Gascoyne leaves Toyota
Discussion
telecat said:
In this case I believe it is important. The teams have small but vital companies in the area that Supply parts and expertise much as a large company can produce those parts they don't seem to have the "nimbleness" of those companies to respond when a new or improved part is required. This remains a small specialised industry and cannot be shipped off to China like many others.
Quite agree, but these companies (ranging from decal producers, through analytical labs to widget manufacturers) exist around Cologne, Munich and Modena as well. It's only my opinion, but the historical agglomeration of teams around motorsport valley seems less important for new entrants than it was in the past. With further moves toward standardisation (engine components, control systems, brakes) it strikes me that the other locations are increasingly tenable. Labour laws still work in our favour (anybody fancy running a team out of France?), and Europe retains a (diminished) edge in terms of logistical costs to support the races, but I can't see why Toyota or BMW will be unduly handicapped by dint of location.
willibetz said:
FWIW, Gascoyne joined Jordan in June '98, shortly (perhaps, you might reasonably protest, too shortly) before their 1,2 at Spa in August.
IMHO that is too short a spell for anyone to have an effect in their role in a team, with the possible exception of a driver, but that is dependant on the car's systems suiting their driving style, which is a rarity - e.g.Ruben's problems with the JB-biased TC system in the Honda.
willibetz said:
I think you may be relying rather too heavily on your self-professed humility in order to accuse me of superiority.
I'm not sure that you've been 'accused' of anything, perhaps you've got the wrong end of the stick, it didn't strike me that Ravon's posts were attempting to attack you. In saying that I could have completely misinterpreted either your, or his, tone!
It's my opinion that Ravon is making a valid point, albeit one that is totally subjective of course. I think his final point, the one that you replied to in the quote above, was simply that there are many people in the world who have got where they are through the ability to talk the talk. On a slightly unrealistic note, it strikes me that the apprentice on bbc at the moment is by and large an example of this.
Anyway, I think Gascoyne is a good guy, perhaps not a team player, but someone who can be accused of having been in 'the right place at the right time', throughout his career.
Not meaning to stir anything up, and if i've misinterpreted the tone of the posts, ignore me!
beda said:It's a reasonable assertion, quite possibly true. My take, fwiw, is slightly different. While two months is too short a time to draught and engineer significant new parts for the car, I'd again make the point that Gascoyne wasn't employed as a draughtsman (I have no reason to doubt Ravon's assertion that he was no good in this capacity).
FWIW, Gascoyne joined Jordan in June '98, shortly (perhaps, you might reasonably protest, too shortly) before their 1,2 at Spa in August.
IMHO that is too short a spell for anyone to have an effect in their role in a team, with the possible exception of a driver, but that is dependant on the car's systems suiting their driving style, which is a rarity - e.g.Ruben's problems with the JB-biased TC system in the Honda.
My recollection is that, as Chief Designer, he introduced new processes and concentrated on what would make the existing car perform to the best of its potential (less distractions in the garage, better communication, setup work and strategy). My personal opinion is that changes like these can have a dramatic and swift impact, and could account for the better performance of the Team for the rest of '98 and title challenging '99 season.
I'm not at all surprised - I was expecting the axe to fall. I've never thought that his record stood up to much scrutiny, but he has definitely put Toyota on the right track. IMHO the problem is with the drivers. Both the current incumbents have only won races when their cars were absolutely perfect. The best thing Toyota could do is to get out their chequebook and buy Raikkonen - but he isn't going to go there unless he can see that they're on course to win - that's the reason he's given for not signing a reneewd contract with McLaren (yet).
I can't see who else would be in line to take over at Toyota - the pressure from the main Board must be enormous on Tomita and Howett and they're just not plugged into the inner sanctum of F1 to spot the type of opportunity that RBR took to snaffle Newey.
I can't see who else would be in line to take over at Toyota - the pressure from the main Board must be enormous on Tomita and Howett and they're just not plugged into the inner sanctum of F1 to spot the type of opportunity that RBR took to snaffle Newey.
rubystone said:
................and they're just not plugged into the inner sanctum of F1 to spot the type of opportunity that RBR took to snaffle Newey.
They're not in England either.
