The McLaren thing just keeps on rolling?
Discussion
flemke said:
skeggysteve said:
Derek Smith said:
What is certain is that it will be completely above board with no tricks or hidden agendas. One can have faith in the veracity of everything that the FIA does.
And which smiley did you leave of the end of your post?
or this:
or this:
or this:
but most likely this:
I'm just off to see if I can find the last verdict made by the FIA that the rest of the world wasn't 'confused' by.
I could be gone a long time
nescio said:
runway78 said:
You do wonder why Toyota didn't have the book thrown at them in such a way when secrets were found to have been stolen from Ferrari?
Toyota isn't a front runner... classiccooper said:
And now to top it all off Mclaren have been using an un-crash tested gearbox apparently.
Well - they got a slap on the wrist (50.000€ fine). Nothing to worry about, but stupid anyway, some other teams have been punished more severely for similar offenses. Normally points for the race are taken away, but they lost those already for the pit stop incident.runway78 said:
nescio said:
davidd said:
According to this article, there was a email exchange between de la Rosa and Alonso, in another article (Spiegel Online, german only) it was mentioned that this email excange involved confidential Ferrari setup data. Now if that is more than just a 
rumour this could be very bad for McLaren.You do wonder why Toyota didn't have the book thrown at them in such a way when secrets were found to have been stolen from Ferrari?
Dr JonboyG said:
I doubt it. Mika Salo is on record saying that, when he was at Ferrari, when he'd get into the car for qualifying, the team would hand him a written transcript of the McLaren drivers' conversations with their mechanics in the pits. I don't think anything here is new, it's just Ferrari being underhanded and trying to win the championships in the courts instead of on track.
edit: typo deleted - if someone finds any more, he can keep them
Edited by nescio on Friday 7th September 16:36
From today, classic Jean Todt:
"Ferrari team principal Jean Todt acknowledges that Formula One's image is being damaged by the spy saga surrounding his team and McLaren - but thinks it more important that the case is followed through so the truth comes out.
With just four days to go before McLaren face a hearing of the FIA Motor Sport World Council to discuss new evidence in the spy case, Todt said his team were 'sorry' that the matter had erupted in F1.
"I mean, it's a taint on the sport every time that there is a bad controversy," he told reporters at the Monza circuit on Sunday night."
This clown claims to be "sorry" that F1 is being tainted by the spy scandal.
Most all of us are sorry that F1 is being tainted - but only one person has orchestrated a campaign of innuendo, leaks of confidential documents, and outright malicious fabrications in the Italian media.
These people have redefined the meaning of "hypocrisy".
"Ferrari team principal Jean Todt acknowledges that Formula One's image is being damaged by the spy saga surrounding his team and McLaren - but thinks it more important that the case is followed through so the truth comes out.
With just four days to go before McLaren face a hearing of the FIA Motor Sport World Council to discuss new evidence in the spy case, Todt said his team were 'sorry' that the matter had erupted in F1.
"I mean, it's a taint on the sport every time that there is a bad controversy," he told reporters at the Monza circuit on Sunday night."
This clown claims to be "sorry" that F1 is being tainted by the spy scandal.
Most all of us are sorry that F1 is being tainted - but only one person has orchestrated a campaign of innuendo, leaks of confidential documents, and outright malicious fabrications in the Italian media.
These people have redefined the meaning of "hypocrisy".
classiccooper said:
The evidence is the current constructors table, The Maclarens are leading the Ferrari's, what more evidence does the FIA need to dock them points.
So why, pray tell, didn't Ferrari fabricate a story of a similar ilk in every other season that McLaren were leading in the constructors championship?If it's apparently, according to your logic, so easy do have points docked...
In fact, what they should have done is pootled around at the back of every race, don't want to stress those engines now, then when they don't win just make a few complaints to the FIA and hey presto both titles are in the bag.
Jamesf288 said:
classiccooper said:
The evidence is the current constructors table, The Maclarens are leading the Ferrari's, what more evidence does the FIA need to dock them points.
So why, pray tell, didn't Ferrari fabricate a story of a similar ilk in every other season that McLaren were leading in the constructors championship?If it's apparently, according to your logic, so easy do have points docked...
In fact, what they should have done is pootled around at the back of every race, don't want to stress those engines now, then when they don't win just make a few complaints to the FIA and hey presto both titles are in the bag.
What we have seen in during the Todt era has included:
- mass damper row,
- Michelin tyres being declared illegal in mid-season,
- reversal of single-tyre rule, bans on beryllium, fiddle brake, continuously variable transmissions, and torque-bias diff,
- bargeboards found to be illegal, then decision reversed,
- brake ducts and wheel covers - both of which move - designed as aerodynamic devices, but not considered to be "moving aerodynamic devices",
- and now the incredibly over-the-top, Mamma mia! hyperbole about alleged spying.
All the above have one thing in common - Ferrari was in the middle of them all, the FIA decided them all, and Ferrari benefited from them all.
