Discussion
taffyracer said:
p490kvp said:
Tight wad!!!! Seriously though if you are going to do some proper testing use new tyres - you won't know what used ones have done and therefore will not know the starting point of their performance...
Just skint and only have used 17's now to compare with which would mean 2 new sets of tyres and huge expense just for 1 test day, especially if its raining, anyone have anything remotely decent that I could buy?
If you think you are skint now, wait till you get back from hols.
Your M3 has just dropped a valve
It's a case of looking at the bigger picture, Dunlop at least put a fair amount of commitment into many levels of racing, car, bike and what have you, and their development is better then most, and IMHO, the charges they make are reasonable on an overall basis.
Try working with other tyre manufactures and I for one would be fitting Dunlops whenever I could
This is not an advert for them, I pay the same price as everyone else, but after many years of testing and racing, I know what I like in terms of performance, safety and cost.
That's my £190 per corner worth
Try working with other tyre manufactures and I for one would be fitting Dunlops whenever I could
This is not an advert for them, I pay the same price as everyone else, but after many years of testing and racing, I know what I like in terms of performance, safety and cost.
That's my £190 per corner worth
Racing Rod said:
It's a case of looking at the bigger picture, Dunlop at least put a fair amount of commitment into many levels of racing, car, bike and what have you, and their development is better then most, and IMHO, the charges they make are reasonable on an overall basis.
Rod the bigger picture is leave the tyre choice free and then people can choose for themselves. Regardless of brand when you are forced to take a single brand of tyre, pay full market rate for it and then have tyre issues people are going to feel hard done by.
In most multi brand formula Dunlop are usually nowhere and anyone wanting to win will (if they can) take a Michelin. The cost is irrelevant until you are forced to take a particular tyre brand.
p490kvp said:
Racing Rod said:
It's a case of looking at the bigger picture, Dunlop at least put a fair amount of commitment into many levels of racing, car, bike and what have you, and their development is better then most, and IMHO, the charges they make are reasonable on an overall basis.
Rod the bigger picture is leave the tyre choice free and then people can choose for themselves. Regardless of brand when you are forced to take a single brand of tyre, pay full market rate for it and then have tyre issues people are going to feel hard done by.
In most multi brand formula Dunlop are usually nowhere and anyone wanting to win will (if they can) take a Michelin. The cost is irrelevant until you are forced to take a particular tyre brand.
I do take your point, for in an ideal world I too would be on Michelins, particularly for my car, but it's unlikely ever to work on a free choice basis. If it ever did then I'm sure adjustments would be made elsewhere to make up the series owners/co-ordinators budgets.
That's assuming we are all correct in thinking that there is an advantage, financial or otherwise to the club/series owners/co-ordinators in a single tyre supplier.
Just as an aside, if we did have free choice and it was properly supported by each tyre manufacture, and that's a big "IF", half the paddock would be taken up with their trucks if indeed it was worthwhile for them all to attend
Your point is well made, but with respect, I must disagree for the reasons given above
15 all
your service, 
Ha ha - like it (15 all, etc!) - My gripe about the single tyre supply is one of performance. Not in the sence that alternatives are X secs a lap faster or slower but because tyres to fit rims less than 18in are not suitable and wear out!
If the series is getting money for the single tyre contract good luck to them - the financials are not my business - I just wish sometimes heads would come out to the sand every now and then.
A free tyre choice would solve all for the competitor as he would be welcome to go where he likes and if there was no service track side then perhaps that would reflect in their custom? I'm not saying selling race tyres is easy but there is obviously enough profit in them for some to make that their sole business activity.
If the series is getting money for the single tyre contract good luck to them - the financials are not my business - I just wish sometimes heads would come out to the sand every now and then.
A free tyre choice would solve all for the competitor as he would be welcome to go where he likes and if there was no service track side then perhaps that would reflect in their custom? I'm not saying selling race tyres is easy but there is obviously enough profit in them for some to make that their sole business activity.
Again, I'm not at all sure that the cost we pay for race tyre's reflects a massive profit for them, the development costs alone are staggering, add to this all the support etc and they may well make a reasonable margin, but I doubt it's outrageous.
Most of them support racing as a way of promoting the road car product, as they sell millions of these against a fairly small number of race tyres, having said that, racing also gives them the chance to improve and upgrade tyre technology whilst having some income from us lot to help with development costs.
Road tyres are all sold at a decent profit so from their point of view, racing is a means to an end, like a big advert combined with say a partly funded development centre
30 all, new balls please
Most of them support racing as a way of promoting the road car product, as they sell millions of these against a fairly small number of race tyres, having said that, racing also gives them the chance to improve and upgrade tyre technology whilst having some income from us lot to help with development costs.
Road tyres are all sold at a decent profit so from their point of view, racing is a means to an end, like a big advert combined with say a partly funded development centre
30 all, new balls please
p490kvp said:
Ha ha - like it (15 all, etc!) - My gripe about the single tyre supply is one of performance. Not in the sence that alternatives are X secs a lap faster or slower but because tyres to fit rims less than 18in are not suitable and wear out!
