When Max Mosley was arrested:
Discussion
The following was on the BBC's 'This day in history' website feature yesterday
31 July
1962: Violence flares at right-wing rally
Former fascist leader Sir Oswald Mosley has been assaulted at a rally in London's east end.
He and members of his anti-Semitic Blackshirt group were punched to the ground as soon as his meeting opened at Ridley Road, Dalston.
Police were forced to close the meeting within three minutes and made 54 arrests - including Sir Oswald's son Max.
A crowd of several thousand had gathered in the area, where Sir Oswald, leader of the right-wing Union Movement formerly known as the British Union of Fascists, planned to speak from the back of a lorry.
As soon as he appeared from between two police buses the crowd surged forward and knocked Sir Oswald to the ground.
He tried to fight back from the cobbles, before police helped him to climb on the lorry prepared for his address.
'Drowned out'
He was met by a hail of missiles including rotten fruit, pennies and stones and people tried to storm the platform.
His speech was drowned out by continuous boos and a chorus of "down with the fascists".
Scuffles continued as Sir Oswald was shepherded to his car and his vehicle was punched and kicked as it drove off though a gangway cleared by mounted police.
Trouble started long before the meeting began as over 200 police - including 10 on horseback - attempted to clear an area around the lorry-platform.
It took the authorities another hour after Sir Oswald left to clear people from nearby Kingsland High Road.
Those arrested will appear in court tomorrow charged with public order offences.
Amongst the injured were last year's Mayor of Hackney, Alderman Sherman, and his wife.
They both received medical treatment after being struck with an iron bar.
Sir Oswald, a former Labour MP and junior minister, became leader of the British Union of Fascists in 1932.
During the war, he and his wife Diana Mitford, were interned for being a threat to national security. Then in 1948, Sir Oswald formed the right-wing Union Party but failed to get a seat in the 1959 general election.
At various times on PH, when talking about Oswald's son, people including me have allowed that it is not fair to blame the offspring for the sins of the parents. That's true enough.
I wouldn't know what Max Mosley, who would have been 22 years old at the time, might have done at his dad's anti-Semitic Fascist rally that got him arrested.
Perhaps he was amongst the crowd protesting against his dad's despicable political beliefs.
Perhaps he was attempting to mediate peacefully between the two fractious groups.
Perhaps he just happened to be walking in Dalston at the time and innocently got swept up in the fracas.
31 July
1962: Violence flares at right-wing rally
Former fascist leader Sir Oswald Mosley has been assaulted at a rally in London's east end.
He and members of his anti-Semitic Blackshirt group were punched to the ground as soon as his meeting opened at Ridley Road, Dalston.
Police were forced to close the meeting within three minutes and made 54 arrests - including Sir Oswald's son Max.
A crowd of several thousand had gathered in the area, where Sir Oswald, leader of the right-wing Union Movement formerly known as the British Union of Fascists, planned to speak from the back of a lorry.
As soon as he appeared from between two police buses the crowd surged forward and knocked Sir Oswald to the ground.
He tried to fight back from the cobbles, before police helped him to climb on the lorry prepared for his address.
'Drowned out'
He was met by a hail of missiles including rotten fruit, pennies and stones and people tried to storm the platform.
His speech was drowned out by continuous boos and a chorus of "down with the fascists".
Scuffles continued as Sir Oswald was shepherded to his car and his vehicle was punched and kicked as it drove off though a gangway cleared by mounted police.
Trouble started long before the meeting began as over 200 police - including 10 on horseback - attempted to clear an area around the lorry-platform.
It took the authorities another hour after Sir Oswald left to clear people from nearby Kingsland High Road.
Those arrested will appear in court tomorrow charged with public order offences.
Amongst the injured were last year's Mayor of Hackney, Alderman Sherman, and his wife.
They both received medical treatment after being struck with an iron bar.
Sir Oswald, a former Labour MP and junior minister, became leader of the British Union of Fascists in 1932.
During the war, he and his wife Diana Mitford, were interned for being a threat to national security. Then in 1948, Sir Oswald formed the right-wing Union Party but failed to get a seat in the 1959 general election.
At various times on PH, when talking about Oswald's son, people including me have allowed that it is not fair to blame the offspring for the sins of the parents. That's true enough.
I wouldn't know what Max Mosley, who would have been 22 years old at the time, might have done at his dad's anti-Semitic Fascist rally that got him arrested.
Perhaps he was amongst the crowd protesting against his dad's despicable political beliefs.
Perhaps he was attempting to mediate peacefully between the two fractious groups.
Perhaps he just happened to be walking in Dalston at the time and innocently got swept up in the fracas.
Edited by flemke on Tuesday 1st August 15:32
Unless we know the exact reason we can't judge. And besides, people can change over time - we're talking over 40 years ago. Especially when you consider his father's occupation, it's possible that the family politics dominated and probably heavily influenced Max's early life.
Is this really necessary in a motorsport discussion forum?
Is this really necessary in a motorsport discussion forum?
kevin ritson said:
Unless we know the exact reason we can't judge. And besides, people can change over time - we're talking over 40 years ago. Especially when you consider his father's occupation, it's possible that the family politics dominated and probably heavily influenced Max's early life.
