Snuff or respectful and educational material?

[jacobyte]

Is it right to put a link to live deaths on a public internet forum, without warning that people are actually being killed in the accidents (rather than just an 18 sign and "not for the squeamish"?

As someone who is sometimes on the black stuff, I chose not to view it, knowing much of what was is there from my limited (relatively to DJC's ) knowedge of motorsport history. But someone of a more curious mind might view it, expecting a few nasty survivable shunts, and get a bit of a shock (as some have).

Should such things perhaps be best left to the imagination in respect of the deceased?

Or is it just something that a driver might prefer not to see, in case it touches a nerve and slows him down?

[GarrettMacD]

jacobyte said:

Is it right to put a link to live deaths on a public internet forum, without warning that people are actually being killed in the accidents

As someone who is sometimes on the black stuff, I chose not to view it, knowing much of what was is there from my limited (relatively to DJC's ) knowedge of motorsport history. But someone of a more curious mind might view it, expecting a few nasty survivable shunts, and get a bit of a shock (as some have).

Or is it just something that a driver might prefer not to see, in case it touches a nerve and slows him down?

I am aware of the thread, and I haven't clicked on any of the videos. When Senna crashed I watched the aftermath, saw the helicopter take him away, and assumed he'd be OK. It was only later that evening that I realised the obvious - if it can happen to him, it can happen to anyone.
I don't need to watch graphic videos to be aware of the dangers of the sport. Equally, I notice that more and more full-contact motorsport is what the public seem to want. The worst offenders are, of course, BTCC and Clio's! So, it's no surprise that video's like this are circulating.
I can't imagine what good it does to the genuine enthusiast or the driver, whether the driver is a clubbie or a pro. And yes, it would touch a nerve.

[Frik]

I found the video to be too voyeruistic for my tastes.

I'm not sure they needed to show the most graphic scenes to get the point across.

[DJC]

A good question.
I sent the link to my bro and parents, but with a good deal of hesitation on the part of sending it to my dad. He was around for most of the accidents and present at things like Aston's fires, Moss's accident at Goodwood, etc. Wasnt sure how he would react, but in the end decided that it wasnt compiled as offensive snuff material, but as a genuine tribute.

Im happy to say that is the first time I have ever witnessed Gilles' shunt and it plain shocked the hell out of me. Sometimes I think ppl need to see these to better understand what they are now watching.

[Eric Mc]

On the whole, I refuse to watch video snippets such as this. However, with only one exception (the awful Pryce accident - which I skipped over - I refuse EVER to look at that one) I had seen all of the other before. Indeed, I remember seeing the Villeneuve accident on the news at the time. It is actually included (as is Paletti's) on the FOCA Official 1982 Season Review Video/DVD. I also remember the Williamson accident on TV at the time and that too is included in some motorsport history videos.

The Von Trips crash has been shown on virtually every documentary on the history of motor sport ever made. However, I have since come across another piece of footage of this crash which appears to have been taken by a spectator and is in colour. In fact, Von Trips car seems to actually hit the camera, it is so close.

Edited by Eric Mc on Thursday 22 June 08:39

[lord summerisle]

Eric Mc said:

On the whole, I refuse to watch video snippets such as this. However, with only one exception (the awful Pryce accident - which I skipped over - I refuse EVER to look at that one) I had seen all of the other before. Indeed, I remember seeing the Villeneuve accident on the news at the time. It is actually included (as is Paletti's) on the FOCA Official 1982 Season Review Video/DVD. I also remember the Williamson accident on TV at the time and that too is included in some motorsport history videos.

The Von Trips crash has been shown on virtually every documentary on the history of motor sport ever made. However, I have since come across another piece of footage of this crash which appears to have been taken by a spectator and is in colour. In fact, Von Trips car seems to actually hit the camera, it is so close.

Edited by Eric Mc on Thursday 22 June 08:39

As i said in the other thread... i found the replay in slow mo close up of that marshal to be too much, and hte injuries sustained by both him and Tom, to be just a bit too far over the line.

other parts i have come accross, and some i hadnt. its a tough line to walk... what is and isnt too far in some cases.

It has made me look at certain parts of F1 i previously skipped over with having an interest in the earlier days... and to know how much has changed since those days... both for those in the drivers seat, and those on the bank looking out for them.

I dont know what i would do presented with a williamson type incident. but at least i'm wearing flame retardant overalls and have good fire extingishers, unlike those marshals that day who had a plastic mac on.

It also shows lessons have been learned and things have changed since those days - like the ambulance and fire trucks following the start, being told to never NEVER cross a live track with a bottle, and never cross a live track if at all possible

[hammerwerfer]

jacobyte said:

Or is it just something that a driver might prefer not to see, in case it touches a nerve and slows him down?

Yeah, good thinking! You can't risk seeing something that will slow you down!

Not sure that it would slow any driver down actually, and tragic as the events were, they were witnessed by millions. They are in the public domain, and I had a look just to see if my memory of the events was correct, having seem many of them over the years, some even on the telly. No different to me than watching a documentary about war, famine or natural disaster.

