Is this the end for Kimi?

[freedman]

mchammer89 said:

freedman said:

loneranger said:

FourWheelDrift said:

I haven't seen Kimi's name at the top of the apex speed charts the circuits are recording this year.

Which means precisely zero.

A corner is not sitting there in splendid isolation. It is at the end of one straight and the beginning of another. So drivers corner in a way that allows them to get the power down earlier to make the whole ensuing straight faster. Kimi is neutral through the bends with all four tyres loaded, if he chooses to sacrifice apex speed in order to get power down sooner then that is up to him.

More significant is that Kimi has 21 fastest race laps in his career. More than any one else currently in F1. For comparison Alonso has just 10. Fisichella has 2 in a far longer career and Hamilton has just one, a lower success percentage than Kimi despite Lewis having the fastest car on the track for most races this season.

Fastest race lap = 0 points

They mean nothing at all, if they carried points Schumacher or Senna would be atop the list, the fact that they are not is proof enough.

The point he is making is that he is the fastest driver, why are you bringing up championship points? In my opinion (the ratio of) fastest laps are the best way to determine fastest driver which loneranger has done and I think he's proved his point.

Fastest laps are NOT the best way to deduce the fastest driver, why anyone would think that I have no idea. If there was any benefit to posting fastest lap Senna or Schumacher would have dozens more fastest laps than they do.

Or are you suggesting Kimi is quicker than either of them?

[Heebeegeetee]

AKA8 said:

I reckon those people who have written Kimi off will eat their words

Its not so much that I've written him off, its that I'm still waiting to be impressed for more than one lap.

Good to see Ferrari back up there though, and hope they can give McLaren a race.

loneranger said:

Because this isn't a specialist F1 forum there are a lot of people on here who mouth off without having the faintest idea what they are talking about.

What, you mean some of us might watch racing other than F1? Not sure how only watching one discipline makes you an expert. I've given up on the F1 board at ten tenths, 'cos they clearly only follow F1 and don't seem to have a clue.

(Been an avid fan of F1 since the mid seventies, btw.)

Edited by Heebeegeetee on Friday 29th June 20:12

[FourWheelDrift]

loneranger said:

FourWheelDrift said:

I haven't seen Kimi's name at the top of the apex speed charts the circuits are recording this year.

Which means precisely zero.

A corner is not sitting there in splendid isolation. It is at the end of one straight and the beginning of another. So drivers corner in a way that allows them to get the power down earlier to make the whole ensuing straight faster. Kimi is neutral through the bends with all four tyres loaded, if he chooses to sacrifice apex speed in order to get power down sooner then that is up to him.

Sacrificing apex speed to get the power down sooner? If you get the power down early you are on the throttle and powering through the apex of the corner as you should be if you want to be fast down the next straight. You said he carried more corner speed, make your mind up.

Oh and there are many people on here who know a damn sight more about motor racing than I'm sure you do (current racing drivers, members of current racing teams) and frankly for you to say:-

loneranger said:

"Because this isn't a specialist F1 forum there are a lot of people on here who mouth off without having the faintest idea what they are talking about. At least by informing people a little more they might end up getting a bit of education."

This just makes you sound like a pompous arrogant arse.

Edited by FourWheelDrift on Friday 29th June 20:22

[freedman]

[quote=FourWheelDrift

This just makes you sound like a pompous arrogant arse.

Edited by FourWheelDrift on Friday 29th June 20:22

[/quote]

I believe I posted something very similar previously

[loneranger]

freedman said:

loneranger said:

FourWheelDrift said:

I haven't seen Kimi's name at the top of the apex speed charts the circuits are recording this year.

Which means precisely zero.

A corner is not sitting there in splendid isolation. It is at the end of one straight and the beginning of another. So drivers corner in a way that allows them to get the power down earlier to make the whole ensuing straight faster. Kimi is neutral through the bends with all four tyres loaded, if he chooses to sacrifice apex speed in order to get power down sooner then that is up to him.

More significant is that Kimi has 21 fastest race laps in his career. More than any one else currently in F1. For comparison Alonso has just 10. Fisichella has 2 in a far longer career and Hamilton has just one, a lower success percentage than Kimi despite Lewis having the fastest car on the track for most races this season.

Fastest race lap = 0 points

They mean nothing at all, if they carried points Schumacher or Senna would be atop the list, the fact that they are not is proof enough.

Shows how much you know.
Senna, in his long career, had less fastest laps than Kimi already has.
And Kimi was up against MS and Alonso when he was getting those fastest laps.

Please look at the facts before you post.

Edited by loneranger on Friday 29th June 21:56

[Mojocvh]

loneranger said:

freedman said:

loneranger said:

FourWheelDrift said:

I haven't seen Kimi's name at the top of the apex speed charts the circuits are recording this year.

Which means precisely zero.

A corner is not sitting there in splendid isolation. It is at the end of one straight and the beginning of another. So drivers corner in a way that allows them to get the power down earlier to make the whole ensuing straight faster. Kimi is neutral through the bends with all four tyres loaded, if he chooses to sacrifice apex speed in order to get power down sooner then that is up to him.

