The McLaren thing just keeps on rolling?

[Stuismyname]

[LocoBlade]

npope said:

McCheater fans will never agree that they cheated how ever much proof come out. What will be even better they will lose the No. 1 on there cars next year when Alonso takes it with him.

Im a Mclaren fan and yep I'll admit they did get caught and I do agree with the verdict (if not the fine), but surely you aren't naive enough to believe that this is the only time this kind of thing has happened, and that Ferrari (or any other F1 team) have never received illegally obtained technical information about another team's car, or parts of it?

[AlexS]

npope said:

Do some people have tinted glasses on, McLaren are guilty proven in a court.

Nope, not a court, and McLaren were unable to prove their inocence the FIA already having decided they were guilty.

[stephen300o]

Ron could have a bloodied knife in his hand and you lot would still say "look at the mess Ferrari have made of our Ron's knife"

[castrolcraig]

stephen300o said:

Ron could have a bloodied knife in his hand and you lot would still say "look at the mess Ferrari have made of our Ron's knife"

yawn, suppose you didnt have a flexi floor either, or a poisonous vile tt of a manager.

why is it that no matter how many times mcmerc fans say we accept there was some wrong doing, ferrari fans can never admit to them cheating with the flexi floor!!

[stockhatcher]

so there is evidence of 323 text messages/calls between coughlan and stepney, how many were proven to be info about he car, could some of them be messages about lasts nights corrie?

also , coughlan did not seek out obtaining information on ferrari it was offered by a ferrari employee, so ferrari are as culpable as mclaren by not ensuring some sort of team loyalty.

it seems ot me that if this case went to a proper law court, it would be laughed out of court, becuase it seems all circumstantial evidence and no hard facts, other than a mclaren employee was in possession of a ferrari document given to him by a ferrari employee.

the fia had already gone into the meeting on thursday convinced of mclarens guilt, whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

[Scuffers]

stephen300o said:

Ron could have a bloodied knife in his hand and you lot would still say "look at the mess Ferrari have made of our Ron's knife"

can you honestly say that you are 100% sure that Ron had *any* idea this was going on?

way I see it, Alonso et all have been taking the piss (with some McLaren staff) and Ron has had the rug pulled out from under him.

we all know this stuff goes on all the time, the key is not to get caught.

Alonso has proved himself to be a spoilt brat of the highest order, and IMHO needs to be taught a few leasons.

[stephen300o]

castrolcraig said:

stephen300o said:

Ron could have a bloodied knife in his hand and you lot would still say "look at the mess Ferrari have made of our Ron's knife"

yawn, suppose you didnt have a flexi floor either, or a poisonous vile tt of a manager.

why is it that no matter how many times mcmerc fans say we accept there was some wrong doing, ferrari fans can never admit to them cheating with the flexi floor!!

Yawn right back at ya, Ron's no more of a vile tt than Todt.

"why is it that no matter how many times mcmerc fans say we accept there was some wrong doing", when did anyone admit that!, must have been inbeween the bile spewing and spite, I must have missed it.

The foor was no more cheating than Mclarens famous second brake pedal, the FIA just readjust the rules when someone has a bitch about it.

[woof]

stephen300o said:

castrolcraig said:

stephen300o said:

Ron could have a bloodied knife in his hand and you lot would still say "look at the mess Ferrari have made of our Ron's knife"

yawn, suppose you didnt have a flexi floor either, or a poisonous vile tt of a manager.

why is it that no matter how many times mcmerc fans say we accept there was some wrong doing, ferrari fans can never admit to them cheating with the flexi floor!!

Yawn right back at ya, Ron's no more of a vile tt than Todt.

"why is it that no matter how many times mcmerc fans say we accept there was some wrong doing", when did anyone admit that!, must have been inbeween the bile spewing and spite, I must have missed it.

The foor was no more cheating than Mclarens famous second brake pedal, the FIA just readjust the rules when someone has a bitch about it.

