OFFICIAL CHINA GP THREAD WITH SPOILERS UNDER INVESTIGATION
Discussion
ferrisbueller said:
Sorry Flemke, don't agree. I too have been scouring YouTube for the incar footage - thanks for finding that.
You know, Ferris, the odd thing about what's shown in that clip (which at least at the moment is still up, but I wouldn't expect it to stay there for long) is that Lewis does not seem to be making the greatest effort to get the car turned as he approaches the gravel, until he is upon it.The fronts aren't locked, so he ought to be able to use the steering a lot more than he is doing.
He countersteers early in the move, but surely he does not need to continue with the wheel in a near straight-ahead position for as long as he does because the back of the car continues to skew to the right...or does he?
We see these cars sideways fairly frequently (although that is usually under power). In this case, the body doesn't yaw much at any point.
(I'll pm you to answer your question above.)
flemke said:
Observations
It all seemed very odd to me. Not sure if he just got target vision, panicked or gave up. Whether the diff wouldn't let the car turn, I don't know. Why he didn't slow the car down more, I don't know. All looked very calm and serene as it rolled into the gravel. Weird!Whatever, you spend far too much time on YouTube
flemke said:
I'll pm you to answer your question above
Thanks. I can't PM back.Would it be a combination of a pitlane that is wetter than the track, no tread on the rear tyres and no downforce at all at the low speed?
The car seems to turn left ok to me, but then he immediately has to counter steer, then pause for half a second while the rear stops moving/settles down/regains grip or whatever, by which time the front tyres are crossing the white line.
Bet there's no gravel there next year.
The car seems to turn left ok to me, but then he immediately has to counter steer, then pause for half a second while the rear stops moving/settles down/regains grip or whatever, by which time the front tyres are crossing the white line.
Bet there's no gravel there next year.
flemke said:
the odd thing about what's shown in that clip (which at least at the moment is still up, but I wouldn't expect it to stay there for long) is that Lewis does not seem to be making the greatest effort to get the car turned as he approaches the gravel, until he is upon it.
Careful, flemke, you're asking for the tin foil hat brigade to suggest that there's a conspiracy to have the WDC settled at the final round. flemke said:
sstein said:
(posted, actually) something despicable
You think that shit is funny, asshole?How'd you like someone to pay you a visit and rearrange your body parts?
Scum.
kevin ritson said:
LocoBlade said:
kevin ritson said:
Ultimately Lewis showed his inexperience. You make a decision with the team on tyres but only the driver knows what the car is like to drive on them, regardless of whether they can see them or not. Could you imagine Schumacher waiting for Ross Brawn to make the call in the past?
I think he did show a little inexperience or at least that he's fallable in the way he came into the pits a bit quick and also possibly by not letting Raikkonen go a bit earlier given the circumstances, but seeing as there was rain forecast in the following 5-10 minutes Im pretty sure he'd have been relying on the team to make the call on the pitstop because even though he was losing a few seconds per lap on his worn inters, had he come in earlier and picked the wrong tyres (ie new inters as it turned out), he'd have lost the best part of 30 seconds as he'd have to make another pitstop, so it was probably best for him to stay out as long as possible so they could minimise the risk of an incorrect decision.Heebeegeetee said:
Strangely Brown said:
Mojocvh said:
Strangely Brown said:
Personally, I would rather see a champion that can lose with good grace, win with humility.
Like the Cobbler you mean?Why is it that as soon as anyone says anything against Lewis bloody Hamilton it is automatically assumed that they are a Ferrari fan?
If you believe all the cobblers that used to get published about drivers, ESPECIALLY british drivers, which you obviously do, then you're a complete fool.
The idea that Mike Hawthorn was a good loser is ridiculous. When Chris Nixon wanted to write the book 'Mon Ami Mate' about Hawthon and Collins, the Hawthorn family mad it clear that they weren't interested in revisiting all the old hogwash that used to get written about him. Even they said Hawthorn could be an arsehole, and they were family! Surtees wasn't popular. He fell out with Ferrari so much that he secured the championship for them in a car painted blue!
Jackie Stewart was universally reviled for his safety campaign. James Hunt had a screw loose and once hit his brother with a spade. Nigel Mansell was possibly the biggest arsehole ever to put his arsehole in a car.
Years ago, if you were a star in Britain, the media would just invent a persona around you. It was the way they went about their business then. people wanted to read how the racially superior plucky Brit always put Johhny Foreigner in his place.
Mika Hakkinen a good loser? Oh, so that was someone else we saw throwing his gloves down and stomping of for a good sob. And he appeared on the cover of Autosport whinging to shumacher about his driving. I laughed at the picture, there was Schumacher standing there trying to look like he was interested. Fancy complaining to Michael about his driving, like he is going to care!