More significant is that Kimi has 21 fastest race laps in his career. More than any one else currently in F1. For comparison Alonso has just 10. Fisichella has 2 in a far longer career and Hamilton has just one, a lower success percentage than Kimi despite Lewis having the fastest car on the track for most races this season.

Fastest race lap = 0 points

They mean nothing at all, if they carried points Schumacher or Senna would be atop the list, the fact that they are not is proof enough.

Shows how much you know.
Senna, in his long career, had less fastest laps then Kimi already has.
And Kimi was up against MS and Alonso when he was getting those fastest laps.

Please look at the facts before you post.

If you want to start throwing facts at posters it might be advisable to show proof of those facts.

[loneranger]

Mojocvh said:

If you want to start throwing facts at posters it might be advisable to show proof of those facts.

http://www.google.co.uk/

[freedman]

loneranger said:

freedman said:

loneranger said:

FourWheelDrift said:

I haven't seen Kimi's name at the top of the apex speed charts the circuits are recording this year.

Which means precisely zero.

A corner is not sitting there in splendid isolation. It is at the end of one straight and the beginning of another. So drivers corner in a way that allows them to get the power down earlier to make the whole ensuing straight faster. Kimi is neutral through the bends with all four tyres loaded, if he chooses to sacrifice apex speed in order to get power down sooner then that is up to him.

More significant is that Kimi has 21 fastest race laps in his career. More than any one else currently in F1. For comparison Alonso has just 10. Fisichella has 2 in a far longer career and Hamilton has just one, a lower success percentage than Kimi despite Lewis having the fastest car on the track for most races this season.

Fastest race lap = 0 points

They mean nothing at all, if they carried points Schumacher or Senna would be atop the list, the fact that they are not is proof enough.

Shows how much you know.
Senna, in his long career, had less fastest laps then Kimi already has.
And Kimi was up against MS and Alonso when he was getting those fastest laps.

Please look at the facts before you post.

If you wish to be seen as some sort of authority on issues pehaps you shold actually READ what people post, instead of attempting to suggest you are some kind of walking F1 genius (which you clearly are not.

I said that, IF fastest laps, HAD carried a points reward , then Senna and Schumacher WOULD have topped the list.

Its plain English and doesnt take any great deal of comprehension, but perhaps you're stuck too far up your own arse to read properly

Edited by freedman on Friday 29th June 21:58

[loneranger]

http://www.grandprixstats.com/en/drivers/stats/frl...

1 Schumacher, Michael 76
2 Prost, Alain 41
3 Mansell, Nigel 30
4 Clark, Jim 28
5 Häkkinen, Mika 25
6 Lauda, Niki 24
7 Fangio, Juan Manuel 23
= Piquet, Nelson 23
9 Berger, Gerhard 21
= Räikkönen, Kimi 21
11 Hill, Damon 19
= Moss, Stirling 19
= Senna, Ayrton 19
14 Coulthard, David 18
15 Barrichello, Rubens 15
= Stewart, Jackie 15
= Regazzoni, Clay 15
18 Patrese, Riccardo 14
= Ickx, Jacky 14
20 Ascari, Alberto 13
= Jones, Alan 13
22 Montoya, Juan Pablo 12
= Brabham, Jack 12
= Arnoux, René 12
25 Surtees, John 11
26 Andretti, Mario 10
= Hill, Graham 10
= Alonso, Fernando 10
29 Peterson, Ronnie 9
= Hulme, Denny 9
= Villeneuve, Jacques 9
32 Schumacher, Ralf 8
= Villeneuve, Gilles 8
= Hunt, James 8
35 Gurney, Dan 6
= Fittipaldi, Emerson 6
= Hawthorn, Mike 6
= Gonzalez, Jose Froilan 6
= Frentzen, Heinz-Harald 6
= Laffite, Jacques 6
= Hill, Phil 6
42 Watson, John 5
= Pace, Carlos 5
= Alboreto, Michele 5
= Farina, Nino 5
= Pironi, Didier 5
= Scheckter, Jody 5
= Reutemann, Carlos 5
49 Siffert, Jo 4
= Depailler, Patrick 4
= Alesi, Jean 4
= Beltoise, Jean-Pierre 4
= Massa, Felipe 4
54 Amon, Chris 3
= Ginther, Richie 3
= Rindt, Jochen 3
= Vukovich, Bill 3
= McLaren, Bruce 3
= Brooks, Tony 3
= Jarier, Jean-Pierre 3
= Rosberg, Keke 3
62 Bandini, Lorenzo 2
= Fabi, Teo 2
= Mass, Jochen 2
= Warwick, Derek 2
= Cevert, Francois 2
= Rathmann, Jim 2
= Tambay, Patrick 2
= Nannini, Alessandro 2
= Fisichella, Giancarlo 2
71 Herrmann, Hans 1
= de Cesaris, Andrea 1
= Hasemi, Masahiro 1
= Parsons, Johnnie 1
= Oliver, Jackie 1
= Russo, Paul 1
= Villoresi, Luigi 1
= Ireland, Innes 1
= Nakajima, Satoru 1
= Trintignant, Maurice 1
= Moreno, Roberto 1
= Rosberg, Nico 1
= McGrath, Jack 1
= Attwood, Richard 1
= de la Rosa, Pedro 1
= Hailwood, Mike 1
= Kling, Karl 1
= Scarfiotti, Ludovico 1
= Brambilla, Vittorio 1
= Irvine, Eddie 1
= Rodriguez, Pedro 1
= Bettenhausen Sr., Tony 1
= Taruffi, Piero 1
= Hamilton, Lewis 1
= Behra, Jean 1
= Surer, Marc 1
= Baghetti, Giancarlo 1
= Henton, Brian 1
= Marimon, Onofre 1
= Pescarolo, Henri 1
= Wurz, Alexander 1
= Palmer, Jonathan 1
= Wallard, Lee 1
= Gugelmin, Mauricio 1
= Nilsson, Gunnar 1
= Boutsen, Thierry 1
= Gachot, Bertrand 1
= Musso, Luigi 1
= Thomson, Johnny 1
= Mieres, Roberto 1