Stephen - the floor flexing was outside of the permitted amounts of tolerance (way out)
eg rule says 10 - ferrari floor 50
The 2nd brake pedal was banned but it was a new rule that the FIA created. There was no rule saying you can't have 2 brake pedals - christ knows how the drivers got to use to using it !!

Mclaren have a long list of systems that they have developed (within the rules) only to have them banned. A few years back they developed a system to harness the energy created under braking - spent a fortune to develop it - for the FIA to create a rule saying that type of system would be illegal

There's a clear difference between breaking an existing rule and creating new systems within the rules

[stephen300o]

woof said:

stephen300o said:

castrolcraig said:

stephen300o said:

Ron could have a bloodied knife in his hand and you lot would still say "look at the mess Ferrari have made of our Ron's knife"

yawn, suppose you didnt have a flexi floor either, or a poisonous vile tt of a manager.

why is it that no matter how many times mcmerc fans say we accept there was some wrong doing, ferrari fans can never admit to them cheating with the flexi floor!!

Yawn right back at ya, Ron's no more of a vile tt than Todt.

"why is it that no matter how many times mcmerc fans say we accept there was some wrong doing", when did anyone admit that!, must have been inbeween the bile spewing and spite, I must have missed it.

The foor was no more cheating than Mclarens famous second brake pedal, the FIA just readjust the rules when someone has a bitch about it.

Stephen - the floor flexing was outside of the permitted amounts of tolerance (way out)
eg rule says 10 - ferrari floor 50
The 2nd brake pedal was banned but it was a new rule that the FIA created. There was no rule saying you can't have 2 brake pedals - christ knows how the drivers got to use to using it !!

Mclaren have a long list of systems that they have developed (within the rules) only to have them banned. A few years back they developed a system to harness the energy created under braking - spent a fortune to develop it - for the FIA to create a rule saying that type of system would be illegal

There's a clear difference between breaking an existing rule and creating new systems within the rules

How come tw-at is censored, was it because of the really nasty stuff typed recently?
I don't think either team are any different than ther've always been, I just wish everyone would calm down a bit(which I suppose it has).

I thought the floor was outside tolerence because the way it was tested, or am I confusing the flexy wings?

[megy]

AlexS said:

npope said:

Do some people have tinted glasses on, McLaren are guilty proven in a court.

Nope, not a court, and McLaren were unable to prove their inocence the FIA already having decided they were guilty.

Agreed not a court, if it were, Mclaren would have been innocent and the FIA would have had to prove them guilty, as it was, it was a council meeting where Mclaren were guilty untill they proved they were innocent, with RD tipping off the FIA about the email/text contact, this was near on impossible. So really it was a meeting to decide what the penalty was going to be, and if Bernie is to believed, they WERE removed from the championship for 2007/2008 until he intervined.

It totally disgusts me that they walked away with the fine and points removal the way they did, yet when Ferrari are found to be cheating the rules are amended to suit.

As for Ferrari getting more of the revenue that the other teams, they keep threatening to leave the series unless that is the case, and Bernie/Max keep agreeing to their demands, just to keep them in the sport.

[AlbertTatlock]

Ok - so here's the Plan for the rest of the season ....

The 2 Maclaren drivers accidentally take out (legally of course) the 2 Ferraris at the first corner at each of the remaining 4 races

This will ensure that Hamilton and Alonso will finish 1st and 2nd in the drivers championship

And hopefully BMW will finish 1 and 2 in all the races and take the championship from Ferrari

[woof]

stephen yr correct - the test wasn't sufficient enough to test the flexibility of both rear wing and the floor

In a way all teams are pushing the limits of the rules - all the time

[castrolcraig]

AlbertTatlock said:

Ok - so here's the Plan for the rest of the season ....

The 2 Maclaren drivers accidentally take out (legally of course) the 2 Ferraris at the first corner at each of the remaining 4 races

This will ensure that Hamilton and Alonso will finish 1st and 2nd in the drivers championship

And hopefully BMW will finish 1 and 2 in all the races and take the championship from Ferrari

i wish

[grumbledoak]

AlbertTatlock said:

Ok - so here's the Plan for the rest of the season ....

