Nurburgring 24hr 2023

[500TORQUES]

Brent Hoffmeister said:

That makes sense, thanks for the clarification

Thanks for working the event!

[Wayoftheflower]

Bit of commentary on the race and passing of slower classes by Chris Harris in this week's Collecting Addicts podcast.

[freedman]

Vanthoor brothers podcast discusses it this week

https://youtu.be/sYpIXrhGMm4

The number of cars, and the skills required b6 the quick drivers to pass the slower ones has always been a feature of N24

We’ve seen leading cars crash out before by I’ll advised overtakes or back markers taking them out. (I recall Manthey being taken out in the middle of the night by an errant Mini a few years ago)

However, despite it being a fan favourite, surely the Dacia Logan has no place in this field?.

Nothing to do with its accident last week, where the 911 was to blame, but

It qualified 3 and a half minutes slower than the quicker GT3 cars, and over a minute slower than the Manta!

It wasn’t racing anything at all, being nearly a minute a lap slower than almost every other car in the field

I’m sure many would disagree, but it just seems that running cars that slow is just knowingly putting everyone at risk, when they are just attempting to survive, and nothing else

[LukeBrown66]

I do see your point however this race has always been about everyone being a part of it, there are cars that are pretty slow other than the Logan and they are as much of a hazard as it is. But it is only a hazard if it gets in the way and for years now it never has, and it did not this time, it was not the drivers fault at all, most who drive it are seasoned Ring drivers who drive hundreds of Tourist laps a year so they deal with far more errant traffic than any race driver would.

I would hope it now gets rebuilt, perhaps with a better engine to make it more quick or maybe they come back with a Dacia of another kind. What amazes me is Dacia not really getting involved!

[Digga]

I have no real knowledge from the POV of a racer, let alone 24hrs, but it must b shades of grey; if you’re a front runner then there’s lots that are significantly slower than you. You know the sort of lap times the Dacia does and, in this day and age, you’d hope your crew could call up when and where you’re passing it, surely?

IMHO, having a wide variety of cars in the race makes for a very broad appeal.

[freedman]

Digga said:

I have no real knowledge from the POV of a racer, let alone 24hrs, but it must b shades of grey; if you’re a front runner then there’s lots that are significantly slower than you. You know the sort of lap times the Dacia does and, in this day and age, you’d hope your crew could call up when and where you’re passing it, surely?

IMHO, having a wide variety of cars in the race makes for a very broad appeal.

Of course it does, but to have a single car that is a minute a lap slower than the next slowest in the field is bordering on madness

[b0rk]

What matters more is not the absolute laptime but the delta between fastest and slowest overall and within each eligible class.

In the 2016 round the fastest lap was 8:19 for a SP9 car and the slowest non problem lap 10:37 for a SP3.

In the 2023 round the fastest SP9 race lap was 8:09 some 10 seconds up on seven years ago. The Dacia turned in as a fastest lap 11:49.

Even going back nine years to 2014, SP9 8:20, SP3 11:03.

The historic delta between fastest SP9 and slowest SP3 has been around 2:30 some years slightly more, some less.

The ADAC/NLS can decide which classes are eligible of course. IMHO setting a maximum laptime for each class relative to the fastest in the class makes sense to me to limit cars that are just not competitive.
F1 had the 107% qualifying rule.

[LukeBrown66]

But the issue is the precedent you are setting that the race is starting to be ruled by the fastest cars and biggest teams, it is like saying amateurs cannot compete at Le Mans despite the fact they probably cause a high percentage of incidents in the race. Why is that never raised, well mainly because in the main thee guys are rich, funny that.

The Logan has been int he race for many years and never been a problem, it was this year and all of a sudden it is a problem.

Well it will hopefully be back, hopefully quicker and then you can all leave it alone!

[Digga]

Also, you could set any sort of “fastest car -X%” rule which removes the Dacia, but you will still always have slower vehicles.

Race cars limping back to the pits with punctures or crash damage and, most importantly course safety marshals, and emergency and recovery vehicles.

The onus has to be on the faster cars. It’s not a perfect situation and mistakes do get made, but the alternative is not to race.

[500TORQUES]

LukeBrown66 said:

But the issue is the precedent you are setting that the race is starting to be ruled by the fastest cars and biggest teams, it is like saying amateurs cannot compete at Le Mans despite the fact they probably cause a high percentage of incidents in the race. Why is that never raised, well mainly because in the main thee guys are rich, funny that.

The Logan has been int he race for many years and never been a problem, it was this year and all of a sudden it is a problem.