Where does all this shite come from? Any sports star is a human being with all the same infallibilities as every other human being. Top sport stars, all of them, are bad losers. There is no such thing as a good loser at the highest levels. Some might be worse than others. Much has been made of Alonsos latest spat, but the interview i saw with him afterard, was one of the most genuine, open and honest interview i have ever seen from any driver, and ye god, i've seen a few. Hell would literally have to freeze over before you'd here Mansell talk like that. I was a big Mansell fan, still am, but i also know he was a complete liar. Nothing, i mean NOTHING, was ever his fault. And ask Murray Walker what a nice, well rounded chap James Hunt was when he started working with him.
Don't get me wrong, all the people i've mentioned i love, all of them. They have all entertained me for years and i woldn't wish anthing against them, just don't try and tell me they were well rounded individuals, 'cos sportsmen rarely are.
Lewis though, out of the current crop of sports starts, is fantastic. He's a fantastic example for young people to follow, and who knows, maybe those of a similar background to him might follow his example of hard work and good manners, instead of all those moronic gangsta rappers,
Me teas ready, i've gotta go.
Strangely, do you want to borrow my copy of the Boys Own Book of Motor Racing? Sounds like its up your street.
Are you sure we weren't separated at birth?
Heebeegeetee said:
Would it be a combination of a pitlane that is wetter than the track, no tread on the rear tyres and no downforce at all at the low speed?
The car seems to turn left ok to me, but then he immediately has to counter steer, then pause for half a second while the rear stops moving/settles down/regains grip or whatever, by which time the front tyres are crossing the white line.
Bet there's no gravel there next year.
Yes, but it is hard to get one's head around the idea that it would take half a second for the car to settle.The car seems to turn left ok to me, but then he immediately has to counter steer, then pause for half a second while the rear stops moving/settles down/regains grip or whatever, by which time the front tyres are crossing the white line.
Bet there's no gravel there next year.
Their springs are super-stiff, the cars are extremely responsive to inputs. It doesn't take as much as half a second for them to settle after 180 mph, off-camber, tail-out corrections.
There is a length of time when this man, who has lightning-fast reflexes and unbelievable sensitivity, seems to make no effort to get the car turned. He eventually puts on a lot of steering, but only when he is near the edge of the gravel, and the car simply does not have enough lock to make the turn from there.
Even if he was just trying to get it slowed down, the brakes don't appear to lock for an instant, so there appears to have been residual grip that could have been used for turning.
Odd.
flemke said:
Heebeegeetee said:
Would it be a combination of a pitlane that is wetter than the track, no tread on the rear tyres and no downforce at all at the low speed?
The car seems to turn left ok to me, but then he immediately has to counter steer, then pause for half a second while the rear stops moving/settles down/regains grip or whatever, by which time the front tyres are crossing the white line.
Bet there's no gravel there next year.
Yes, but it is hard to get one's head around the idea that it would take half a second for the car to settle.The car seems to turn left ok to me, but then he immediately has to counter steer, then pause for half a second while the rear stops moving/settles down/regains grip or whatever, by which time the front tyres are crossing the white line.
Bet there's no gravel there next year.
Their springs are super-stiff, the cars are extremely responsive to inputs. It doesn't take as much as half a second for them to settle after 180 mph, off-camber, tail-out corrections.
There is a length of time when this man, who has lightning-fast reflexes and unbelievable sensitivity, seems to make no effort to get the car turned. He eventually puts on a lot of steering, but only when he is near the edge of the gravel, and the car simply does not have enough lock to make the turn from there.
Even if he was just trying to get it slowed down, the brakes don't appear to lock for an instant, so there appears to have been residual grip that could have been used for turning.
Odd.
flemke said:
Yes, but it is hard to get one's head around the idea that it would take half a second for the car to settle.
Their springs are super-stiff, the cars are extremely responsive to inputs. It doesn't take as much as half a second for them to settle after 180 mph, off-camber, tail-out corrections.
There is a length of time when this man, who has lightning-fast reflexes and unbelievable sensitivity, seems to make no effort to get the car turned. He eventually puts on a lot of steering, but only when he is near the edge of the gravel, and the car simply does not have enough lock to make the turn from there.
Even if he was just trying to get it slowed down, the brakes don't appear to lock for an instant, so there appears to have been residual grip that could have been used for turning.
Odd.
I wonder if, due to how they use (or don't use) gravel nowadays, that Lewis had got used to being able to run off the track and rejoin again again? I definitely think the problem was with the rear of the car and not the front, as you say the fronts don't lock up or anything. In his explanation published on Pit Pass he states he lost the rear of the car. Their springs are super-stiff, the cars are extremely responsive to inputs. It doesn't take as much as half a second for them to settle after 180 mph, off-camber, tail-out corrections.