There was a time, if you wanted a chat with Ayrton Senna all you had to do was pop down to the Cricketers in Charlton Village at lunchtime.
PS I'm a draughtsman too - not retired though.
>> Edited by RobbieMeister on Thursday 6th April 14:51
willibetz said:
In this case I believe it is important. The teams have small but vital companies in the area that Supply parts and expertise much as a large company can produce those parts they don't seem to have the "nimbleness" of those companies to respond when a new or improved part is required. This remains a small specialised industry and cannot be shipped off to China like many others.
Quite agree, but these companies (ranging from decal producers, through analytical labs to widget manufacturers) exist around Cologne, Munich and Modena as well. It's only my opinion, but the historical agglomeration of teams around motorsport valley seems less important for new entrants than it was in the past. With further moves toward standardisation (engine components, control systems, brakes) it strikes me that the other locations are increasingly tenable. Labour laws still work in our favour (anybody fancy running a team out of France?), and Europe retains a (diminished) edge in terms of logistical costs to support the races, but I can't see why Toyota or BMW will be unduly handicapped by dint of location.
But they obviously will be. The experience of those companies is obviously way behind those in "Motorsport Valley" hence the difficulties of Sauber and Toyota. Those industries also did exist in France but they withered. The only other spot they exist with similar experience and expertise is around Modena. The strength of Motorsport Valley is that it is easy to get to a "level" by locating your team there. In another locaion you have the problem of getting theose small companies to understand the F1 ethic, that makes it more expensive to locate outside the "valley".
telecat said:
I can't see why Toyota or BMW will be unduly handicapped by dint of location.
But they obviously will be. The experience of those companies is obviously way behind those in "Motorsport Valley" hence the difficulties of Sauber and Toyota. Those industries also did exist in France but they withered. The only other spot they exist with similar experience and expertise is around Modena. The strength of Motorsport Valley is that it is easy to get to a "level" by locating your team there. In another locaion you have the problem of getting theose small companies to understand the F1 ethic, that makes it more expensive to locate outside the "valley".
Perhaps you could expand on why it's obvious?
To reciprocate, I'm happy to share my thinking in case it is of interest to you. A few years back, I spent a lot of time researching regional specialisms and clusters (Paul Krugman, Peter Kay and Michael Porter are worth reading) and applying what I learnt to Britain's motorsport industry. I formed a view (which I'm happy to have challenged) about:
- why Britain came to dominate motorsport, ahead of Germany and Italy
- why Britain's motorsport industry clustered around Oxford and Northampton
- an analysis of what might happen going forward
Looking back to the late '40s and early '50s, Italian manufacturers (Alfa, Ferrari, Lancia, Maserati) along with Mercedes were the dominant forces in motorsport. But Mercedes withdrew from motorsport after the accident at Le Mans in 1955, and road racing (an Italian obsession) went into decline after the deaths at the 1957 Mille Miglia. At about the same time, there was also a huge shift in technology, away from heavy powerful front engined cars to light mid-engined cars. These cars drew more on aeronautical skillsets, and Britain was flush with trained aeronautical engineers in the post-war years (Italy's aircraft industry being much smaller). In post-war Britain, club racing was thriving on disused airfields, supported by specialist engineering companies and skilled labour.
If you buy into this history, then you can see that the locus of an industry can shift quickly due to happenstance and a change in technology trajectory.
But why did the motorsport industry concentrate around Oxford/Northampton rather than, say, Goodwood? Well, in the mid-60s Ford put the money up to fund development of the Cosworth DFV in Northampton, to replace the Coventry Climax. After a year of dominance, they made the engine commercially available and pretty much every F1 team used it. Robin Herd left Cosworth and, along with Max Mosley, decided to set up a race team, March, in Bicester. March needed suppliers, and a cottage industry developed to support them. March also spawned loads of other F1 related motorsport companies and it made sense for other teams to locate nearby, close to existing suppliers, Silverstone and Cosworth.
So what about the continued success of MSV? It's my view that the continued competitive edge of Britain's motorsport valley is at risk, for a few reasons...
- the move from independent to manufacturer-led teams has changed the the way teams go racing, with more teams responsible for both engine and chassis development.