It was not always thus. In the past Ferrari may have done more than their fair of moaning, and may have enjoyed a political advantage over the other teams.
The Todt era, however, which has roughly coincided with the Mosley era, and with the Piccinini era (former Ferrari Sporting Director who is FIA second-in-command), has seen a massive increase in the politics of the sport, and in the extent to which one team appears systematically to be favoured at the expense of all the others.
flemke said:
I think classiccooper was using a bit of poetic licence to describe an unmistakable pattern.
What we have seen in during the Todt era has included:
- mass damper row,
- Michelin tyres being declared illegal in mid-season,
- reversal of single-tyre rule, bans on beryllium, fiddle brake, continuously variable transmissions, and torque-bias diff,
- bargeboards found to be illegal, then decision reversed,
- brake ducts and wheel covers - both of which move - designed as aerodynamic devices, but not considered to be "moving aerodynamic devices",
- and now the incredibly over-the-top, Mamma mia! hyperbole about alleged spying.
All the above have one thing in common - Ferrari was in the middle of them all, the FIA decided them all, and Ferrari benefited from them all.
It was not always thus. In the past Ferrari may have done more than their fair of moaning, and may have enjoyed a political advantage over the other teams.
The Todt era, however, which has roughly coincided with the Mosley era, and with the Piccinini era (former Ferrari Sporting Director who is FIA second-in-command), has seen a massive increase in the politics of the sport, and in the extent to which one team appears systematically to be favoured at the expense of all the others.
Well, you've convinced me.What we have seen in during the Todt era has included:
- mass damper row,
- Michelin tyres being declared illegal in mid-season,
- reversal of single-tyre rule, bans on beryllium, fiddle brake, continuously variable transmissions, and torque-bias diff,
- bargeboards found to be illegal, then decision reversed,
- brake ducts and wheel covers - both of which move - designed as aerodynamic devices, but not considered to be "moving aerodynamic devices",
- and now the incredibly over-the-top, Mamma mia! hyperbole about alleged spying.
All the above have one thing in common - Ferrari was in the middle of them all, the FIA decided them all, and Ferrari benefited from them all.
It was not always thus. In the past Ferrari may have done more than their fair of moaning, and may have enjoyed a political advantage over the other teams.
The Todt era, however, which has roughly coincided with the Mosley era, and with the Piccinini era (former Ferrari Sporting Director who is FIA second-in-command), has seen a massive increase in the politics of the sport, and in the extent to which one team appears systematically to be favoured at the expense of all the others.
flemke said:
Jamesf288 said:
classiccooper said:
The evidence is the current constructors table, The Maclarens are leading the Ferrari's, what more evidence does the FIA need to dock them points.
So why, pray tell, didn't Ferrari fabricate a story of a similar ilk in every other season that McLaren were leading in the constructors championship?If it's apparently, according to your logic, so easy do have points docked...
In fact, what they should have done is pootled around at the back of every race, don't want to stress those engines now, then when they don't win just make a few complaints to the FIA and hey presto both titles are in the bag.
What we have seen in during the Todt era has included:
- mass damper row,
- Michelin tyres being declared illegal in mid-season,
- reversal of single-tyre rule, bans on beryllium, fiddle brake, continuously variable transmissions, and torque-bias diff,
- bargeboards found to be illegal, then decision reversed,
- brake ducts and wheel covers - both of which move - designed as aerodynamic devices, but not considered to be "moving aerodynamic devices",
- and now the incredibly over-the-top, Mamma mia! hyperbole about alleged spying.
All the above have one thing in common - Ferrari was in the middle of them all, the FIA decided them all, and Ferrari benefited from them all.
It was not always thus. In the past Ferrari may have done more than their fair of moaning, and may have enjoyed a political advantage over the other teams.
The Todt era, however, which has roughly coincided with the Mosley era, and with the Piccinini era (former Ferrari Sporting Director who is FIA second-in-command), has seen a massive increase in the politics of the sport, and in the extent to which one team appears systematically to be favoured at the expense of all the others.
Though I also recall during the Ferrari-Schumacher era, Dennis questioning the legitimacy, with almost clock-like regularity and what seemed nothing more than frustrated rants, of several Ferrari victories.
His silence was notable on the occasions that McLaren won.
Edited by Jamesf288 on Sunday 9th September 22:39
Chrisgr31 - I guess some people may think they are leading the championship because they got Ferrari secrets....
However, it seems more likely to me that Ferrari are not happy that they look like losing out on another championship and are fighting through their friends in the FIA to make it easier for them to win. I take the point that Ron Dennis may have complained about Ferrari in the past, but if you look at the number of times those complaints were more than a moan to the media rather than an official complaint to the FIA, and then look how often Ferrari complain to the FIA I think this is a weak argument.
I can't help feeling that the root cause of this whole issue is an internal matter for Ferrari - allegedly one of their employees sent a lot of confidential information to a competitor. No one has suggested that McLaren requested the information, or paid for it. On that basis I think that Ferrari should look into why someone would be so dissatisfied with them as an employer and keep quiet, rather than complain that someone else received the information and maybe read it.
