FIA on rocky ground ,Legal advice sought.
Discussion
Had a conversation with a retired barrister today and he seemed to think that the FIA are getting a bit ahead of themselves regarding this spy scandle.
He said before all else it must be prooved that Mclaren obtained this information in a illegal circumstance ie ,They tried to procure by payment or reward this information from a Ferrari employee and this must be prooved in a court of law.
If a employee decides to send them information of his own free will there is no law in any country and certainly in the uk that Mclaren have to tell anyone and are free to use it in anyway they see fit.
As he pointed out if a disgruntled BMW boffin sends VW the plans of what is in the pipeline they can not be held responsible.
Indeed if the FIA decide to ban Mclaren without being able to proove the above Mclaren,Mercedes and their sponsers could well take the FIA to court for any losses incurred from this ban.
As FI is not a sport but also commercial enterprise the court of the land would take president over any private organisation that is running it when it effects peoples livelyhoods and large companies in Britain and Germany.
Is there any legal brains out there to confirm this???
He said before all else it must be prooved that Mclaren obtained this information in a illegal circumstance ie ,They tried to procure by payment or reward this information from a Ferrari employee and this must be prooved in a court of law.
If a employee decides to send them information of his own free will there is no law in any country and certainly in the uk that Mclaren have to tell anyone and are free to use it in anyway they see fit.
As he pointed out if a disgruntled BMW boffin sends VW the plans of what is in the pipeline they can not be held responsible.
Indeed if the FIA decide to ban Mclaren without being able to proove the above Mclaren,Mercedes and their sponsers could well take the FIA to court for any losses incurred from this ban.
As FI is not a sport but also commercial enterprise the court of the land would take president over any private organisation that is running it when it effects peoples livelyhoods and large companies in Britain and Germany.
Is there any legal brains out there to confirm this???
Dunit said:
Had a conversation with a retired barrister today and he seemed to think that the FIA are getting a bit ahead of themselves regarding this spy scandle.
He said before all else it must be prooved that Mclaren obtained this information in a illegal circumstance ie ,They tried to procure by payment or reward this information from a Ferrari employee and this must be prooved in a court of law.
If a employee decides to send them information of his own free will there is no law in any country and certainly in the uk that Mclaren have to tell anyone and are free to use it in anyway they see fit.
As he pointed out if a disgruntled BMW boffin sends VW the plans of what is in the pipeline they can not be held responsible.
Indeed if the FIA decide to ban Mclaren without being able to proove the above Mclaren,Mercedes and their sponsers could well take the FIA to court for any losses incurred from this ban.
As FI is not a sport but also commercial enterprise the court of the land would take president over any private organisation that is running it when it effects peoples livelyhoods and large companies in Britain and Germany.
Is there any legal brains out there to confirm this???
no but its makes senceHe said before all else it must be prooved that Mclaren obtained this information in a illegal circumstance ie ,They tried to procure by payment or reward this information from a Ferrari employee and this must be prooved in a court of law.
If a employee decides to send them information of his own free will there is no law in any country and certainly in the uk that Mclaren have to tell anyone and are free to use it in anyway they see fit.
As he pointed out if a disgruntled BMW boffin sends VW the plans of what is in the pipeline they can not be held responsible.
Indeed if the FIA decide to ban Mclaren without being able to proove the above Mclaren,Mercedes and their sponsers could well take the FIA to court for any losses incurred from this ban.
As FI is not a sport but also commercial enterprise the court of the land would take president over any private organisation that is running it when it effects peoples livelyhoods and large companies in Britain and Germany.
Is there any legal brains out there to confirm this???
Dunit said:
Had a conversation with a retired barrister today and he seemed to think that the FIA are getting a bit ahead of themselves regarding this spy scandle.
He said before all else it must be prooved that Mclaren obtained this information in a illegal circumstance ie ,They tried to procure by payment or reward this information from a Ferrari employee and this must be prooved in a court of law.
If a employee decides to send them information of his own free will there is no law in any country and certainly in the uk that Mclaren have to tell anyone and are free to use it in anyway they see fit.
As he pointed out if a disgruntled BMW boffin sends VW the plans of what is in the pipeline they can not be held responsible.
Indeed if the FIA decide to ban Mclaren without being able to proove the above Mclaren,Mercedes and their sponsers could well take the FIA to court for any losses incurred from this ban.
As FI is not a sport but also commercial enterprise the court of the land would take president over any private organisation that is running it when it effects peoples livelyhoods and large companies in Britain and Germany.