If the series is getting money for the single tyre contract good luck to them - the financials are not my business - I just wish sometimes heads would come out to the sand every now and then.
A free tyre choice would solve all for the competitor as he would be welcome to go where he likes and if there was no service track side then perhaps that would reflect in their custom? I'm not saying selling race tyres is easy but there is obviously enough profit in them for some to make that their sole business activity.
If the series is getting money for the single tyre contract good luck to them - the financials are not my business - I just wish sometimes heads would come out to the sand every now and then.
A free tyre choice would solve all for the competitor as he would be welcome to go where he likes and if there was no service track side then perhaps that would reflect in their custom? I'm not saying selling race tyres is easy but there is obviously enough profit in them for some to make that their sole business activity.
From our experience (and Geoff Steel's I believe from a conversation ages ago). On an M3 the 17s last 2 hours and the 18s last 4+ hours. The 18s are also faster than the 17s. So basically when we had bitten the bullit and bought 20 odd new rims it was a no brainer to use 18s. I'm not sure we even noticed there was a price difference (not even sure there was?) in comparison to the overall seasons budget.
Just for the record Carlos Fandango was not invlolved in our car last season.
Paul
I have spoken to the EERC and we are stuck with Dunlops. Unsuprisingly, Dunlop contribute to the club and thats that!
I had many issues with Dunlops last year, spent over £16k with them, excluding the 24 hours, and I would love an open formula. Sadly, it just isn't going to happen.
If we all want an open tyre formula I suggest we keep the pressure on the club and maybe, just maybe things will change next year. However, the club will have to make up the funds shortfall somehow! It will come from our pockets in some way no doubt!
Cheers,
Richard.
I had many issues with Dunlops last year, spent over £16k with them, excluding the 24 hours, and I would love an open formula. Sadly, it just isn't going to happen.
If we all want an open tyre formula I suggest we keep the pressure on the club and maybe, just maybe things will change next year. However, the club will have to make up the funds shortfall somehow! It will come from our pockets in some way no doubt!
Cheers,
Richard.
935 said:
If we all want an open tyre formula I suggest we keep the pressure on the club and maybe, just maybe things will change next year. However, the club will have to make up the funds shortfall somehow! It will come from our pockets in some way no doubt!
Cheers,
Richard.
I agree, it wouldn't be a cost saving as other costs would go up to cover the loss of the "donation" from the tyre suppliers. Yes, you would have the right to choose a different tyre, but with everyone on different tyres what would the support be like? On balance, I would stick to one tyre supplier that suited the majority of teams and be able to rely on proper support. Last season we were in BGT, we had real issues with tyres but I have to admit, the tyre company concerned did their level best to help solve the problems. My only beef was that if we had run on Dunlops for instance, based on previous experience, our tyres would have lasted a hell of a lot longer with more consistently and we could have been within our original tyre budget, as it was we spent double the estimated budgeted cost, not good.
p490kvp said:
The problem is this....
Dunlop only make a tyre suitable for endurance racing in a GT or LMP size - which is currently a rim size bigger than 18 inches.
The Dunlop tyres that are available for smaller rims are from their Saloon or Touring car range - and as those races are of a sprint format those tyres are not suitable for the purposes we put them to.
In the 24hr race the Civic was totally destroying the fronts in 80 mins, which made our fuel allowance irrelevant.
Dunlop only make a tyre suitable for endurance racing in a GT or LMP size - which is currently a rim size bigger than 18 inches.
The Dunlop tyres that are available for smaller rims are from their Saloon or Touring car range - and as those races are of a sprint format those tyres are not suitable for the purposes we put them to.
In the 24hr race the Civic was totally destroying the fronts in 80 mins, which made our fuel allowance irrelevant.
That is the problem - so if you run a GT size rim then you are at an advantage to those that can't. There will be a further problem in 2007 in that those "saloon" tyres will be pushed very hard at Thruxton and Combe and tyre failure there isn't funny.
When a club takes money for the provision of a service then that service needs to be good for all - not some.
Paul Dishman said:
Phil-you ought to talk to JT about this subject
cheers
Paul
cheers
Paul
Or approach Dunlop. If there are so many cars on smaller wheels it's not going to take too much effort for Dunlop to come up with a tyre for you. The sizes and moulds are there, you just need a different compound. Do you find the construction okay? That's the relatively tricky bit.
Dunlop have produced a number of random compounds and constructions for me and others like me over the years - we've had Mosler-specific tyres, LNT had TVR-only tyres and in both instances we're talking about only a couple of cars.
I really think that if you get together with the other teams on little wheels and inform Dunlop (not HP, obviously) then they'll make you a tyre very quickly once they understand the economies of scale involved.
