McLaren in more trouble
Discussion
Oh good grief. So they ran with a gearbox in Hungary that later passed the requisite safety test and therefore was not illegal, save for the admin and paperwork. Furthermore, McLaren have already lost the points from that event and therefore no other team is, or was, affected. There appears to have been no dishonesty or any attempt to conceal the new part.
What's the problem? Minor monetary fine at most. This is fast becoming a witch hunt.
What's the problem? Minor monetary fine at most. This is fast becoming a witch hunt.
Not that the t
ts in charge will care but if this does not end satisfactorily (assuming no real evidence against McLaren) I may have to stop watching F1. If this is a way to make Ferrari win the championship then it's a total facrce that I want no involvement in - even from my armchair (although it is very comfy) !!!
ts in charge will care but if this does not end satisfactorily (assuming no real evidence against McLaren) I may have to stop watching F1. If this is a way to make Ferrari win the championship then it's a total facrce that I want no involvement in - even from my armchair (although it is very comfy) !!!"Although the new gearbox did not require an altered crash structure from the one already approved by the FIA to be put in place, it is understood McLaren's actions could have breached article 16.1.2 of Formula One's technical regulations."
This is getting very silly. Trumped up charges because McLaren dared to challenge the stewards decision in Hungary?
This is getting very silly. Trumped up charges because McLaren dared to challenge the stewards decision in Hungary?
skeggysteve said:
Autosport reporting $50k fine for McLaren.
Whilst I agree some of the things going on with the FIA vs McLaren are appear a bit.....err odd, in this case McLaren did break a rule.
What I wonder is why?
It appears that McLaren did not consider the alteration to the gearbox to be a "significant modification", and thus, in their view, it did not require a crash test.Whilst I agree some of the things going on with the FIA vs McLaren are appear a bit.....err odd, in this case McLaren did break a rule.
What I wonder is why?
They broke a rule only in the sense that the stewards and they differed as to the definition of "significant".
As these were the same rocket scientists who decided that Alonso should be demoted to fifth starting position, and that McLaren should be ineligible for Constructors' points, I don't think that the stewards should be thought of as Solomonic in their wisdom.
This is looking very strange now.
The beauty of the gearbox scandal is it counters Dennis's arguement that Ferrari ran illegal cars in Oz. Ferrari can now turn around and say well you ran an "illegal" car in Hungary. I think the bias shown towards Ferrari from the FIA is well known and it seems like something is being set up for the 13th. Maybe I am reading to much into this but its seems more than just good timing that Mclaren get caught with this gearbox issue.
The beauty of the gearbox scandal is it counters Dennis's arguement that Ferrari ran illegal cars in Oz. Ferrari can now turn around and say well you ran an "illegal" car in Hungary. I think the bias shown towards Ferrari from the FIA is well known and it seems like something is being set up for the 13th. Maybe I am reading to much into this but its seems more than just good timing that Mclaren get caught with this gearbox issue.
coetzeeh said:
On a separate note -reading the ITV site they suggest Pedro de la Rosa and FA have been offered amnesty in exchange for evidence they may have regarding an e mail conversations pertaining Ferrari F2007 data.
Any more fact on this?
I could not locate the article to which you refer; no doubt you are reporting it accurately.Any more fact on this?
Does this "amnesty" speculation make any sense?
Certainly not in relation to Pedro. From what might the FIA offer him amnesty? There are no charges against him. There is, so far as the public has been informed, not the tiniest shred of evidence, or even secondary implication, that he was involved in this.
Furthermore, the FIA have no bone to give him. As a reward, would the FIA give him free points even though he has not raced this year? They don't employ him. They have no legitimate leverage at all.
It doesn't stack up.
WRT Alonso, things may get more interesting. If McLaren were penalised severely, potentially their Drivers' points could be deducted retroactively. If the FIA were to offer Alonso the ability to retain his points, whilst simultaneously threatening to take away Hamilton's points, that might be very tempting.
In fact, it might be so tempting as to induce a weak, insecure or paranoid person to, shall we say, "remember" conversations that may never have taken place.
Let us hope that Alonso is a bigger man than that.
The only thing McLaren did wrong, is they didnt ask the FIA for clarification as early as the FIA would have liked. Hence the joke of a fine.
They checked with the FIA before they used the gearbox, and were cleared to use it for the weekend on the basis that they would dicusss the crash test requirement later.
Post Hungary the FIA didnt agree with McLaren on the significance of the change, so were asked to do a crash test, which the gearbox passed.
The fine is in response to the fact McLaren could have brought the matter up earlier, thats all.
They checked with the FIA before they used the gearbox, and were cleared to use it for the weekend on the basis that they would dicusss the crash test requirement later.