- many of the technologies supporting F1 are now relatively mature - a problem exacerbated by the prospect of stability in the technical regulations
- going forward we face the prospect of increased standardisation within F1, which will lead to fewer suppliers and less room for innovation
- in this technical climate, the integration of aero, chassis and engine development is increasingly important. Having your development teams work closely may be more important than where they work.
- the teams are growing concerns, handling more development inhouse and choosing from a small number of trusted suppliers for parts that they source externally (eg. ATL for fuel cells, OZ or BBS for wheels, AP Racing for clutches etc)
- Ferrari have demonstrated that locating in MSV is not a critical success factor, as long as you form and retain the right core team and give them autonomy
- Manufacturers may value the ability to demonstrate the close ties of their road and race departments (even if they act autonomously and separately). This is easier if the race team operates from their home town.
One final thought - Wouldn't it be ironic if, having had a guiding hand in developing Britain's motorsport valley, Max Mosley's cost cutting measures played their part in its decline?
>> Edited by willibetz on Monday 10th April 12:28
willibetz said:
......................
But why did the motorsport industry concentrate around Oxford/Northampton rather than, say, Goodwood? Well, in the mid-60s Ford put the money up to fund development of the Cosworth DFV in Northampton, to replace the Coventry Climax. After a year of dominance, they made the engine commercially available and pretty much every F1 team used it. Robin Herd left Cosworth and, along with Max Mosley, decided to set up a race team, March, in Bicester. March needed suppliers, and a cottage industry developed to support them. March also spawned loads of other F1 related motorsport companies and it made sense for other teams to locate nearby, close to existing suppliers, Silverstone and Cosworth.
.......................
March the epicentre of the F1 industry? What a sad state of affairs.
But I think not.
It started (mostly) in Surrey. Due to the skill available from the Vickers/BAC factory at Weybridge built on the Brooklands site.
HWM (Walton-on-Thames), Connaught (Ripley), Cooper (Surbiton and Byfleet), Brabham (New Haw and Chessington), Project 4 (? Woking probably), Mclaren (Woking), Tyrell (Ockham), Lola (Colnbrook Middlesex). I'm sure there are others but that's all I can remember of the top of my head. Plus Barnard set his Ferrari offshoot at Guildford.
In addition and at a guess, Surtees were in Edenbridge.
The only exceptions that I can remember are Williams and Lotus.
>> Edited by RobbieMeister on Monday 10th April 14:40
MSV is a relatively recent development, to take the discussion further.
If you go back to the early/mid 60's when the UK ascendant period strated you had Lotus locating from London to Norfolk - presumably for cost reasons - and most of the other teams based in and around Surrey and using engineering and manufacturing support systems to the west of London, often near Heathrow.
The skills were there, people moved from one team to another and they were quite close to the ports and airports.
The Cosworth link was a spur in a way, though not all DFV's were Cosworth maintained. Presumably there was a good reason for March to decide to set up in Bicester. Shadow chose Northampton seeiong perhaps some benefit being near to Cosworth.
Surtees was in Kent. Cooper(?), Tyrrell, Brabham and McLaren close to each other in Surrey - especially after McLaren moved from Colnbrook. Hewland were in Maidenhead and were the dominant gearbox supplier. Jack Knight engineering in Woking were a significant supplier to all teams and the Gomm workshops in Woking were often used for anything to do with Aluminium fabrication. There were a couple of specialist wing manufacturers in London. I suspect the proximity of Silverstone and the rise of Williams assisted the Oxford cause, amongst other things. But let's not forget that Ferrari had a design set up in Godalming for several years.
Despite all of that I think the main reasons for location revolved around where the senior managers live or wanted to live. And when the original owners sold on it was not so difficult (in fact it was probably unavoidable) to move the operation if it seemed necessary.
So UK has had 40 years of pre-eminence in effect, pretty much split between the Surrey group (Plus Lotus) in the first 20 years and the MSV group in the second 20 years of the period (Apologies to McLaren but ...).
Before that there were 20 years of Italian or German pre-eminence and prior to that I guess it would be France to the fore.