Bit of a shame regarding the comment about Dunlops internationally by the way, Phil. Virgo were very fast this year in LMS, for example, and Rollcentre were very quick also on their Dunlops - and Martin must be pretty pleased with the product to have become a technical partner with them on his Pesca project.
ahonen said:
Paul Dishman said:
Phil-you ought to talk to JT about this subject
cheers
Paul
cheers
Paul
Bit of a shame regarding the comment about Dunlops internationally by the way, Phil. Virgo were very fast this year in LMS, for example, and Rollcentre were very quick also on their Dunlops - and Martin must be pretty pleased with the product to have become a technical partner with them on his Pesca project.
I think Martin is pretty pleased to have reduced his budget in one area. Martin/Rollcentre do an amazing job really given their resources but his effort is never one purely based upon performance. Throughout the LMS season and at Le Mans there is always something that compromises the effort - either the pay driver, perhaps tyres or even the lack of a testing program.
Regardless I don't want to get into a debate on how Rollcentre run their effort - this is about tyres and the tyres we use are terrible and if we didn't have to use this brand then we wouldn't.
Phil said:
"this is about tyres and the tyres we use are terrible and if we didn't have to use this brand then we wouldn't."
I absolutely agree!!! I lost count of the number of catastrophic tyre failures last year and Dunlop only wanted to blame us! Eventually, they came up with a tyre that lasted but was made from concrete! Of course, we paid for everything.
I understand the point about tyre support at the circuit. I dont have an answer to it but I for one would be prepared to find a way around it if the tyres were open. As I said before though, it won't happen - unfortunately!!!.
Richard.
"this is about tyres and the tyres we use are terrible and if we didn't have to use this brand then we wouldn't."
I absolutely agree!!! I lost count of the number of catastrophic tyre failures last year and Dunlop only wanted to blame us! Eventually, they came up with a tyre that lasted but was made from concrete! Of course, we paid for everything.
I understand the point about tyre support at the circuit. I dont have an answer to it but I for one would be prepared to find a way around it if the tyres were open. As I said before though, it won't happen - unfortunately!!!.
Richard.
phatgixer said:
[quote=taffyracer][quote=p490kvp]
If you think you are skint now, wait till you get back from hols.
Your M3 has just dropped a valve
If you think you are skint now, wait till you get back from hols.
Your M3 has just dropped a valve
Cheers for the words of support Angus
! Gutted, just had a full rebuild as well! Starting to think i'd be better off hiring a drive! Edited by taffyracer on Saturday 27th January 20:48
Edited by taffyracer on Sunday 28th January 14:53
scuffers said:
Calorus said:
Why not approach someone like Kumho or Hankook. I spoke to them at Autosport International, and both suggested that they were interested in raising their UK sporting crednentials. And the nature of the companies means they're more like to be more flexible and invest more heavily.
with all due...
unless they are going to commit LARGE summs of money to tyre development and testing, that's just pointless.
I would suggest that for evert type of car on the grid, it would take the best part of 3-4 months to develop a tyre to work with it....(and that assumes 100% commitment etc)
Is this not an example of taking nothing rather than something? I mean, as it stands you've all got tyres which aren't bespoke to the cars, and which aren't even performance balanced across the size ranges. Wouldn't it be a huge improvement to at least have a full size range of endurance tyres and then set the cars up to use the tyres, as they do in every other control tyre championship?
Calorus said:
scuffers said:
Calorus said:
Why not approach someone like Kumho or Hankook. I spoke to them at Autosport International, and both suggested that they were interested in raising their UK sporting crednentials. And the nature of the companies means they're more like to be more flexible and invest more heavily.
with all due...
unless they are going to commit LARGE summs of money to tyre development and testing, that's just pointless.
I would suggest that for every type of car on the grid, it would take the best part of 3-4 months to develop a tyre to work with it....(and that assumes 100% commitment etc)
Is this not an example of taking nothing rather than something? I mean, as it stands you've all got tyres which aren't bespoke to the cars, and which aren't even performance balanced across the size ranges. Wouldn't it be a huge improvement to at least have a full size range of endurance tyres and then set the cars up to use the tyres, as they do in every other control tyre championship?
If I understand what you are saying, then no.
just take the typical Britcar grid:
Porsche 935
Mosler MT900R
Opel V8 Star
BMW M3 E36
Porsche 996 GT3
Ferrari 360 Challenge
Marcos Mantis
BMW M3 E36
Ferrari 355 Challenge
Lotus Exige 2
Lotus Elise 1
BMW Mini 53
Peugeot 406 Coupe
Dodge Viper
the list goes on...
now, this means you have to have tyres from 15" though to 18" (and 19"??)
and then you have issues that just because two (or more) cars share the same tyre physical sizes, the construction requirements are nothing like the same - for example, the Elise front us a 15", only tyre Dunlop have for it is designed for a radical, and it's construction is just hopeless for the Elise)
the reality of the situation is, no manufacture can justify making the right tyre for every car on the grid (just look at the trouble Avon have had in GT with a limited field of car types), even between on the face of it, the same 911’s they have different requirements.
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