Post Hungary the FIA didnt agree with McLaren on the significance of the change, so were asked to do a crash test, which the gearbox passed.
The fine is in response to the fact McLaren could have brought the matter up earlier, thats all.
FIA stewards said:
The stewards having received a report from the Race Director regarding the use a the Hungarian Grand Prix by Vodafone McLaren Mercedes (McLaren) of what they refer to as "lightweight gearbox" requested the presence today of Paddy Lowe (Engineering Director of McLaren) and David Ryan (Team Manager) and such other personnel as they considered appropriate to explain the position.
The facts as ascertained are that late in the afternoon of Thursday 2nd August Paddy Lowe disclosed to the Race Director as list of changes made to their vehicle, one of which was referred to as a "lightweight gearbox".
The matter was referred to the FIA F1 Technical Delegate for his consideration but a meeting between the parties did not take place until immediately prior to qualifying on Saturday 4th August.
Changes to both cars were shown to the Technical Delegate who marked the list produced by McLaren as confirmation that the changes had been brought to his attention. His action did not constitute approval to the changes and this fact is recognised by McLaren.
The Technical Delegate asked whether the changes to the gearbox had been subjected to a further crash test. He was advised that the changes were only to the gearbox and were not significant. The Technical Delegate asked that he be given details of the changes before the next race.
Both team cars took part in qualifying and the race using the lightweight gearboxes.
When further information was received on the evening of Friday of 17th August which detailed the tests carried out by McLaren on their lightweight gearboxes the FIA requested details of actual differences between the original gearbox and the lightweight version.
This information was finally received on the evening of Tuesday 21st August. It was the view of the FIA that the changes had been made to the original gearbox (which together with the original rear impact structure had been subjected to impact tests) were "significant".
2007 Formula One Technical Regulations Article 16/1/2 states that "any significant modification introduced into any of the structures tested shall require that part to pass a further test."
The FIA accordingly requested McLaren to carry out further tests as required by Article 16.1.1 in the presence of the FIA technical delegate.
Because of time constraints McLaren used the original (not the lightweight) gearboxes for the Turkish Grand Prix. The relevant tests were carried out and completed satisfactorily on Thursday 30th august.
The view of McLaren is that the modifications made to their original gearbox which resulted in that which is termed the lightweight gearbox were not significant within the meaning of Article 16.1.2 such as to require the component to be re-tested. They base this view upon what they regard as the excessive weight and strength of the original gearbox (which was designed to meet a greater crash test requirement than that which applies in 2007) and upon the results of their own computer modelling.
The view of the FIA is that the percentage in weight reduction (which it is accepted does not necessarily correlate to a reduction in strength) was of sufficient magnitude as to be regarded as "significant" therefore requiring an impact test before use.
Whilst the term "significant" contained within Article 16.1.2 is subjective and open to interpretation (as indicated by the different views adopted by McLaren and the FIA), what is beyond doubt is that by delaying the supply of information to the FIA (which could have been supplied on completion of the modification to the gearboxes during the week commencing Monday 16th July), McLaren deprived the FIA of the opportunity to consider the changes made and require impact testing to be carried out before use.
Had such information been imparted in due time the tests could have been satisfactorily completed prior to the Hungarian Grand Prix such that their use would have been without criticism.
Clearly the requirement to submit information which may result in a request of impact testing is important in the FIA's endeavours to ensure the continued safety of competitors. The Stewards feel that disclosure should be made in circumstances such as this and accordingly censure McLaren for choosing to rely on the results of their own computer modelling and denying the FIA the opportunity of requiring the results of an actual impact test before using the component concerned.
McLaren are accordingly ordered to pay a fine of US$50,000 (FIA International Sporting Code Article 155).
The view of the Stewards is that the components having been satisfactorily tested indicate that the cars complied with the technical configuration required when they raced in Hungary. Nothing in this decision is to be taken as condoning the practice of retrospective impact testing resulting in the use of untested components but in the particular circumstances of this case no further sanction will be applied.
The facts as ascertained are that late in the afternoon of Thursday 2nd August Paddy Lowe disclosed to the Race Director as list of changes made to their vehicle, one of which was referred to as a "lightweight gearbox".
The matter was referred to the FIA F1 Technical Delegate for his consideration but a meeting between the parties did not take place until immediately prior to qualifying on Saturday 4th August.
Changes to both cars were shown to the Technical Delegate who marked the list produced by McLaren as confirmation that the changes had been brought to his attention. His action did not constitute approval to the changes and this fact is recognised by McLaren.