I don't really think the location matters much these days. The key is making it all come together and hang together well enough to have the edge over the competition. In these days of extreme reliability (compared to yesteryear) the proximity to and relationship with suppliers is mostly important for the realtionship and the quality of their work. Proximity helped in earlier timesif a drawing needs to be delivered to a manufacturer of key components - but the digital age sort of bypasses that factor and mature delivery systems mean that development time savings offered by having suppliers with relevant specific skills almost co-located are no longer such important considerations.
Well, that and the budgets making things like transportation into petty cash items.
If you go back to the early/mid 60's when the UK ascendant period strated you had Lotus locating from London to Norfolk - presumably for cost reasons - and most of the other teams based in and around Surrey and using engineering and manufacturing support systems to the west of London, often near Heathrow.
The skills were there, people moved from one team to another and they were quite close to the ports and airports.
The Cosworth link was a spur in a way, though not all DFV's were Cosworth maintained. Presumably there was a good reason for March to decide to set up in Bicester. Shadow chose Northampton seeiong perhaps some benefit being near to Cosworth.
Surtees was in Kent. Cooper(?), Tyrrell, Brabham and McLaren close to each other in Surrey - especially after McLaren moved from Colnbrook. Hewland were in Maidenhead and were the dominant gearbox supplier. Jack Knight engineering in Woking were a significant supplier to all teams and the Gomm workshops in Woking were often used for anything to do with Aluminium fabrication. There were a couple of specialist wing manufacturers in London. I suspect the proximity of Silverstone and the rise of Williams assisted the Oxford cause, amongst other things. But let's not forget that Ferrari had a design set up in Godalming for several years.
Despite all of that I think the main reasons for location revolved around where the senior managers live or wanted to live. And when the original owners sold on it was not so difficult (in fact it was probably unavoidable) to move the operation if it seemed necessary.
So UK has had 40 years of pre-eminence in effect, pretty much split between the Surrey group (Plus Lotus) in the first 20 years and the MSV group in the second 20 years of the period (Apologies to McLaren but ...).
Before that there were 20 years of Italian or German pre-eminence and prior to that I guess it would be France to the fore.
I don't really think the location matters much these days. The key is making it all come together and hang together well enough to have the edge over the competition. In these days of extreme reliability (compared to yesteryear) the proximity to and relationship with suppliers is mostly important for the realtionship and the quality of their work. Proximity helped in earlier timesif a drawing needs to be delivered to a manufacturer of key components - but the digital age sort of bypasses that factor and mature delivery systems mean that development time savings offered by having suppliers with relevant specific skills almost co-located are no longer such important considerations.
Well, that and the budgets making things like transportation into petty cash items.
Thanks, RobbieMeister and LongQ, for the information on teams and suppliers in and around Surrey. If Brooklands was the focus for all of the these companies, then that would seem to support the idea that facilities (disused airfields) and skills (a pool of aeronautic engineers etc) were important contributors to the success of our post-war motorsport industry.
FWIW, March does seem to have spun off a lot of companies within MSV. With apologies in advance, for errors and omissions:
- Rees left March and formed AVS Shadow (with Oliver, later to form Arrows)
- Thompson went on to form TC Prototypes, later begat Auto Racing Technology
- Reeves formed Rapid Movements
- Stone formed Sabre with Reynard, later splitting to form Reynard and Bill Stone Racing
- Bembo formed DB Motorsport
- Wirth formed Simtek, then joined Benetton
- Gustafson formed Roni Development, later Roni Motorsport
- Mendel formed Mendel Autosport
- Brady formed Brady Fabrications
- Wickham and Coppuck formed Spirit (in Slough, so may not count!)
FWIW, March does seem to have spun off a lot of companies within MSV. With apologies in advance, for errors and omissions:
- Rees left March and formed AVS Shadow (with Oliver, later to form Arrows)
- Thompson went on to form TC Prototypes, later begat Auto Racing Technology
- Reeves formed Rapid Movements
- Stone formed Sabre with Reynard, later splitting to form Reynard and Bill Stone Racing
- Bembo formed DB Motorsport
- Wirth formed Simtek, then joined Benetton
- Gustafson formed Roni Development, later Roni Motorsport
- Mendel formed Mendel Autosport
- Brady formed Brady Fabrications
- Wickham and Coppuck formed Spirit (in Slough, so may not count!)