[loneranger]

freedman said:

but perhaps you're stuck too far up your own arse to read properly.

[freedman]

loneranger said:

freedman said:

but perhaps you're stuck too far up your own arse to read properly.

]

So you really cant read properly then.

No surpise I guess

Arrogant and offensive, what agreat contribution you make.

[Heebeegeetee]

Gone quiet here, hasn't it?

Still, perhaps he'll turn it around tomorrow.

[Fidgits]

loneranger said:

freedman said:

but perhaps you're stuck too far up your own arse to read properly.

pot. kettle. black.


as for it being quiet - as I said in the F1 thread, im glad to see the ferrari's on form - and Massa did a good job.

So, hopefully tomorrow we will see what Kimi's capable of - I just hope it isnt a repeat of the start of the season (where he won, then it all went downhill rather fast)

[jacobyte]

loneranger said:

freedman said:

loneranger said:

Kimi has 21 fastest race laps in his career. More than any one else currently in F1.

Fastest race lap = 0 points

They mean nothing at all, if they carried points Schumacher or Senna would be atop the list, the fact that they are not is proof enough.

Shows how much you know.
Senna, in his long career, had less fastest laps than Kimi already has.
And Kimi was up against MS and Alonso when he was getting those fastest laps.

...which shows how irrelevant fastest laps are, thereby sinking your own argument.

Never has Lauda's statement been more appropriate: "The secret is to win going as slowly as possible". This is a proven formula. Kimi should take note.

[Heebeegeetee]

jacobyte said:

Never has Lauda's statement been more appropriate: "The secret is to win going as slowly as possible". This is a proven formula. Kimi should take note.

It goes back further than that, I think it might have been Fangio who said you should aim to win at the slowest possible speed, although I dare say there were some applying that well before Fangios time.

To have so many fastest laps and not much to show for it is a bit of an embarrasment, imo. How come Alonso won 2 championships in the Schumacher era whilst Kimi was banging in so many fastest laps?

[Fidgits]

Heebeegeetee said:

jacobyte said:

Never has Lauda's statement been more appropriate: "The secret is to win going as slowly as possible". This is a proven formula. Kimi should take note.

It goes back further than that, I think it might have been Fangio who said you should aim to win at the slowest possible speed, although I dare say there were some applying that well before Fangios time.

To have so many fastest laps and not much to show for it is a bit of an embarrasment, imo. How come Alonso won 2 championships in the Schumacher era whilst Kimi was banging in so many fastest laps?

But I think this comes down to the majority (and ill informed dont-know-anythings-so-shut-up according to loneranger) opinions that on the right day with the right conditions Kimi can be really fast, but over the course of a season, he lacks the consistancy to be a champion...

Though, as someone else pointed out, he did apparantly come close in 2003 - was that a fluke? Has he lost the edge? Or is is really all down to just that much bad luck?

[loneranger]

Heebeegeetee said:

Gone quiet here, hasn't it?

I was at Shelsley Walsh today: http://www.shelsley-walsh.co.uk/

Kimi did well.
As explained eslewhere it is the package that wins/gets poles etc.
The driver is a small part of this package.
Massa and Hamilton are better established with their teams than their respective team mates. So they are better able to get all the various elements of the package working for them. At the moment.

This was MSs supreme skill. He made sure that every single element of the package was as near to perfect as possible.

[Fidgits]

to be honest, i'd put it more down to fuel loads to why massa was ahead of kimi... though I do rate him higher, but thats just a personal POV.

[StevenJJ]

[Fidgits]

Just thinking aloud (so loneranger, hold back on the six-shooters), but based on Kimi's performance this season... it seems when he has the fastest (or best) car underneath him, he really does excel, but the moment it appears to be somewhat of a struggle to make the car go fast, he really does fall back, unlike the likes of Schumacher, Alonso etc...

I think this is shown by the first race he won (when the Ferraris had the advantage) and today (again they have leap frogged the Mclarens) where he really pulled ahead, yet mid season Massa really showed him up?

Strange no?