Hamilton getting too big headed
Discussion
What infuriates me is that people appear surprised in any way at all. For the first season in such a long time, 2 drivers in a team have the opportunity to win the world championship. Why are people surprised by what's going on?
These are racing drivers, not two shoppers in Asda offering each other the opportunity to enter the isle first. They both think they're better than one another and they'll both get p*ssed off when the other does better than they. Big deal.
Hamilton has gone through the majority of his career at the front of whichever series he's been in. If he views the people at the back of the grid with less than glowing descriptions, it's probably because he's spent too little of his career back there to empathise. He's not there to make them feel better about themselves, he's there to make them wish they hadn't even turned up. The same goes for his team mate.
If, as it happens, he comes across as a bit cocky, so what? I'd rather him be cocky and become World Champion than be a gentleman, win one lucky race in the wet after more than a 100 starts and hope we (the British Public) remain forever grateful. B*llocks to that.
These are racing drivers, not two shoppers in Asda offering each other the opportunity to enter the isle first. They both think they're better than one another and they'll both get p*ssed off when the other does better than they. Big deal.
Hamilton has gone through the majority of his career at the front of whichever series he's been in. If he views the people at the back of the grid with less than glowing descriptions, it's probably because he's spent too little of his career back there to empathise. He's not there to make them feel better about themselves, he's there to make them wish they hadn't even turned up. The same goes for his team mate.
If, as it happens, he comes across as a bit cocky, so what? I'd rather him be cocky and become World Champion than be a gentleman, win one lucky race in the wet after more than a 100 starts and hope we (the British Public) remain forever grateful. B*llocks to that.
johnfelstead said:
. Ron also made a silly mistake in alowing Hamiliton to exit his pit garage first to queue up, he shouldnt have allowed that situation to have any oportunity to evolve, Alonso should have been released first. If his car wasnt ready due to the engineers on his car not warming it up soon enough, the running order should have changed for Q3.
Except by then had they not committed themselves to fuel loads, which could only be optimised by Alonso's getting ahead?As to why they wouldn't have started Alonso's engine first to allow for that, it was my, perhaps mistaken, understanding that the difference in engine warm-up times would normally be so slight that they could be allowed for simply by having one driver overtake the other on the out lap, which you would expect to happen half the time, and normally would happen quite readily so long as the lead driver acts like a grown-up.Not that it really matters but from what I understand, it wasnt a case of Mclaren warming up engines, it was a case of cooling them down. When they come in from Q2 they have to cool the engines down to a certain level before they can then fire them up again and send them to sit in the pitlane waiting for Q3, otherwise they may overheat. I guess because Lewis finished his Q2 run earlier than Alonso, his car had more time to cool down so could be sent to the front of the pitlane earlier than Alonso's.
LocoBlade said:
Not that it really matters but from what I understand, it wasnt a case of Mclaren warming up engines, it was a case of cooling them down. When they come in from Q2 they have to cool the engines down to a certain level before they can then fire them up again and send them to sit in the pitlane waiting for Q3, otherwise they may overheat. I guess because Lewis finished his Q2 run earlier than Alonso, his car had more time to cool down so could be sent to the front of the pitlane earlier than Alonso's.
You may well be right (which is more likely than I would be), but what Dennis said was:Ron said:
"We have various procedures within the team, and prior to practice we determine how it is going to be run, what our strategy is, and how that's going to be enacted on the circuit," Dennis said.
"There are some procedural issues there on qualifying. One of the things that you'll have seen several times over the course of this season is long periods of time where the car has gone down to the end of pitlane and sat for a long time.
"In this situation, we are timed to when we can dispatch the car based on when the car reaches a given temperature, and then we know how long we can hold it at the pitlane.
"The cars are dispatched as soon as possible. In this instance, Lewis's car got up to that temperature first, so we sent Lewis, then we sent Fernando, and the fuel burn characteristics [mean that] there is a small advantage which we play from driver to driver according to the nature of the circuit.
"In this instance, it was Fernando's time to get the advantage of the longer fuel burn. The arrangement was, OK, we're down at the end of the pitlane, we reverse positions in the first lap.
"That didn't occur as arranged. That was somewhat disappointing and caused some tensions on the pitwall.
"We were, from that moment on, out of sequence because the cars were in the wrong place on the circuit and that unfolded into the pitstops."
But perhaps what you meant is that before it could be fired up again, first it had to cool down, and the cool down delay caused the re-warming delay."There are some procedural issues there on qualifying. One of the things that you'll have seen several times over the course of this season is long periods of time where the car has gone down to the end of pitlane and sat for a long time.
"In this situation, we are timed to when we can dispatch the car based on when the car reaches a given temperature, and then we know how long we can hold it at the pitlane.
"The cars are dispatched as soon as possible. In this instance, Lewis's car got up to that temperature first, so we sent Lewis, then we sent Fernando, and the fuel burn characteristics [mean that] there is a small advantage which we play from driver to driver according to the nature of the circuit.
"In this instance, it was Fernando's time to get the advantage of the longer fuel burn. The arrangement was, OK, we're down at the end of the pitlane, we reverse positions in the first lap.