The 2 Maclaren drivers accidentally take out (legally of course) the 2 Ferraris at the first corner at each of the remaining 4 races

This will ensure that Hamilton and Alonso will finish 1st and 2nd in the drivers championship

And hopefully BMW will finish 1 and 2 in all the races and take the championship from Ferrari

My plan for the rest of the season is to watch something less obviously rigged.
Like American Wrestling...

[derin100]

andyps said:

castrolcraig said:

anyone just seen the mole-sly statement, seems he pushing the blame firmly on to rd and not mentioning anything untoward in regards to alonstwat

i feel its time ron came out fighting.

petition for mole-sly for the sack, if mole-sly wants to get personal i think ron should hit him where it hurts.

The second part of the statement shown from Mosley looked very personal to me, comments such as the fine reduces their budget to that of other top teams, they were lucky to not get more, history may well show we did not do enough etc.

Max may have stated that he has known ROn for over 40 years, but he didn't directly mention that he does not like him! Trouble is, if Ron got as personal as Max did, he will be hauled before the WMSC and charged with bringing the sport into disrepute.....

Having watched his arrogance and listened his outburst in the paddock during qualifying this afternoon I am amazed he's so crass as not to be able to see the tenuous position he has now put himself in with this 'judgement and sentence'.

It is at the very least duplicitous and inconsistent to have removed the team (and I have no vested interested in Mclaren or any other particular team)from the 2007 F1 constructors championship and yet allowed the drivers in these cars to still contest the driver's championship.

Formula 1 motor racing is not an athletics running race where the equipment of say, for example, Adidas vs Nike may have negligible impact or confer minimal advantage. In F1 the 'equipment' of one competitor versus that of another is so central and fundamental to the outcome that to allow such a 'contest' to continue with 'equipment' that you have already pronouced to have been developed in the light of 'illegally' obtained information is proposterous!

Yet, in so doing Schmosely has potentially presented RD with the chance to get rid of him for good! It's quite simple really and is as follows:

The Mclaren Team have already been removed from the 2007 season constructors championship for having:

"...polluted the season..."

These were Mosley's words and accompanied by the oblique threat in words to the effect that perhaps it could be argued that they should be banned until at least 2009 for having potentially already "polluted" the 2008 season! AND further accompanied by the phrase:

"...if you're there at all!"

Yes! Can you believe that one?!

At the same time RD was giving an interview and speaking of the utmost value he places upon his integrity. Thus, if there is any acceptance or aquiesence to the sentence imposed by the FIA and so vigorously defended by Mosely then he must also accept that his drivers also should not currently head the driver's championship i.e The right and proper thing must be to accept that his driver's have also got there by unfair means. Therefore, even though the FIA has in a duplicitous fashion failed to remove the Mclaren drivers... RD/Mclaren should do so themselves.

This would have the effect of pulling the whole plug on this season's championship and making any potentially 'engineered' subsequent Ferrari victory in both the constructor's and driver's championships as hollow and meaningless as last season's farcical race at Indianapolis...but on a far greater scale of magnitude!

At the present time the most exciting aspect of this season (in a sport where many now find so little to get excited about) is the race for the title which is so narrowly being contested between the McLaren drivers...one of whom is seen as "the dazzling new rookie" and is generating huge media excitement.

Their withdrawal would of course be calamitous for F1!

You can almost hear Bernie's little feet shaking in his little booties:

"All that work, promotion, HYPE...and of course MONEY (!)...all going down the drain!!! All that public and media interest evaporating!...(for this season at least)...AND now he's talking about 2008? 2009? Or even: "...if you're there at all..." Blimey! I better have a whisper in Max's shell-like and damn sharpish! What the bloody hell does he think he's doing?"