Well it will hopefully be back, hopefully quicker and then you can all leave it alone!

Without those rich guys there would be no top end motorsport bar the few works cars that are factory funded. Most high to mid level motorsport events need those guys to spend their money.

There is still a level of ability that is safe to participate, if you become a problem you won't get an entry, even if you managed to get the required license grade.

[entropy]

I think it shows how the N24 and GT3 cars have moved on.

N24 has become part of GT3 racing. GT3 cars were originally a pro-am class and superseded SRO GT1 and are much more sophisticated now. Not that this is a new thing we've seen it happen with LMGTs, Super Touring being prominent examples.

[LukeBrown66]

500

My point was not about how good amateurs are, my point was a comparison between their level of driving that causes more issues than the pro drivers, to a slow car like the Logan and the quick having to deal with it every few laps.

if you think about it the comparison is fairly similar, some of the amateurs in GT and LMP racing are less than great, and some of the cars in the N24 are slow enough to be a hazard.

However I would suggest an unpredictable amateur ir far more dangerous to quicker cars than a Logan driven mainly by people who seem to spend a large amount of time at teh Ring

[thegreenhell]

I think the Logan stood out more this year because it was the only one at that slow pace. In previous years there have been several more slow cars in the field - old Golfs, Opel Calibras, Clios etc - all bimbling around at 11+ minute pace amongst the GT3 cars.

[Truckosaurus]

Indeed. There were 'only' 130-odd starters for this years race compared to 200+ in the recent past.

I suspect many of the missing cars would be towards the slower end of the grid.

[acer12]

whats the reason for the big drop off in entries, cost / regulations / teams moving on?

[LukeBrown66]

A very expensive event, no doubt the costs for entry have also gone up a lot.

Plus, it is possibly a huge expense to do the event when you could do several rounds of other series.

[bumskins]

freedman said:

However, despite it being a fan favourite, surely the Dacia Logan has no place in this field?.

Nothing to do with its accident last week, where the 911 was to blame, but

It qualified 3 and a half minutes slower than the quicker GT3 cars, and over a minute slower than the Manta!

Although probably true this is a shame, it would never happen but would love to see the N24 swing back towards more production-based variants.

IMO GT racing has become somewhat boring, everyone running the same factory-built cars with slightly different liveries/aero and suspension settings etc., it would be a far greater spectacle to return to the days of Group A or Group N regulations where people can relate to the cars, they become cheaper/easier to build thereby removing a barrier to entry, and as the factory teams aren't chasing every last 0.0001% then the laptimes begin to come down.

Of course i'm a relic/dinosaur of a bygone age, but IMO touring cars started going downhill in the mid-90s from it-s 60s/70s/80s high points, and would love to see a modern equivalent of these Group A regulations being applied. Even as recently as 1996/7 you had a Group N E36 M3 winning the N24 outright, wouldn't happen in a million years now

[Digga]

bumskins said:

Even as recently as 1996/7 you had a Group N E36 M3 winning the N24 outright, wouldn't happen in a million years now

I probably have pants older than that vintage. It's only old fkers like you and I can call 96/7 'recent'.

I know what you mean though. FWIW, talking to the instructor I had on last trip (Laurin Johlen) he says the 2.5 litre class is still dominated by the E36 325i.

[bumskins]

Digga said:

I probably have pants older than that vintage. It's only old fkers like you and I can call 96/7 'recent'.

I know what you mean though. FWIW, talking to the instructor I had on last trip (Laurin Johlen) he says the 2.5 litre class is still dominated by the E36 325i.

Yeah I probably have too! It's not the end of the world as 'people like us' are catered for with the classic/historic side of things on the Nordschleife with the 3 hour event, but I still have very fond memories of the late 70s/early 80s where individual teams were collecting production cars from showrooms, then performing a limited set of modifications (and I imagine quite a few more if you were someone like Tom Walkinshaw..!), getting some sponsorship if necessary, then taking to the track. The way you used to have Opel Monzas, Ford Capris et al lapping circuits on the doorhandles, and all so evenly matched too, made for a racing spectacle seldom-equalled nowadays.

Modern GT3 cars are indeed impressive feats of engineering, but they're so far-removed from what they're 'based on' that it's impossible to relate to what it must be like to thrash the arse off one.

[GlobalRacer]

What's worse? A car that is a minute slower on a lap that size or a car that is 15 seconds slower on a 1 minute lap? Racing all over the world, every weekend, there are races with huge differences in lap times and they manage just fine.