There is a length of time when this man, who has lightning-fast reflexes and unbelievable sensitivity, seems to make no effort to get the car turned. He eventually puts on a lot of steering, but only when he is near the edge of the gravel, and the car simply does not have enough lock to make the turn from there.
Even if he was just trying to get it slowed down, the brakes don't appear to lock for an instant, so there appears to have been residual grip that could have been used for turning.
Odd.
But I wonder if while waiting for the rear of the car to join the party he was also looking at what his options were for running wide, he just has time to take in the fact there's gravel in front of him, but the gravels wet which means you can often get across the stuff, but can you at this speed?, etc etc. He was being extra cautious maybe, not putting any big inputs in, like he's tippy-toeing on ice (perhaps the grip was that low for him) and he makes a decision to cross the gravel but it turned out to be a wrong decision...
A real shame, really is. I have simply loved watching his last 2 final qually laps of these 2 last GPs, the one in the wet in Japan is possibly the finest lap i've ever seen, truly the work of an artist. You really, truly do have to go back to the time of Senna i believe, when a driver was able to pull something out of the bag, to get the mindset, the application, the discipline, the sheer oooh, i don't really know how to describe it, the sheer mental strength and application to do what had to be done to get the car on pole.
Before Japan, i didn't think Hamilton was going to win the championship, like many i thought Alonso had got the momentum, and tbh, i still like Alonso so i didn't mind that at all as deep down, i thought he was the better, more experienced driver. But Hamilton has proved me wrong, and its been wonderful to see. Without a doubt Hamilton is now better that Alonso I believe, and some distance better than Raikkonen, he truly is the best driver at the moment, inexperience notwithstanding. I'm really gonna find it hard to take if he doesn't win the championship, and if a Ferrari driver wins it'll be too much. It'll be completely wrong.
Edited by Heebeegeetee on Monday 8th October 11:30
From looking at the video, it looks like the rear end was not behaving. He makes three counter steering attempts during the turn: a small one a the beginning, a big one in the middle of the corner, and then another small one (the smallest) right before he goes onto the grass and then the gravel. I don't think the rear end would let him turn because it was threatening to let go right up to the run off. If he turned any earlier he would've threatened putting a rear wheel on the grass, or going into the gravel sideways putting him in danger of having less control and really beaching the car. As far as the responsiveness of the springs etc, there needs to be grip generated through the tyre before the spring comes into play. Hamilton says it was like ice on the pit entry. Why? My hypothesis is a combination of no dry line, a chorded contact patch, no downforce to push the rubber from the shoulder of the tyre down, and just barely not enough space to recover.
It seems that my previous reply re-iterates the points of heebee. sorry about that, i was writing when you posted. And as far as Hamilton's qualifying prowess, I'm not sure about fuji, but in China he was five laps lighter. Might that have something to do with his pole?
Edited by 35secToNuvolari on Monday 8th October 11:59
I think the delay was due to him initially thinking he could make the hard standing area to the right of the gravel then realising the car won't turn enough and deciding to head for the gravel to try and drive through it.
definitely caused by going from a track to a pit lane with totally different grip levels though and one he'll no doubt remember.
definitely caused by going from a track to a pit lane with totally different grip levels though and one he'll no doubt remember.
35secToNuvolari said:
It seems that my previous reply re-iterates the points of heebee. sorry about that, i was writing when you posted. And as far as Hamilton's qualifying prowess, I'm not sure about fuji, but in China he was five laps lighter. Might that have something to do with his pole?
Was he that light? I'd assumed he'd been brought in when he was to get him back out on a clear track. I didn't see qualifying (only the final laps) but I thought Hamilton had been slower than the others throughout the session. Surely if he was that light he'd have been quicker throughout?35secToNuvolari said:
It seems that my previous reply re-iterates the points of heebee. sorry about that, i was writing when you posted. And as far as Hamilton's qualifying prowess, I'm not sure about fuji, but in China he was five laps lighter. Might that have something to do with his pole?
But hes still running within the rule book .Edited by 35secToNuvolari on Monday 8th October 11:59
Heebeegeetee said:
35secToNuvolari said:
It seems that my previous reply re-iterates the points of heebee. sorry about that, i was writing when you posted. And as far as Hamilton's qualifying prowess, I'm not sure about fuji, but in China he was five laps lighter. Might that have something to do with his pole?
Was he that light? I'd assumed he'd been brought in when he was to get him back out on a clear track. I didn't see qualifying (only the final laps) but I thought Hamilton had been slower than the others throughout the session. Surely if he was that light he'd have been quicker throughout?I think we should have final qualifying the same as second, the different fuel loads make pole not the achievement it used to be
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