The Technical Delegate asked whether the changes to the gearbox had been subjected to a further crash test. He was advised that the changes were only to the gearbox and were not significant. The Technical Delegate asked that he be given details of the changes before the next race.
Both team cars took part in qualifying and the race using the lightweight gearboxes.
When further information was received on the evening of Friday of 17th August which detailed the tests carried out by McLaren on their lightweight gearboxes the FIA requested details of actual differences between the original gearbox and the lightweight version.
This information was finally received on the evening of Tuesday 21st August. It was the view of the FIA that the changes had been made to the original gearbox (which together with the original rear impact structure had been subjected to impact tests) were "significant".
2007 Formula One Technical Regulations Article 16/1/2 states that "any significant modification introduced into any of the structures tested shall require that part to pass a further test."
The FIA accordingly requested McLaren to carry out further tests as required by Article 16.1.1 in the presence of the FIA technical delegate.
Because of time constraints McLaren used the original (not the lightweight) gearboxes for the Turkish Grand Prix. The relevant tests were carried out and completed satisfactorily on Thursday 30th august.
The view of McLaren is that the modifications made to their original gearbox which resulted in that which is termed the lightweight gearbox were not significant within the meaning of Article 16.1.2 such as to require the component to be re-tested. They base this view upon what they regard as the excessive weight and strength of the original gearbox (which was designed to meet a greater crash test requirement than that which applies in 2007) and upon the results of their own computer modelling.
The view of the FIA is that the percentage in weight reduction (which it is accepted does not necessarily correlate to a reduction in strength) was of sufficient magnitude as to be regarded as "significant" therefore requiring an impact test before use.
Whilst the term "significant" contained within Article 16.1.2 is subjective and open to interpretation (as indicated by the different views adopted by McLaren and the FIA), what is beyond doubt is that by delaying the supply of information to the FIA (which could have been supplied on completion of the modification to the gearboxes during the week commencing Monday 16th July), McLaren deprived the FIA of the opportunity to consider the changes made and require impact testing to be carried out before use.
Had such information been imparted in due time the tests could have been satisfactorily completed prior to the Hungarian Grand Prix such that their use would have been without criticism.
Clearly the requirement to submit information which may result in a request of impact testing is important in the FIA's endeavours to ensure the continued safety of competitors. The Stewards feel that disclosure should be made in circumstances such as this and accordingly censure McLaren for choosing to rely on the results of their own computer modelling and denying the FIA the opportunity of requiring the results of an actual impact test before using the component concerned.
McLaren are accordingly ordered to pay a fine of US$50,000 (FIA International Sporting Code Article 155).
The view of the Stewards is that the components having been satisfactorily tested indicate that the cars complied with the technical configuration required when they raced in Hungary. Nothing in this decision is to be taken as condoning the practice of retrospective impact testing resulting in the use of untested components but in the particular circumstances of this case no further sanction will be applied.
this must be some sort of bad joke.
2006- wasn't renault reprimanded/held back/punished/etc for anything they tried/did/suggested etc? funny that they were in the lead of the championships both years...with ferrari close behind!
2007- mclaren clearly the quicker car in most cases, and all this gumpf. hmmm, oh look, is that ferrari right behind them? i think it is.
so lets see that again- ferrari trailing the leaders with not long to go, and both the leading opposition teams are severly punished for anything the FIA or ferrari cries foul about.
2006- wasn't renault reprimanded/held back/punished/etc for anything they tried/did/suggested etc? funny that they were in the lead of the championships both years...with ferrari close behind!
2007- mclaren clearly the quicker car in most cases, and all this gumpf. hmmm, oh look, is that ferrari right behind them? i think it is.
so lets see that again- ferrari trailing the leaders with not long to go, and both the leading opposition teams are severly punished for anything the FIA or ferrari cries foul about.
stew-S160 said:
so lets see that again- ferrari trailing the leaders with not long to go, and both the leading opposition teams are severly punished for anything the FIA or ferrari cries foul about.
I don't know a great deal about F1 team's budgets. How much of a dent in McLaren's title hopes will a $50,000 fine cause?jamieboy said:
stew-S160 said:
so lets see that again- ferrari trailing the leaders with not long to go, and both the leading opposition teams are severly punished for anything the FIA or ferrari cries foul about.
I don't know a great deal about F1 team's budgets. How much of a dent in McLaren's title hopes will a $50,000 fine cause?stew-S160 said:
jamieboy said:
stew-S160 said:
so lets see that again- ferrari trailing the leaders with not long to go, and both the leading opposition teams are severly punished for anything the FIA or ferrari cries foul about.