If Ferrari can prove that they have never listened to other team radios, never taken or looked at a photograph of another car, or employed any technical staff from another team then maybe they could claim to have never "spied" on others and have a right to complain. But as that is as likely as me winning the drivers championship this year I wish they would shut up and accept the same rules as everyone else, stop accepting extra money for having been in the sport longer than anyone else, not have their own representative on the FIA council which no other team has and just take part in a sport.
However, it seems more likely to me that Ferrari are not happy that they look like losing out on another championship and are fighting through their friends in the FIA to make it easier for them to win. I take the point that Ron Dennis may have complained about Ferrari in the past, but if you look at the number of times those complaints were more than a moan to the media rather than an official complaint to the FIA, and then look how often Ferrari complain to the FIA I think this is a weak argument.
I can't help feeling that the root cause of this whole issue is an internal matter for Ferrari - allegedly one of their employees sent a lot of confidential information to a competitor. No one has suggested that McLaren requested the information, or paid for it. On that basis I think that Ferrari should look into why someone would be so dissatisfied with them as an employer and keep quiet, rather than complain that someone else received the information and maybe read it.
If Ferrari can prove that they have never listened to other team radios, never taken or looked at a photograph of another car, or employed any technical staff from another team then maybe they could claim to have never "spied" on others and have a right to complain. But as that is as likely as me winning the drivers championship this year I wish they would shut up and accept the same rules as everyone else, stop accepting extra money for having been in the sport longer than anyone else, not have their own representative on the FIA council which no other team has and just take part in a sport.
andyps said:
On that basis I think that Ferrari should look into why someone would be so dissatisfied with them as an employer and keep quiet, rather than complain that someone else received the information and maybe read it.
So, if a competitor of yours in business got hold of confidential information via a disgruntled employee, you'd be happy to leave it at that once you'd disciplined the offending employee?You'd just sit back and think "nevermind eh, might be important, might not be. I know, let's leave it to chance and hope for the best......"
Jamesf288 said:
andyps said:
On that basis I think that Ferrari should look into why someone would be so dissatisfied with them as an employer and keep quiet, rather than complain that someone else received the information and maybe read it.
So, if a competitor of yours in business got hold of confidential information via a disgruntled employee, you'd be happy to leave it at that once you'd disciplined the offending employee?You'd just sit back and think "nevermind eh, might be important, might not be. I know, let's leave it to chance and hope for the best......"
Todt can't have it both ways by criticising McL for not exercising sufficient control over their staff when the source is one of their employees over whom, one has to conclude, they did not exercise sufficient control.
Looking at RD after the race yesterday, one has to feel for him. Here's a chap whose life has been F1. He must be thinking whether he wants to continue. F1 will be the poorer if RD leaves the field. If he's forced out by political intrigue and what goes on behind closed doors then it might be a bit like aversion therapy. Every time and F1 enthusiast watches a GP in the future there will be a bad taste in his mouth, sufficient to make them sick.
What are the movers and shakers in F1 doing to one of their greatest assets? Give them a brewery and loads of alcohol and one of them will try to pinch all the glasses.
Can't we just have races?
flemke said:
What we have seen in during the Todt era has included:
...
...
- brake ducts and wheel covers - both of which move - designed as aerodynamic devices, but not considered to be "moving aerodynamic devices",
Disappointing that this comes up time and time again. The wheel covers and brake ducts are covered under a different set of rules than the bodywork, and it is only the bodywork rules which state that all parts must remain immobile in relation to the sprung part of the car. The brake ducts, in fact, are explicitly excluded from that rule....
...
- brake ducts and wheel covers - both of which move - designed as aerodynamic devices, but not considered to be "moving aerodynamic devices",
Edited by jamieboy on Monday 10th September 09:13
flemke said:
but only one person has orchestrated a campaign of innuendo, leaks of confidential documents, and outright malicious fabrications in the Italian media.
These people have redefined the meaning of "hypocrisy".
Whilst Todt has undoubtedly led the campaign, there is one other high profile individual who has sought to fan the flames for his own ends. I'm not entirely sure that the true extent of his machiavellian actions will ever be revealed, but we'll all see the result of these in tme.These people have redefined the meaning of "hypocrisy".
Jamesf288 said:
andyps said:
On that basis I think that Ferrari should look into why someone would be so dissatisfied with them as an employer and keep quiet, rather than complain that someone else received the information and maybe read it.
So, if a competitor of yours in business got hold of confidential information via a disgruntled employee, you'd be happy to leave it at that once you'd disciplined the offending employee?You'd just sit back and think "nevermind eh, might be important, might not be. I know, let's leave it to chance and hope for the best......"
At the end of the day I do not feel that it is an FIA issue, much more of an internal one for Ferrari who should have to prove that McLaren asked for the information before they received it.
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