across the board would be negligible and huge losses inevitable.
Even though track days are brimmed with potential racers almost every day of week ?I don't buy in to your pessimism that club racing must be cripplingly expensive and the domain of rich competitors only.
bigothunter said:
HustleRussell said:
£169 track days on a Saturday or Sunday during the racing season?
andy97 said:
Circuit hire charges on weekdays are far cheaper than on weekends in the main racing season.
The average track day has, what 100 people taking part? The average CSCC meeting has 150 per day and in the example given at Rockingham still lost money.
Good point chaps. I'm a retired old fart so midweek track days make sense to me and my cohorts The average track day has, what 100 people taking part? The average CSCC meeting has 150 per day and in the example given at Rockingham still lost money.
But your observation has stimulated thinking outside the box. Many racers use circuits during weekdays at amateur and professional levels (including BTCC drivers at track days). Organisers, marshals, recovery crew, etc are all in attendance.
So why not hold some low-key budget race meetings during weekdays as well? If more time off from work is a problem, go racing rather than testing
Didnt last long.
And i would expect the circuits to put up hire charges for a race meeting even if it was mid week.
HustleRussell said:
bigothunter said:
I don't buy in to your pessimism
Pessimism is an example of sentiment, that club racing is expensive is a fact. With regard to the rest of that sentence, I said nothing of the like. I compete myself and I am not rich. andy97 said:
Racing in midweek was tried in the 80s or 90s (i forget when exactly) and known as the Power Tour or something similar. Didnt last long..
Didn't know that - thanks. Shame it failed...andy97 said:
And i would expect the circuits to put up hire charges for a race meeting even if it was mid week.
Indeed - why miss a profit making opportunity? Dynion Araf Uchaf said:
Stuff.... .
As a scrutineer I can assure you that if there is a problem with the belts/harnesses and fire extinguishers, it is highly likely there will be a problem with something else. For some competitors, having the extinguisher pull actually functioning or even connected to the extinguisher would be an improvement, never mind the correct bottle being in date.The people who have fought against logbooks for race cars are the racing committee at MSUK. This one is fairly and squarely on their shoulders.
As for being electronic
A database of scrutineering “issues” was started last year “on the sly” with the club I work with. In ’22, This is now publicly known and every single pass, fail, advisory is noted now and is uploaded to the database.
The tired old tropes of “well, I’ve never been told that one before”
Or
“It was checked at Brands, and it was OK then” - will have to end...
Competitors have already been caught out with the above 2 replies, with the championships I look after, we are just 2 (yes two!) meetings into the season..They were been told that there is database running of “faults found” which will be available to scrutineers at later events in the year. Experience so far this season indicates this is proving unpopular with those pushing their luck.
Dynion Araf Uchaf said:
Maybe it is coming. I hope so.
Be careful what you wish for…HustleRussell said:
Your attitude in this thread makes me think that you must have some insight into the financial aspects of running of circuits or clubs? anything you can share?
My 'attitude' is to develop ideas which could make club racing more affordable and hence available to more enthusiasts. What's yours?bucksmanuk said:
Dynion Araf Uchaf said:
Stuff.... .
As a scrutineer I can assure you that if there is a problem with the belts/harnesses and fire extinguishers, it is highly likely there will be a problem with something else. For some competitors, having the extinguisher pull actually functioning or even connected to the extinguisher would be an improvement, never mind the correct bottle being in date.
The people who have fought against logbooks for race cars are the racing committee at MSUK. This one is fairly and squarely on their shoulders.
As for being electronic
A database of scrutineering “issues” was started last year “on the sly” with the club I work with. In ’22, This is now publicly known and every single pass, fail, advisory is noted now and is uploaded to the database.
The tired old tropes of “well, I’ve never been told that one before”
Or
“It was checked at Brands, and it was OK then” - will have to end...