I don't know a great deal about F1 team's budgets. How much of a dent in McLaren's title hopes will a $50,000 fine cause?So you could summarise the whole episode by saying that the FIA fined McLaren a token amount of money because they felt that McLaren had not followed correct procedure when introducing a new / revised part.
Or, as some above have done, you could summarise it as "Cheating, corrupt FIA do everything in their power to ensure evil Ferrari wins the championship".
flemke said:
coetzeeh said:
On a separate note -reading the ITV site they suggest Pedro de la Rosa and FA have been offered amnesty in exchange for evidence they may have regarding an e mail conversations pertaining Ferrari F2007 data.
Any more fact on this?
I could not locate the article to which you refer; no doubt you are reporting it accurately.Any more fact on this?
Does this "amnesty" speculation make any sense?
Certainly not in relation to Pedro. From what might the FIA offer him amnesty? There are no charges against him. There is, so far as the public has been informed, not the tiniest shred of evidence, or even secondary implication, that he was involved in this.
Furthermore, the FIA have no bone to give him. As a reward, would the FIA give him free points even though he has not raced this year? They don't employ him. They have no legitimate leverage at all.
It doesn't stack up.
WRT Alonso, things may get more interesting. If McLaren were penalised severely, potentially their Drivers' points could be deducted retroactively. If the FIA were to offer Alonso the ability to retain his points, whilst simultaneously threatening to take away Hamilton's points, that might be very tempting.
In fact, it might be so tempting as to induce a weak, insecure or paranoid person to, shall we say, "remember" conversations that may never have taken place.
Let us hope that Alonso is a bigger man than that.
This season is unfortunately spoilt in many ways. If Mclaren loses the titles, it will be blamed on Ferrari and FIA. If Mclaren wins the titles Ferrari and Flav will wail and weep and the spying cloud will forever be there.
.......and all we want to see is a good seasons racing!
coetzeeh said:
flemke said:
coetzeeh said:
On a separate note -reading the ITV site they suggest Pedro de la Rosa and FA have been offered amnesty in exchange for evidence they may have regarding an e mail conversations pertaining Ferrari F2007 data.
Any more fact on this?
I could not locate the article to which you refer; no doubt you are reporting it accurately.Any more fact on this?
Does this "amnesty" speculation make any sense?
Certainly not in relation to Pedro. From what might the FIA offer him amnesty? There are no charges against him. There is, so far as the public has been informed, not the tiniest shred of evidence, or even secondary implication, that he was involved in this.
Furthermore, the FIA have no bone to give him. As a reward, would the FIA give him free points even though he has not raced this year? They don't employ him. They have no legitimate leverage at all.
It doesn't stack up.
WRT Alonso, things may get more interesting. If McLaren were penalised severely, potentially their Drivers' points could be deducted retroactively. If the FIA were to offer Alonso the ability to retain his points, whilst simultaneously threatening to take away Hamilton's points, that might be very tempting.
In fact, it might be so tempting as to induce a weak, insecure or paranoid person to, shall we say, "remember" conversations that may never have taken place.
Let us hope that Alonso is a bigger man than that.
Hi there - a newbie here from Aussie and we had a strange comment made today on our local motor sport round up in RPM on the Ten Network (who host F1 down here and MotoGP etc). The presenter who's pretty solid and not known for wild accusations relayed something regarding Bridgestone and Lewis' puncture in Hungary and its apparently being regarded as somewhat suspicious.
All cars use tyre and rim warmers but only two teams (one being Mclaren) actually use carbon fibre tyre warmers made by KLS. Now what they are saying is Bridgestone has confirmed that the puncture was caused by overheating from the tyre warmer (not track debris) and that caused the tyre to blister/delaminate and explode - and obviously causing Hamilton to lose numerous places & possibly even the win.
OK on top of that these tyre warmers are apparently bulletproof in their application and are a set and forget item so its virtually impossible to overheat a particular tyre from the warmers - the presenter intimated that theres now thoughts that it had to be manually tampered with/adjusted to overheat. Anyone hear anything of that nature over your way?
All cars use tyre and rim warmers but only two teams (one being Mclaren) actually use carbon fibre tyre warmers made by KLS. Now what they are saying is Bridgestone has confirmed that the puncture was caused by overheating from the tyre warmer (not track debris) and that caused the tyre to blister/delaminate and explode - and obviously causing Hamilton to lose numerous places & possibly even the win.
OK on top of that these tyre warmers are apparently bulletproof in their application and are a set and forget item so its virtually impossible to overheat a particular tyre from the warmers - the presenter intimated that theres now thoughts that it had to be manually tampered with/adjusted to overheat. Anyone hear anything of that nature over your way?
Gassing Station | General Motorsport | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff