Stewards investigating Hamilton's driving

[JP_Midget]

LocoBlade said:

jamieboy said:

JP_Midget said:

If there'd been an electrical gremlin causing gear select issues that temporarily left him without power would he been able to come back to his position? Yes, since the Massa had done so after a spin in the first safety car period.

Although didn't Massa get a drive-through penalty for that?

Maybe the fact that Hamilton wouldnt have been able to regain his position is a hint to why Webber was quite hasty in trying to get in front of Hamilton when he saw him go wide, hoping if he was slowing because of an issue or a minor off, he could take the position quicky before Hamilton had time to recover his position. When he realised this wasnt the case he braked again to stay behind which caught Vettel out.

My mistake, I'd not picked up on Massa's penalty!

Still, it doesn't make any sense to penalise Massa in my opinion; the conditions were appalling, so much so that they decided the safety car had to be out for the race start, so the track was trecherous. Had Massa's moment been not his fault (and I doubt he'd blame himself, and will ignore the tyres he was using at the minute), why should he lose places, or not be able to take them back?!

For example, if Massa took a reasonable line, but slid out wide, and the car following was able to see this and take a better line and overtake why should they be able to do this under the safety car, and why should Massa not be able to take his place back?

At that time Massa did look like he had to push the limits of grip to keep up with the safety car, so the decision to force the teams to take full wet tyres was a good one as I think at that time he was on intermediates.

I'm getting rather off topic now I know! Cracking bit of gossip though eh!

[Derek Smith]

rustybin said:

Fernando Alonso
FA
FIA
FerrarI spA

It all becomes clear. Alonso was planted by Ferrari, I mean the FIA, no sorry Ferrari, to ruin everything and make Ron cry.

Is it just me or is F1 getting more like Hello with wheels by the day. I am getting to the point of turning on 1 minute before the race starts and turning off as soon as the cars are back in parc ferme to try and avoid as much of this school girl crap as possible. They all need to bloody grow up.

I thought FIA stood for Bloody Incompetant Administrators.

[Stuismyname]

Derek Smith said:

rustybin said:

Fernando Alonso
FA
FIA
FerrarI spA

It all becomes clear. Alonso was planted by Ferrari, I mean the FIA, no sorry Ferrari, to ruin everything and make Ron cry.

Is it just me or is F1 getting more like Hello with wheels by the day. I am getting to the point of turning on 1 minute before the race starts and turning off as soon as the cars are back in parc ferme to try and avoid as much of this school girl crap as possible. They all need to bloody grow up.

I thought FIA stood for Bloody Incompetant Administrators.

Still not seen anyone about that dyslexia then?

[Derek Smith]

flemke said:

he chooses (not to) distance himself from his father's repellent values

(quote slightly modified but sense retained)

It is unfortunate for those of us blessed with excellent and highly moral fathers that we are often judged on how well we measure up to their standards and performance. MMosley should be judged solely on what he has done without any reference to his father. He is not obliged to distance himself in any way from his father's political aberrations, replusive as they were. He is responsible for his own actions alone.

Whilst I believe that Mosely has been a disaster for F1, being Ozzy's son makes him no more culpable.

Edited by Derek Smith on Friday 5th October 18:20

[skeggysteve]

BBC 1 news have just showed not only the Youtube clip but also onboards from Webber and Vettal.

The onboard from Vettal's car appeared to show him accelerating into Webber's car when the red light on Webber's car was very obvious.

From those onboards I'm even more impressed by all the drivers - visibility was very bad. I wouldn't want to drive a road car in those conditions let alone a racing car.

[animula]

I shall not repeat here what I said in "Who is responsible for start the latest crash theory ?"

Sorry I missed this thread, I blame the steam fogging my glasses no doubt some of you will have other theories - good luck guys.

[flemke]

Derek Smith said:

flemke said:

he chooses (not to) distance himself from his father's repellent values

(quote slightly modified but sense retained)

It is unfortunate for those of us blessed with excellent and highly moral fathers that we are often judged on how well we measure up to their standards and performance. MMosley should be judged solely on what he has done without any reference to his father. He is not obliged to distance himself in any way from his father's political aberrations, replusive as they were. He is responsible for his own actions alone.

Whilst I believe that Mosely has been a disaster for F1, being Ozzy's son makes him no more culpable.

Derek,

With respect, I think that your well-intentioned paraphrase does not succeed in retaining the sense of what I wrote, or at least not the sense of what I meant.

flemke said:

If he is a highly intelligent man, and he chooses to act in ways that, rather than distancing him from his father's repellent values, actually appear to embrace and emulate those values...

That is, my essential point was not that he had failed to renounce those repellent values, although one might have preferred that he do so.
My main point was that the actual behaviour has been disgraceful. According to public sources, it has included:

- self-aggrandising political manipulation of the FIA Presidency (Remember the resignation that wasn't? How about when they changed the rules for how the President is elected?)
- exclusive, secret deals with powerful industrial supporters (How many commercial contracts are agreed - without competitive tender - for a 100 year duration?)
- slandering political opponents (McLaren's 'culture of spying' which 'polluted' Formula One; Jackie Stewart's being 'a certified half-wit' who is a 'figure of fun')
- abusing regulatory and rule-making power to settle scores (recent WMSC verdict being the most egregious) or unilaterally to impose his will (V8 engines)
- assertion of autocratic control regardless of the interests of the parties that he is meant to serve (blocking solution to Indy '05)
- authoritarian arrogance (this is the man who wants to put a 70 mph speed-limiter on your car, Derek).

All the above is part of just what I have seen in the public domain. It seems to me to be, within its quite trivial sphere, very much of a piece with the values and behaviour that were notoriously championed by his father.

If this guy had behaved admirably, or even decently by most standards - if he really did seem to be a straight shooter who always tried to do the right thing - one would genuinely feel sorry for his having had to carry around that awful baggage, just as one felt sorry for Svetlana Stalin.

One of my classmates at uni had a father who happened to be the brutal, corrupt dictator of a South American country. The classmate herself was a perfectly nice girl - no attitude, no pretensions; everyone liked her. If, however, she had treated people in her life the way that her old man had treated the citizens of his country, she would have been treated with contempt.
She was wise, humble and well-adjusted enough to know better. I don't think that Max Mosley is the same.

Cheers.

[Derek Smith]

flemke said:

My main point was that the actual behaviour has been disgraceful. According to public sources, it has included:

- self-aggrandising political manipulation of the FIA Presidency (Remember the resignation that wasn't? How about when they changed the rules for how the President is elected?)
- exclusive, secret deals with powerful industrial supporters (How many commercial contracts are agreed - without competitive tender - for a 100 year duration?)
- slandering political opponents (McLaren's 'culture of spying' which 'polluted' Formula One; Jackie Stewart's being 'a certified half-wit' who is a 'figure of fun')
- abusing regulatory and rule-making power to settle scores (recent WMSC verdict being the most egregious) or unilaterally to impose his will (V8 engines)
- assertion of autocratic control regardless of the interests of the parties that he is meant to serve (blocking solution to Indy '05)
- authoritarian arrogance (this is the man who wants to put a 70 mph speed-limiter on your car, Derek).

Having re-read your whole post I can see that my precis was a misquote.

We don't appear to disagree on the nature of MMosley's character or performance. I only wanted to make the point that he should be judged (and condemned) on what he has done himself, without reference to what his father was.

My dad was a lovely chap who joined up just before the war to fight what he, quite perceptively, saw as the horror of faschism. He tried to intervene when his blackhirts were chasing some Jews near Tower Bridge. Some turned on my father and broke three of his fingers by placing them against a kerb and stamping on them. One of the Jews was caught and, my father believes, beaten and killed. It wasn't felt important enough to report in the nationals.

I'm a different bloke. How I compare to my old man is no-one's business but mine.

Max Mosely would appear to be everything you say. And we probably don't know the half of it. His father, however, created an entirely different level of evil.

Sorry for the misquote.

Edited by Derek Smith on Friday 5th October 21:18

[flemke]

Derek Smith said:

My dad was a lovely chap who joined up just before the war to fight what he, quite perceptively, saw as the horror of faschism. He tried to intervene when his blackhirts were chasing some Jews near Tower Bridge. Some turned on my father and broke three of his fingers by placing them against a kerb and stamping on them. One of the Jews was caught and, my father believes, beaten and killed. It wasn't felt important enough to report in the nationals.

I'm a different bloke. How I compare to my old man is no-one's business but mine.

Your dad sounds to me like a hero, Derek, and, if you don't mind my saying so, I'd bet that you're made of the same stuff.
Those of us who were lucky enough to have fathers who were honourable men spend our lives trying to live up to their example. I'm not sure what is natural for those who were unlucky enough to have fathers who were dishonourable men.

Derek Smith said:

Max Mosely would appear to be everything you say. And we probably don't know the half of it. His father, however, created an entirely different level of evil.

Perhaps we should be thankful that the son has not had as full a range of opportunities to prove himself.

Cheers.