"That didn't occur as arranged. That was somewhat disappointing and caused some tensions on the pitwall.
"We were, from that moment on, out of sequence because the cars were in the wrong place on the circuit and that unfolded into the pitstops."
As you say, it doesn't really matter.
Cheers.
johnfelstead said:
Considering the fact the McLaren engines can idle for ever without overheating, it doesnt matter if Lewis's engine was up to temp first, they could have still held him in the pits until Alonso's was ready to roll and sent him into the pitlane first.
John, do you mean to suggest that Hamilton deliberately set off from the garage first in order to secure the advantage for himself?
I think this stuff about warming up engines is wrong. That's what Ron is reported to have said but it's been missreported. In Post quali. press conf. Hammie said engineers had done a good job in cooling engine down. Allowing him to get out first. makes much more sense having just done Q2 and expecting to sit in pit lane.
Makes me think this might have been a battle between different sides of the garage rather than different drivers.
Makes me think this might have been a battle between different sides of the garage rather than different drivers.
flemke said:
johnfelstead said:
Considering the fact the McLaren engines can idle for ever without overheating, it doesnt matter if Lewis's engine was up to temp first, they could have still held him in the pits until Alonso's was ready to roll and sent him into the pitlane first.
John, do you mean to suggest that Hamilton deliberately set off from the garage first in order to secure the advantage for himself?The drivers leave their pit garage when the team drops it from the jacks, removes the tyre warmers and the race engineer for the car releases the driver. The driver doesnt have control over that procedure, Ron could easily instruct the race engineer to hold the car. I sugest he will do just that from now on to prevent what happened in hungary, if he doesnt he is an idiot.
johnfelstead said:
flemke said:
johnfelstead said:
Considering the fact the McLaren engines can idle for ever without overheating, it doesnt matter if Lewis's engine was up to temp first, they could have still held him in the pits until Alonso's was ready to roll and sent him into the pitlane first.
John, do you mean to suggest that Hamilton deliberately set off from the garage first in order to secure the advantage for himself?The drivers leave their pit garage when the team drops it from the jacks, removes the tyre warmers and the race engineer for the car releases the driver. The driver doesnt have control over that procedure, Ron could easily instruct the race engineer to hold the car. I sugest he will do just that from now on to prevent what happened in hungary, if he doesnt he is an idiot.
RossiT said:
As a rookie or world champ if you get an order over the radio to do something just do as your told, it pi##es me off that he thinks he's above Ron Dennis and the engineers in making these decisions.
so if the order does not make sense in a competitive context or would put you at a serious disadvantage would you honestly do it?!? if every driver did that they may as well decide the result in the paddock before the start and just turn it into the american wrestling style events, lots of show but a predetermined result. Its a wonder how people like Jackie Stewart can actually watch F1 these days....
RossiT said:
As a rookie or world champ if you get an order over the radio to do something just do as your told, it pi##es me off that he thinks he's above Ron Dennis and the engineers in making these decisions.
Your putting a great deal more thought into this than I imagine Hamilton did at the time, he had an order from Ron and I imagine instincts took over that he thought Kimi would pass so he did not do it. I very much doubt his thought process ever went near the lines of 'He is above Ron' and much more along the lines of I won't let Kimi passed as a result it affected Alonso.
What's interesting is that when Lewis does/says something out of line there are those who say he's being arrogant or aggresive, yet when Alonso does/says something out of line the same people call him childish and tell him to grow up!!
Both drivers are very competitive, McLaren is a team that does its best to give both drivers equal footing. Both want to win, and at times it would appear they both want to win at all costs to their team mate. This is fantastic for the sport, the only thing that I could not understand at the weekend was the Alonso penalty.
He pissed off his own team mate - so what? Fine, if he had effected another driver in a different team, then by all means penalise him, but not when it is your own team mate. It's up to the team bosses to keep their drivers in line, not the race stewards...
Both drivers are very competitive, McLaren is a team that does its best to give both drivers equal footing. Both want to win, and at times it would appear they both want to win at all costs to their team mate. This is fantastic for the sport, the only thing that I could not understand at the weekend was the Alonso penalty.
He pissed off his own team mate - so what? Fine, if he had effected another driver in a different team, then by all means penalise him, but not when it is your own team mate. It's up to the team bosses to keep their drivers in line, not the race stewards...
Dakkon said:
Your putting a great deal more thought into this than I imagine Hamilton did at the time, he had an order from Ron and I imagine instincts took over that he thought Kimi would pass so he did not do it.
In his interview with Steve Ryder, recorded on Saturday after qualifying, Hamilton admitted receiving and ignoring the order to move over but suggested this hadn't been agreed or discussed beforehand. Comments from RD, however, suggested otherwise.I think this is important in assessing to what degree LH was responsible for Saturdays debacle. If he deliberately ignored a prearranged agreement, he unfairly compromised Alonso's quail strategy, which hinged on him going out first in Q3 with a lighter fuel load and completing an extra fuel-burn lap. However much we may root for LH, if he is guilty of this, his actions were unprofessional and damaging to Alonso, his team and possibly himself, if his teammate refuses to follow agreed team strategy.
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