And when that happens people will start looking around at each other and enquiring:

"Who's fault was that!? Who came up with that stupid, inconsistent punishment? Haven't teams always tried to gleen information about other teams cars? Haven't drivers always talked to each other to some extent about each others cars? What's the difference here? Just because this was recorded electronically and someone thought they could make it stick and make something out of it?"

People are already saying this looks potentially like an embarrassingly transparent attempt to give Ferrari a 'leg-up'. I don't know whether or not that is true.It seems almost too crass for that to be true? I go back to the hollow victory statement of earlier.Such a victory would be worse than pointless...it might ultimately prove counter-productive in terms of promoting Ferrari/Fiat.

But what will be true is people will look back to find who was responsible for the scenario degenerating to such a state. They won't have to look too far!

I can understand RD/Mclaren not having taken this step already at Spa; the ruling having been only announced a few days before this Grand Prix. There will of course be on-going negotiation, potential appeals etc for which there can be no hiatus in the preparation, qualifying and sunday's Grand Prix. But if the FIA stick by this ruling and Mosley continues to champion it I can see that RD/McLaren will be forced and indeed SHOULD do the only 'right and proper thing'.

By not doing so and continuing to race to the season's end I can see little benefit for them but risk losing more. However, by choosing a total withdrawal RD's integrity remains intact and they/he have potential to gain much in the form of the ultimate removal of Schmosley.

[As a rider to this...I'm suprised Mercedes Benz haven't stepped in yet...? Their marketing executives must be very uncomfortable with the type of promotion this is giving to the 'integrity' their corporation at the moment? I doubt that they are going to idly stand by if it comes to someone aquiescing to a duplicitous sentence? If RD/McLaren doesn't pull the plug may be they will?]

In summary, the season has been ruined...but really ruined by the ruling and:

" Who's fault is that?!?"

If I were RD/McLaren/MB...I'd make damn sure it was clear who's fault it was!

Edited by derin100 on Saturday 15th September 16:43

[Strangely Brown]

derin100 said:

In summary, the season has been ruined...but really ruined by the ruling and:

" Who's fault is that?!?"

If I were RD/McLaren/MB...I'd make damn sure it was clear who's fault it was!

Easy.. it was McLaren's fault.

They cheated and got caught... deal with it.

The No1 rule of cheating is, "don't get caught".

Edited by Strangely Brown on Saturday 15th September 17:33

[GavinPearson]

Who's fault is it?

Ferrari's for allowing information to be leaked. They should hardly be surprised if somebody uses the information.

It happens all the time in industry, and provided that trademark and patent laws aren't broken it's something that is chalked up to experience.

[LocoBlade]

I think an important thing that a lot of people are not really focussing on though is De La Rosa's involvement in this. If the leaked emails detailed Pedro talking to Alonso saying he'd got some data second hand from the engineers (who in turn got it from Coughlin) then I think that would be pretty blatant evidence of corruption throughout the engineering area of Mclaren at least, if not more. The facts are though that De La Rosa seems to be a pivotal person in the transfer of information, HE himself asks Coughlin for this information, HE himself says he'll try and get it tested.

Im not saying that he didn't subsequently pass this information onto other engineers, but if this information really and truely was distributed throughout Mclaren and they were as corrupt as some would like to believe, this kind of information would go straight from Coughlin to the other senior engineers / test engineers etc to act on directly, it WOULD NOT be channelled via a test driver to pass on.

Because of this, Im convinced that Ron / senior management certainly did not authorise or even know about this transfer of information between members of his team, and I do believe him when he says that at the time of the original hearing, he told the truth as he knew it at the time.

[Frik]

GavinPearson said:

Who's fault is it?

Ferrari's for allowing information to be leaked. They should hardly be surprised if somebody uses the information.

It happens all the time in industry, and provided that trademark and patent laws aren't broken it's something that is chalked up to experience.

Especially true of Formula 1.

Information will come in from all sorts of sources, some more reliable than others. To say this is a straightforward case of knowingly cheating is missing the point somewhat.