Is there any legal brains out there to confirm this???
No wonder the barrister you spoke to is retired.He said before all else it must be prooved that Mclaren obtained this information in a illegal circumstance ie ,They tried to procure by payment or reward this information from a Ferrari employee and this must be prooved in a court of law.
If a employee decides to send them information of his own free will there is no law in any country and certainly in the uk that Mclaren have to tell anyone and are free to use it in anyway they see fit.
As he pointed out if a disgruntled BMW boffin sends VW the plans of what is in the pipeline they can not be held responsible.
Indeed if the FIA decide to ban Mclaren without being able to proove the above Mclaren,Mercedes and their sponsers could well take the FIA to court for any losses incurred from this ban.
As FI is not a sport but also commercial enterprise the court of the land would take president over any private organisation that is running it when it effects peoples livelyhoods and large companies in Britain and Germany.
Is there any legal brains out there to confirm this???
If something is by its nature obviously confidential, then you should not use it, and return it or destroy it immediately.
Your mate is talking b0llcoks.
What will dam them (McLaren) is that they have sworn that they knew nothing of the Ferrari data before the april or may date (whenever the alert photocopier bloke called italy). If it turns out they were using data earlier and even the drivers know it was bad then they will be in trouble.
However...
How do we know that a bridgestone tyre technician did not mention it in passing, or whilst they were setting a car up. It could be something as simple as 'Well Massa always runs 32psi on the front left try that'. Although I suspect something murkier.
D
However...
How do we know that a bridgestone tyre technician did not mention it in passing, or whilst they were setting a car up. It could be something as simple as 'Well Massa always runs 32psi on the front left try that'. Although I suspect something murkier.
D
I am a lawyer but don't claim any expertise in this field.
My first thought after reading about the letters to Alonso et al is that the FIA really are trawling the bottom of the barrel, you couldn't do that in a court of law in the UK.
BUT the FIA are taking action within the context of their sporting regulations, presumably on the basis of bringing the sport into disrepute and that might make things different.
Secondly, most Motorsport regulations state that disputes must be dealt with within the rules and regs of the sport initially rather than with reference to national courts.
My first thought after reading about the letters to Alonso et al is that the FIA really are trawling the bottom of the barrel, you couldn't do that in a court of law in the UK.
BUT the FIA are taking action within the context of their sporting regulations, presumably on the basis of bringing the sport into disrepute and that might make things different.
Secondly, most Motorsport regulations state that disputes must be dealt with within the rules and regs of the sport initially rather than with reference to national courts.
Many thanks for your replies and lets hope for the good of the sport common sense prevails if not this will run and run as we are not talking of some club racer caught with a oversize engine, Rather a multi Billion dollar company cheating.
Strange so much confedential material regarding this case keeps getting in the hands of the press but they are not using it , but handing it straight back or destroying it ?
Strange so much confedential material regarding this case keeps getting in the hands of the press but they are not using it , but handing it straight back or destroying it ?
Piglet said:
I am a lawyer but don't claim any expertise in this field.
My first thought after reading about the letters to Alonso et al is that the FIA really are trawling the bottom of the barrel, you couldn't do that in a court of law in the UK.
BUT the FIA are taking action within the context of their sporting regulations, presumably on the basis of bringing the sport into disrepute and that might make things different.
Secondly, most Motorsport regulations state that disputes must be dealt with within the rules and regs of the sport initially rather than with reference to national courts.
I believe that the FIA regs state that they themselves would only recognise a successful appeal against their own International Court of Appeal rulings if it were decided by the high court of France.My first thought after reading about the letters to Alonso et al is that the FIA really are trawling the bottom of the barrel, you couldn't do that in a court of law in the UK.
BUT the FIA are taking action within the context of their sporting regulations, presumably on the basis of bringing the sport into disrepute and that might make things different.
Secondly, most Motorsport regulations state that disputes must be dealt with within the rules and regs of the sport initially rather than with reference to national courts.
flemke said:
I believe that the FIA regs state that they themselves would only recognise a successful appeal against their own International Court of Appeal rulings if it were decided by the high court of France.
I'm not sure that they can enforce that under EEC rules. The FIA can fail to recognise all they want but if a court sitting in any EEC country decides that, say, McLaren have suffered because of an improper decision by any EEC institution that operates outside of just the one EEC state and makes an award or directive then that decision must stand until turned over by a higher court.I know of a similar Home Office restrictive law on Police Regs that was binned the first time it was challenged.