Competitors have already been caught out with the above 2 replies, with the championships I look after, we are just 2 (yes two!) meetings into the season..They were been told that there is database running of “faults found” which will be available to scrutineers at later events in the year. Experience so far this season indicates this is proving unpopular with those pushing their luck.
Dynion Araf Uchaf said:
Maybe it is coming. I hope so.
Be careful what you wish for…
I think we are on the same page. Your point about extinguisher pulls not operating kind of backs up my point on, where do we focus the effort? An out of date extinguisher will work and put out a fire, if the pull is bStuff.... .
As a scrutineer I can assure you that if there is a problem with the belts/harnesses and fire extinguishers, it is highly likely there will be a problem with something else. For some competitors, having the extinguisher pull actually functioning or even connected to the extinguisher would be an improvement, never mind the correct bottle being in date.
The people who have fought against logbooks for race cars are the racing committee at MSUK. This one is fairly and squarely on their shoulders.
As for being electronic
A database of scrutineering “issues” was started last year “on the sly” with the club I work with. In ’22, This is now publicly known and every single pass, fail, advisory is noted now and is uploaded to the database.
The tired old tropes of “well, I’ve never been told that one before”
Or
“It was checked at Brands, and it was OK then” - will have to end...
Competitors have already been caught out with the above 2 replies, with the championships I look after, we are just 2 (yes two!) meetings into the season..They were been told that there is database running of “faults found” which will be available to scrutineers at later events in the year. Experience so far this season indicates this is proving unpopular with those pushing their luck.
Dynion Araf Uchaf said:
Maybe it is coming. I hope so.
Be careful what you wish for…
ksed then maybe not.Seat belts, again - check for condition not age.
In my view ( and I actually think the MUK may have listened to me because I mentioned this to them a couple of years ago) A E-log book is the way forward. A central database of all race cars, helps with locating or identifying stolen cars or parts. Also if the log book also contained racing results the the MUK have a database of who races where and how often. From that you could potentially look at how you grade seat belts for example. A driver that does 3 events per year could have his belts for longer than one that does 20.
Making notes of passes, fails advisories is just common sense, and should be used to drive change in car prep, however the identification of issues needs to be a little more real world. A couple of times I've had scrutineers make a point about my lap strap potentially rubbing against the gap in the seat and potentially be a problem. But it never is, because I change the belts every 5 years and in that time hey have about 20 hours of use.
Other smaller issues, that are marginal, such as maybe a slightly loose battery tray. You can be prevented from competing on that point, but realistically if it was ever an issue, it'd be because of some other significant issue like a crash. That needs to go into an advisory to be fixed at the next race.
Also if drivers initially create the E-log book, uploading photos and description etc conforming to an MUK process then you could get to the point whereby scrutineering is not required every meeting, thus saving time on the day, which would get a buy in from competitors.
However it does have to be electronic, a database and have lots of data that can be used.
Back on topic, I would be looking at Javelin Sprints for that taste of competition with low investment.
As a low budget club racer, I think the main aspect of being expensive for myself at least comes from following a Champion schedule, deadlines have to be met (Time is money?). The car must be ready for each event which often means parts and work to be completed, sometimes by professionals unfortunately.
I reckon trackdays would sharp feel expensive participating at least once a month for 7-8months of the year, making sure the car is in tip top condition before each event, a TD at Oulton can be £329 these days which I found hard to swallow.
As a low budget club racer, I think the main aspect of being expensive for myself at least comes from following a Champion schedule, deadlines have to be met (Time is money?). The car must be ready for each event which often means parts and work to be completed, sometimes by professionals unfortunately.
I reckon trackdays would sharp feel expensive participating at least once a month for 7-8months of the year, making sure the car is in tip top condition before each event, a TD at Oulton can be £329 these days which I found hard to swallow.
Edited by k20ris on Monday 16th May 14:44
Trying to inject some objectivity into this debate and avoid pointless tussles 
Being very old, I started club racing back in 1979. Entry fee for a 15 to 20 minute race was £35 (£139 today).