Is this really necessary in a motorsport discussion forum?
True, we cannot judge in the sense of coming to an unequivocable finding. Is this really necessary in a motorsport discussion forum?
We can form or modify opinions, which is what we all do in almost every aspect of our lives.
As for whether it's really necessary in a motorsport discussion forum, most things on PH are not really necessary, but to some people they are really interesting.
I'd say that gaining whatever insights one can into the character of the most influential person in motorsport in the world is pretty relevant to motorsport. You disagree?
flemke said:
I'd say that gaining whatever insights one can into the character of the most influential person in motorsport in the world is pretty relevant to motorsport. You disagree?
I don't disagree, but it's not immediately clear to me what insight we can gain from an arrest for unspecified reasons which took place 44 years ago? If it happened four years ago, then fine - but 44 years ago?
If my suitability to do my current job was decided by my behaviour when I was 22 I very much doubt that I would have my current job. I would be surprised if many people would.
There are plenty of reasons not to like the way Max does his job that are about what he does now not what he did in the past or the gene pool from which he sprang.
There are plenty of reasons not to like the way Max does his job that are about what he does now not what he did in the past or the gene pool from which he sprang.
rustybin said:
If my suitability to do my current job was decided by my behaviour when I was 22 I very much doubt that I would have my current job. I would be surprised if many people would.
There are plenty of reasons not to like the way Max does his job that are about what he does now not what he did in the past or the gene pool from which he sprang.
Richard, There are plenty of reasons not to like the way Max does his job that are about what he does now not what he did in the past or the gene pool from which he sprang.
By posting the article I did not intend to evidence a smoking gun at the scene of the crime. As you say, there is plenty in his current behaviour to dislike. Indeed, it is only because of his dubious current behaviour that one might even be curious about the guy's form.
I don't believe, however, that the example of your behaviour as a 22 year-old is the right one.
If Mr X (not you) had got into a punch-up at that age, 18 years later a potential employer would probably not be too bothered when a 40 year-old applicant mentioned it. Rowdiness is not uncommon amongst 22 year-olds; in some parts of the world it might be the norm.
The great majority of those who got into punch-ups when they were that age do not still do so at age 40, so the employer has no particular reason to worry. The punch-up was typical youthful foolishness.
At the age of 22 it is uncommon, however, to go to a Fascist rally, especially when a guy has had a very sophisticated upbringing and he - of all people - should be keenly aware of the its associations, provocations, and unseemly bearing.
We're not talking about some wayward, disadvantaged estate child who never got a break. We're talking about someone who was working towards his qualification as a barrister.
In itself the BBC article is no big deal, but I do think it is another tile in the mosaic portrait of the guy who appears to dictate terms to the world's motorsport.
Flemke, you bang out of order on this one.
It's a low dig.
Moseley, love him or hate him as done many good things for the sport. He was behind the introduction of the EuroNcap saftey tests for cars for instance. His Dad was a fascist leader (not exactly his fault was it? ) and we don't know why he was there. So what if he did believe it all when he was young? Can people not change? Can people not admit their wrong?
Posting this was just a cheap dig.
All respect lost for you now flemke.
It's a low dig.
Moseley, love him or hate him as done many good things for the sport. He was behind the introduction of the EuroNcap saftey tests for cars for instance. His Dad was a fascist leader (not exactly his fault was it? ) and we don't know why he was there. So what if he did believe it all when he was young? Can people not change? Can people not admit their wrong?
Posting this was just a cheap dig.
All respect lost for you now flemke.
pwig said:
Flemke, you bang out of order on this one.
It's a low dig.
Moseley, love him or hate him as done many good things for the sport. He was behind the introduction of the EuroNcap saftey tests for cars for instance. His Dad was a fascist leader (not exactly his fault was it? ) and we don't know why he was there. So what if he did believe it all when he was young? Can people not change? Can people not admit their wrong?
Posting this was just a cheap dig.
All respect lost for you now flemke.
Do what you've gotta do, my friend. It's a low dig.
Moseley, love him or hate him as done many good things for the sport. He was behind the introduction of the EuroNcap saftey tests for cars for instance. His Dad was a fascist leader (not exactly his fault was it? ) and we don't know why he was there. So what if he did believe it all when he was young? Can people not change? Can people not admit their wrong?
Posting this was just a cheap dig.
All respect lost for you now flemke.
Nobody asked the man to become a public figure - he chose that route himself. Big people should be able to take heat; it's the small ones who need defending.
(That's not meant to suggest that you shouldn't be arguing for your principle here. I'd just rather that you said that I'm being unfair or stupid than you thought than this very successful public person needed defending.)
I have criticised MM many a time here on PH/GM. On several occasions I have tried to emphasise that I was not criticising him because of the circumstances of his birth. Obviously you cannot criticise anyone for that, whether it relates to their race, religion, looks, talent or anything else.
What I do criticise him for is the way that he has behaved as an adult, especially in his running of the FIA.
None of us care in particular what he got up to when he was 22 - as I said, it's just another tile in the mosaic of one man's life.