Most of those who have raced have had the experience of driving past a spot where a fatal accident has occurred, just as drivers on public roads often pass roadshide shrines and bouquets. Gets you thinking about your own mortality alright....does it slow you?

[woody]

Watched the Video a few days ago and I think it definatley serves to highlight the increase in safety that F1 has gone through.

Does anyone remember Luciano Burti's horrific crash at Spa in 2001?? He tangled with Irvine and the car ended up buried up to the airbox in the tyre wall.

Had that been a few years earlier he wouldn't have survived - having been at the race that day I can tell you it was possibly the most thought provoking few minutes I have ever experienced from the time the car left the track to when they extracted Burti - pretty much everyone around me was convinced he'd been killed.

We all pretty much sit in front of the TV on sunday afternoon watching these guy's drive on the limit, and when they have an 'off' how many of us think - "thats nasty, he'll be lucky to get out of that......" - probably non of us, because we now expect drivers to walk away from even the most severe accidents - this is what the video highlights to me, a certain amount of complacency from fans and no doubt even the drivers of modern F1 cars.

Chris

[anonymous-user]

i think it is important to watch videos of drivers crashing and if they are fatal crashes tehn perhaps it is even more important. it is not voyeurism in my opinion, it is more to do with understanding how the acident happened. Nobody can honestly say exactly why senna crashed at imola thus watching the video can help us understand the incident, who knows, one day somebody might spot something everyone else has missed?

also as enthusiastsa nd in the case of some, drivers, we should not doubt that this sport kills and the minute we forget that, the very worst things can happen. if you entered a race not accepting the fact that you could have a serious injury or die, you are only fooling yourself. No matter how strong the cars are, no matter what precautions are taken, accidents like that which killed Michael Park at the rally GB last year can still happen.

some people watch them as a homage to their hero, remember that clark, villeneuve, senna et al all died doing what they loved.

[nerf]

i watched some of it yesterday and felt distinctly uncomfortable with why someone would put somthing like that together.... tacky music and slow motion stuff was dreadful. we all know how dangrous the sport is, we all know people died, but this little film was a little tasteless, pure and simple. im not sure if you could call it snuff, but no way was it 'respectful' or 'educational'..

[stumartin]

pablo said:

Nobody can honestly say exactly why senna crashed at imola thus watching the video can help us understand the incident, who knows, one day somebody might spot something everyone else has missed?

I thought the generally accepted version is that his steering column broke? Either you believe this, or you believe that he took a duff line and the car unsettled over bumps in the track off-line.

I'd imagine the likelihood of spotting something that no-one's seen before must be slim, on the basis that it's already been through a prolonged process of litigation, and the 1-2 seconds of in car footage leading up to the crash are missing..?

I don't think watching this video helps anyone at this stage to "understand" the incident / why or how it happened. But, it does help raise awareness, and that along with encouraging people to look more deeply into the careers of these and other drivers is no bad thing.

[Frik]

stumartin said:

pablo said:

Nobody can honestly say exactly why senna crashed at imola thus watching the video can help us understand the incident, who knows, one day somebody might spot something everyone else has missed?

I thought the generally accepted version is that his steering column broke? Either you believe this, or you believe that he took a duff line and the car unsettled over bumps in the track off-line.

I thought it was generally accepted that as the safety car had not long left the track, the tyre pressures were lower and subsequently so was the car's ride height. Tamburello was taken at full throttle with the ground effect aerodynamics working harder as the velocity increased and the car got lower. Unfortunately at a certain point the car grounded (due to the low ride height) and all ground effect downforce was lost long enough for the car to plow straight on off the track, despite Senna's attempts at correction. The steering column failure was IIRC attributed to the collision with the wall.

[stumartin]

Frik said:

stumartin said:

pablo said:

Nobody can honestly say exactly why senna crashed at imola thus watching the video can help us understand the incident, who knows, one day somebody might spot something everyone else has missed?

I thought the generally accepted version is that his steering column broke? Either you believe this, or you believe that he took a duff line and the car unsettled over bumps in the track off-line.

I thought it was generally accepted that as the safety car had not long left the track, the tyre pressures were lower and subsequently so was the car's ride height. Tamburello was taken at full throttle with the ground effect aerodynamics working harder as the velocity increased and the car got lower. Unfortunately at a certain point the car grounded (due to the low ride height) and all ground effect downforce was lost long enough for the car to plow straight on off the track, despite Senna's attempts at correction. The steering column failure was IIRC attributed to the collision with the wall.

Perhaps then Pablo is right...

Forgive me as I don't have time right now to fully research, but I thought that the tyre pressure argument failed to hold much water once it was found that Senna's previous lap was one of the fastest of the whole race, therefore it was not really plausible to say his tyres weren't up to temperature...?

Pretty sure the litigation centred on the steering column vs bumps debate..

[Frik]

stumartin said:

Forgive me as I don't have time right now to fully research, but I thought that the tyre pressure argument failed to hold much water once it was found that Senna's previous lap was one of the fastest of the whole race, therefore it was not really plausible to say his tyres weren't up to temperature...?