I forgot BRM earlier - out on a limb at Bourne of course and faded away as things moved on in the 70's.
The MSV is much wider spread than the Surrey/Middlesex club used to be and engine supply has been globalised as well.
But the success of companies like Xtrac, formed by an Ex-Hewland person, as major suppliers in several branches of motor sport and other industries despite being located out at Newbury, suggests that location is less importatn than it was - certainly in commercial terms. Except for workaholic team principles that is. Hence the McLaren development.
(BTW I thought Lola were always based in the Huntingdon area. McLaren used to be at Colnbrook before they moved to Old Woking and then on from there.)
Things changed rather rapidly when the industry expanded and larger and arger factories were required. Bear in mind that teams like Tyrrell, in the early to mid 70's when they were at the top of the F1 rankings, employed just 36 people directly including admin staff. Now it seems you need that number to change a wheel.
I really cannot see Surrey council agreeing to a major factory being constructed in the middle of their countryside - unless you are McLaren. No wonder BAR moved the whole operation to the MSV. Probably many more fincanial incentives to do so.
The MSV is much wider spread than the Surrey/Middlesex club used to be and engine supply has been globalised as well.
But the success of companies like Xtrac, formed by an Ex-Hewland person, as major suppliers in several branches of motor sport and other industries despite being located out at Newbury, suggests that location is less importatn than it was - certainly in commercial terms. Except for workaholic team principles that is. Hence the McLaren development.
(BTW I thought Lola were always based in the Huntingdon area. McLaren used to be at Colnbrook before they moved to Old Woking and then on from there.)
Things changed rather rapidly when the industry expanded and larger and arger factories were required. Bear in mind that teams like Tyrrell, in the early to mid 70's when they were at the top of the F1 rankings, employed just 36 people directly including admin staff. Now it seems you need that number to change a wheel.
I really cannot see Surrey council agreeing to a major factory being constructed in the middle of their countryside - unless you are McLaren. No wonder BAR moved the whole operation to the MSV. Probably many more fincanial incentives to do so.
FourWheelDrift said:
Current rumour after his gardening leave is finished would be moving to Williams. Their chief designer Jorg Zander left last month for "personal reasons".
???
MG had one of the heftiest salaries in the business at Toyota.
Frank and Patrick throw around five-pence pieces like they were manhole covers.
flemke said:
Current rumour after his gardening leave is finished would be moving to Williams. Their chief designer Jorg Zander left last month for "personal reasons".
???
MG had one of the heftiest salaries in the business at Toyota.
Frank and Patrick throw around five-pence pieces like they were manhole covers.
But he's sorted from a cash POV now and seems the sort of guy to relish a challenge...
rubystone said:"Sorted", as in, "Can meet the payroll".
Current rumour after his gardening leave is finished would be moving to Williams. Their chief designer Jorg Zander left last month for "personal reasons".
???
MG had one of the heftiest salaries in the business at Toyota.
Frank and Patrick throw around five-pence pieces like they were manhole covers.
But he's sorted from a cash POV now and seems the sort of guy to relish a challenge...
I wouldn't know what their financial situation is. It seems that they don't have the immediate problems that they faced last summer. Nonetheless,
- the bulk of the recent redirection of F1 sponsorship money has gone to McLaren,
- Williams don't have any manufacturing money, and
- they don't have a Mateschitz-type subsidy from elsewhere.
One wishes Williams well. Perhaps they will hire Gascoyne - who knows? It would be quite a surprise in light of their long history of being economical.
I think it's more likely that Gascoyne will tie himself in to one of the eleven new outfits that have applied to join F1 in '08.
Perhaps in the interim he would do consulting work.
Sorry Flemke, I meant that Gascoyne has enough money trousered from Renault to be able to take on a role that may not pay the ultimate but could serve to prove he has what it takes. Williams are on the verge of signing a title sponsor - it won't exactly bring the money roling in, but should help balance the books.
rubystone said:Got it now - I thought that you were referring to Frank.
Sorry Flemke, I meant that Gascoyne has enough money trousered from Renault to be able to take on a role that may not pay the ultimate but could serve to prove he has what it takes. Williams are on the verge of signing a title sponsor - it won't exactly bring the money roling in, but should help balance the books.
Cheers.
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