Many of us do care, however, about how he's run the FIA, whether it's giving Bernie a 100 year exclusive contract, or letting Indy '05 implode.
With respect to Max's other hat, you mention EuroNcap. That may be a good thing overall - I don't know. Are you happy about Max's proposal to fit all the world's private cars with speed limiters?
The man's public behaviour that has been visible to me has been manipulative, petty, biased, and highly self-serving. He appears to rely heavily on his own idiosyncratic interpretation of rules that mean something quite different to the rest of the world. That has ranged from grossly distorting the technical regs by invoking "safety" whenever he wants to get his way, to changing the voting structure of the FIA to make it almost impossible for a challenger to dethrone the incumbent President.
I would expect someone who had the bad luck (but also the good luck, in terms of connections and financial inheritance) to have been born in his circumstances to make quite an effort to distance himself from the regrettable politics of his parents.
If anything, in his arrogance and manipulativeness, he instead appears to be following its example. That is the problem.
As I said, do what you gotta do. I don't like falling out with anyone, especially the good people on PH.
Perhaps we can just agree to disagree?
Anonymous 
OK, so you are carefully pointing out what we should not read into your reason for drawing our attention to Max's juvenile delinquency. Agreed it does all add to the mosaic but what are you suggesting that it adds. If your suggesting its an indication that he intends to establish the Fourth Reich by the means controlling F1 and influencing car safety development then it's an interesting theory but perhaps a step too far. If you're saying he has a tendency to enjoy power and lean toward the dictatorial, well we know that from his current behaviour.
Come on Flemke, cards on the table. What [bold]are[/bold] you trying to say about the man.
OK, so you are carefully pointing out what we should not read into your reason for drawing our attention to Max's juvenile delinquency. Agreed it does all add to the mosaic but what are you suggesting that it adds. If your suggesting its an indication that he intends to establish the Fourth Reich by the means controlling F1 and influencing car safety development then it's an interesting theory but perhaps a step too far. If you're saying he has a tendency to enjoy power and lean toward the dictatorial, well we know that from his current behaviour.
Come on Flemke, cards on the table. What [bold]are[/bold] you trying to say about the man.
jamieboy said:
flemke said:
None of us care in particular what he got up to when he was 22 - as I said, it's just another tile in the mosaic of one man's life.
Odd, then, that you should start an entire thread on the subject?
As you rightly say, we build an image of people based on their actions.
I must admit that I did not expect what I posted to be as provocative as it seems to be. Of course, I take responsibility for the consequences of what I've posted.
I don't like Mosley because he's arrogant and because he's a bully. I have much more respect for Bernie, who's a self-made man and who fights his corner in his own commercial interest - fair enough.
In contrast, Max runs a body that ought to function for the interests of motorsports participants: fans, teams, and drivers. It ought to be working in their behalf. Instead, he seems to be chiefly concerned with the interests of the FIA. He often seems intent on imposing his views on the participants, regardless of what they might want.
If they were to swap roles, and Max as the head of Formula One Marketing were to behave in exactly in the same spirit as he appears to do at the FIA, that would be fine. Commercial operators are expected to be self-interested, and caveat emptor. The supposedly neutral governing body FIA, however, has a totally different role and ought to aim for a much higher standard.
To cite perhaps the most outlandish act of Mosley's reign, it was perfectly reasonable for the commercial operator to seize with both hands the offer of a 100 year exclusive contract. It was completely unreasonable, however, for the FIA - the sport's caretaker - to offer it and thus to tie the sport to the control of a monopolist for an entire century.
Yes, Jamie, I did start the thread, but it's not exactly like I went out searching for dirt on Max. The quoted piece was on the BBC website only yesterday and forwarded to me by a friend who found it amusing, as I do. I thought that a number of regular participants of GM would find it amusing too.
With regard to your comment, "...we build an image of people based on their actions" - that is a nice one. Touche'.
rustybin said:
Come on Flemke, cards on the table. What [bold]are[/bold] you trying to say about the man.
I'm trying to say perhaps less than meets the eye. As I replied to Jamie, above, I thought that this BBC piece was amusing. To be honest, I was a bit surprised that no one else had posted it here already.
I also replied to Jamie what I generally think about MM, so there's no need to bore you by my repeating it.
I am bound to say that, although we all may have committed youthful indiscretions at 22, I don't think that many of us went to the sort of event that was mentioned in the article (except perhaps to protest it).
After you've been an 'adult' for four years, and particularly if you're studying to be a barrister, and particularly particularly if you're as clever as Max is, you're not so naive as to have no idea of what such a rally would represent, to yourself and your own self-respect if not to the outside world.
(You'll recall the furore not long ago when that Harry kid wore a certain uniform to some party and he was overwhelmingly criticised for his poor judgment - at the age of 18, and even allowing for the fact that the kid's as thick as two short planks.)
It is absolutely true that one doesn't know exactly what would have motivated MM to go to the event.
I just found this tiny story interesting and - to my mind if to no one else's - entirely believable.
(Btw, my present inclinations on this subject are probably intensified by an anecdote that a former colleague of MM's told me last week. Perhaps I should cool off a bit.)
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