Any legal mind like to comment? Free-of-charge of course. (If any lawyer is confused, an explanation of free-of-charge can be found in the OED. I suggest sitting down before reading it though.)
Edited by Derek Smith on Sunday 9th September 17:34
Derek Smith said:
flemke said:
I believe that the FIA regs state that they themselves would only recognise a successful appeal against their own International Court of Appeal rulings if it were decided by the high court of France.
I'm not sure that they can enforce that under EEC rules. The FIA can fail to recognise all they want but if a court sitting in any EEC country decides that, say, McLaren have suffered because of an improper decision by any EEC institution that operates outside of just the one EEC state and makes an award or directive then that decision must stand until turned over by a higher court.I know of a similar Home Office restrictive law on Police Regs that was binned the first time it was challenged.
Any legal mind like to comment? Free-of-charge of course. (If any lawyer is confused, an explanation of free-of-charge can be found in the OED. I suggest sitting down before reading it though.)
Edited by Derek Smith on Sunday 9th September 17:34
There have been attempts to have the Jockey Club declared as a Public Body but these have failed.
Otherwise to the best of my knowledge it's a contractual situation, the FIA set out in their contract that they exclude the ability to use national laws and (other than where personal injury is involved) if you choose to enter into the contract you accept those regulations.
No, I wasn't going as far as Human Rights.
My understanding is - and I fully accept my belief might be wrong - that if the appeal is based not on the conclusion or penalty but on on improper procedure then any restrictive clause in a contract or agreement can be ignored or overridden.
In my personal experience, a civil court can review and overturn, or at least recommend overturning, a decision they consider perverse or improper despite a caveat in a contract (of employment) expressly forbidding it. I'm unaware of what penalty they could impose if the recommendation is not followed.
My understanding is - and I fully accept my belief might be wrong - that if the appeal is based not on the conclusion or penalty but on on improper procedure then any restrictive clause in a contract or agreement can be ignored or overridden.
In my personal experience, a civil court can review and overturn, or at least recommend overturning, a decision they consider perverse or improper despite a caveat in a contract (of employment) expressly forbidding it. I'm unaware of what penalty they could impose if the recommendation is not followed.
I think the Bosman ruling was to do with the rights of an individual to work within Europe and may have touched on anti-competition law. The theory being the Football Association's transfer scheme restricted his right to work wherever he wanted. It's been a while since I looked at it though but I think it was along those lines.
Don't forget we don't even know what the "Concorde Agreement" says, it's not been made public and unless I've missed something this still provides the structure of modern F1.
Frankly I think the lot of them should be taken out and shot and the FIA charged with bringing the sport into disrepute. I liked Brundle's comments on the grid yesterday!
Don't forget we don't even know what the "Concorde Agreement" says, it's not been made public and unless I've missed something this still provides the structure of modern F1.
Frankly I think the lot of them should be taken out and shot and the FIA charged with bringing the sport into disrepute. I liked Brundle's comments on the grid yesterday!
Piglet said:
Don't forget we don't even know what the "Concorde Agreement" says, it's not been made public and unless I've missed something this still provides the structure of modern F1.
I think you will find that the CA covers the commercial structure, whilst the FIA governs the sporting issues (ironic, considering how unsporting they themselves are).The FIA certainly is the one to determine who is acknowledged (by them, of course, in their "official" status) as champion, who gets points, and who is eligible to compete in any event which it sanctions.
I don't know this for a fact, but I strongly suspect that, if the FIA were to say that a team was ineligible for its events, although the other teams might support that team and be willing to allow it to race against them, the FIA would simply withdraw its sanction from that event.
We who genuinely care about motor racing - in contrast to some of the FIA scum - could not care less whether they sanction an event, but the reality is that, without their sanction, there will be no F1 (at least for the forseeable future).
This is part of what the GPMA was about, and we saw how far that got.
As a follow up to this thread I see on autosport this morning that Mercedes themselves have indicated that they intend to to pursue this matter through the courts.
No mention if this will be the civil court or where. May well be that the FIA will need the 100 mill to defend their actions and how they arrived at the decision on the evidence presented.
I suspect they will go the appeal route first to give the FIA a second chance in front of the worlds press in justifing their verdict.
The lawyers must rubbing their hands.
No mention if this will be the civil court or where. May well be that the FIA will need the 100 mill to defend their actions and how they arrived at the decision on the evidence presented.
I suspect they will go the appeal route first to give the FIA a second chance in front of the worlds press in justifing their verdict.
The lawyers must rubbing their hands.
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