Pretty sure the litigation centred on the steering column vs bumps debate..

An interesting point, though could it not be argued that as the downforce generated by wing in ground effect increases as the ride height decreases, the penultimate lap would have seen the greatest cornering speeds achieved, given the above situation?

As for the litigation, Head and Newey were acquitted weren't they?

[stumartin]

Frik said:

stumartin said:

Forgive me as I don't have time right now to fully research, but I thought that the tyre pressure argument failed to hold much water once it was found that Senna's previous lap was one of the fastest of the whole race, therefore it was not really plausible to say his tyres weren't up to temperature...?

Pretty sure the litigation centred on the steering column vs bumps debate..

An interesting point, though could it not be argued that as the downforce generated by wing in ground effect increases as the ride height decreases, the penultimate lap would have seen the greatest cornering speeds achieved, given the above situation?

As for the litigation, Head and Newey were acquitted weren't they?

Hmm, not being an aerodynamics expert I hesitate to suggest that cold, underinflated tyres would've ruled out such a fast lap regardless of the downforce in effect.

Yes, the litigation (on appeal from the initial decision) was dropped ultimately due to there being a time limit coming into effect to prevent any further prosecution; Head and Newey's protest that the appeal should be heard in order to exonerate them not being met. But, as far as I can see, the question of what caused the accident (as differentiated from whose fault it was) went unresolved, other than that the prosecution and judge favoured the steering column version.

[anonymous-user]

stumartin said:

Frik said:

stumartin said:

pablo said:

Nobody can honestly say exactly why senna crashed at imola thus watching the video can help us understand the incident, who knows, one day somebody might spot something everyone else has missed?

I thought the generally accepted version is that his steering column broke? Either you believe this, or you believe that he took a duff line and the car unsettled over bumps in the track off-line.

I thought it was generally accepted that as the safety car had not long left the track, the tyre pressures were lower and subsequently so was the car's ride height. Tamburello was taken at full throttle with the ground effect aerodynamics working harder as the velocity increased and the car got lower. Unfortunately at a certain point the car grounded (due to the low ride height) and all ground effect downforce was lost long enough for the car to plow straight on off the track, despite Senna's attempts at correction. The steering column failure was IIRC attributed to the collision with the wall.

Perhaps then Pablo is right...

Forgive me as I don't have time right now to fully research, but I thought that the tyre pressure argument failed to hold much water once it was found that Senna's previous lap was one of the fastest of the whole race, therefore it was not really plausible to say his tyres weren't up to temperature...?

Pretty sure the litigation centred on the steering column vs bumps debate..

me?right? well there is a first for everything i suppose! thats the point though, there are several theories, i know a guy who would protest til he was blue in the face that it was suicide and senna was suffering from deeply traumatic personal issues?!?! who he knew this is beyond me but that was his theory!

I think it is just the fact that motorsport is close to our hearts becuase i saw something about space on tv last night and tehy showed the challenger shuttle explosion. to say that it didnt affect me is wrong because people died and it was a tragedy, it didnt affect me in the same way as say, watching a clip of villeneuves death however.

[stumartin]

As I've just posted on the other thread re: perished F1 heroes, perhaps this is something we can all agree on...


Senna montage

[fozzi]

I've just watched a couple of other Senna vids on the back of that latest link... one amazing, one gruesome and have taken positives from each.

First was the opening lap at Donington in the rain... one of the all time great driving performances!

Second was the helicopter shots from Imola (for the first time) and was totally blown away by the number of medics on hand, the difference from those numerous fatalities in the 1970s to Imola 1994 is marked, and a credit to all those involved with making safety improvements in F1.

[road angel a]

I was unlucky enough to be at the Silverstone historic meeting last summer sitting at Copse corner, when one of the guys in the 1950's type cars came round a bit too fast, dug in, he had no seatbelt or rollcage. He was half across the bonnet and the car flipped over and landed ontop of him, and the whole skidded upside down for about 80 yards. We thought he was dead. We were completely shaken up. I found out a day later he was ok. Couldn't believe it though...

Never stopped me from driving fast. We know the risks. We chose not to think of them. As long as we aren't involving other people who don't want to take the risks (ie passers by etc!).

xx

[Nic Jones]

road angel a said:

I was unlucky enough to be at the Silverstone historic meeting last summer sitting at Copse corner, when one of the guys in the 1950's type cars came round a bit too fast, dug in, he had no seatbelt or rollcage. He was half across the bonnet and the car flipped over and landed ontop of him, and the whole skidded upside down for about 80 yards. We thought he was dead. We were completely shaken up. I found out a day later he was ok. Couldn't believe it though...

Never stopped me from driving fast. We know the risks. We chose not to think of them. As long as we aren't involving other people who don't want to take the risks (ie passers by etc!).

xx

I was sat in the Brooklands suite (raa raa ) ands happened to just catch it out of the corner of my eye on the tv, but nobody around us knew what was going on.

COuldn't believe he was ok after that, a lucky, lucky chap