Forward to 1992, and the entry fee had increased to £90 (£160 today).
CSCC 40 minute race entry is around £420 today.
In the bad old days, race meeting were poorly organised with massive delays which often caused the schedule to run late. Grids were often sparse. Cancellation of the last race was commonplace due to time lost.
CSCC events today are incredibly efficient and often run ahead of schedule. Grids are packed. Despite races typically being 40 not 20 minutes duration, the same number of races get packed into the day. There is about twice as much time spent racing due to efficiency improvements.
Couple of observations:
Entry cost has increased from £8 per minute to £10.50 over the same period (today's money) which is surprisingly stable (only 31% increase)
Income from entry fees per meeting has more than doubled between 1992 and 2022. This has not benefitted the competitor.
Being very old, I started club racing back in 1979. Entry fee for a 15 to 20 minute race was £35 (£139 today).
Forward to 1992, and the entry fee had increased to £90 (£160 today).
CSCC 40 minute race entry is around £420 today.
In the bad old days, race meeting were poorly organised with massive delays which often caused the schedule to run late. Grids were often sparse. Cancellation of the last race was commonplace due to time lost.
CSCC events today are incredibly efficient and often run ahead of schedule. Grids are packed. Despite races typically being 40 not 20 minutes duration, the same number of races get packed into the day. There is about twice as much time spent racing due to efficiency improvements.
Couple of observations:
Entry cost has increased from £8 per minute to £10.50 over the same period (today's money) which is surprisingly stable (only 31% increase)
Income from entry fees per meeting has more than doubled between 1992 and 2022. This has not benefitted the competitor.
k20ris said:
Back on topic, I would be looking at Javelin Sprints for that taste of competition with low investment.
We have competed in many Javelin Sprints. Superbly organised with entry fees between £149 and £199. Many use proper race circuits. Javelin do not get embroiled in the complexities of MSUK control.HustleRussell said:
bigothunter said:
Indeed - why miss a profit making opportunity?
Your attitude in this thread makes me think that you must have some insight into the financial aspects of running of circuits or clubs? anything you can share? Like, an order of magnitude out.
bigothunter said:
Trying to inject some objectivity into this debate and avoid pointless tussles
Being very old, I started club racing back in 1979. Entry fee for a 15 to 20 minute race was £35 (£139 today).
Forward to 1992, and the entry fee had increased to £90 (£160 today).
CSCC 40 minute race entry is around £420 today.
In the bad old days, race meeting were poorly organised with massive delays which often caused the schedule to run late. Grids were often sparse. Cancellation of the last race was commonplace due to time lost.
CSCC events today are incredibly efficient and often run ahead of schedule. Grids are packed. Despite races typically being 40 not 20 minutes duration, the same number of races get packed into the day. There is about twice as much time spent racing due to efficiency improvements.
Couple of observations:
Entry cost has increased from £8 per minute to £10.50 over the same period (today's money) which is surprisingly stable (only 31% increase)
Income from entry fees per meeting has more than doubled between 1992 and 2022. This has not benefitted the competitor.
Good points and nice to ground it will some past numbers. Being very old, I started club racing back in 1979. Entry fee for a 15 to 20 minute race was £35 (£139 today).
Forward to 1992, and the entry fee had increased to £90 (£160 today).
CSCC 40 minute race entry is around £420 today.
In the bad old days, race meeting were poorly organised with massive delays which often caused the schedule to run late. Grids were often sparse. Cancellation of the last race was commonplace due to time lost.
CSCC events today are incredibly efficient and often run ahead of schedule. Grids are packed. Despite races typically being 40 not 20 minutes duration, the same number of races get packed into the day. There is about twice as much time spent racing due to efficiency improvements.
Couple of observations:
Entry cost has increased from £8 per minute to £10.50 over the same period (today's money) which is surprisingly stable (only 31% increase)
Income from entry fees per meeting has more than doubled between 1992 and 2022. This has not benefitted the competitor.
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