Pro Drive under investigation - sort of.....
Discussion
Looks like ProDrive might not make it to the grid next year.
Chris
ITV-F1 said:
FIA hearing over Prodrive entry
Friday, 05, October, 2007, 09:57
The FIA Court of Appeal is to make a judgement about Prodrive's entry for the 2008 championship in a hearing in London on 24-25 October.
The case has been brought following an enquiry by the Williams team regarding Prodrive's eligibility to become Formula 1's 12th team.
"Further to the receipt of a letter from the Williams F1 team regarding the legality of the entry of Prodrive F1 in the 2008 FIA Formula One World Championship, the President of the FIA has made a referral to the FIA’s International Court of Appeal (ICA) under Article 1 of the ICA Rules of Procedure," said an FIA statement.
It is understood that the hearing is part of the ongoing debate over the role of customer cars in F1.
Prodrive was picked from a number of potential entrants to take the final spot in the F1 pit lane next season, and has been open about its intention to run a customer chassis.
McLaren has since confirmed that it is intending to provide cars for Prodrive once the team's entry is finalised.
But the deal has been held up by the continued discussions over the new Concorde Agreement, the document that sets out how F1 operates.
It had initially been thought that customer cars – which are currently prohibited – would be permitted under next year's regulations.
However some teams, including Williams, have expressed concerns about the implications of allowing teams to buy other squads' chassis off the shelf rather than designing their own cars.
The crux of the matter is not so much whether customer cars should be allowed, but whether teams running them should score points in the constructors' championship.
Spyker is currently taking action against Toro Rosso and Super Aguri, who are alleged to have run customer versions of Red Bull and Honda chassis respectively.
The Prodrive hearing will take place on Wednesday 24 October, with a decision due to be announced the following afternoon.
Oh dear......Friday, 05, October, 2007, 09:57
The FIA Court of Appeal is to make a judgement about Prodrive's entry for the 2008 championship in a hearing in London on 24-25 October.
The case has been brought following an enquiry by the Williams team regarding Prodrive's eligibility to become Formula 1's 12th team.
"Further to the receipt of a letter from the Williams F1 team regarding the legality of the entry of Prodrive F1 in the 2008 FIA Formula One World Championship, the President of the FIA has made a referral to the FIA’s International Court of Appeal (ICA) under Article 1 of the ICA Rules of Procedure," said an FIA statement.
It is understood that the hearing is part of the ongoing debate over the role of customer cars in F1.
Prodrive was picked from a number of potential entrants to take the final spot in the F1 pit lane next season, and has been open about its intention to run a customer chassis.
McLaren has since confirmed that it is intending to provide cars for Prodrive once the team's entry is finalised.
But the deal has been held up by the continued discussions over the new Concorde Agreement, the document that sets out how F1 operates.
It had initially been thought that customer cars – which are currently prohibited – would be permitted under next year's regulations.
However some teams, including Williams, have expressed concerns about the implications of allowing teams to buy other squads' chassis off the shelf rather than designing their own cars.
The crux of the matter is not so much whether customer cars should be allowed, but whether teams running them should score points in the constructors' championship.
Spyker is currently taking action against Toro Rosso and Super Aguri, who are alleged to have run customer versions of Red Bull and Honda chassis respectively.
The Prodrive hearing will take place on Wednesday 24 October, with a decision due to be announced the following afternoon.
Chris
Isn't it fundamentally that Prodrive were to enter next year using a customer chassis under the terms of the new Concorde agreement. The new Concorde agreement was supposed to come into effect next season, but has been put back to the following season. Williams therefore believe Prodrive would be entering under the current Concorde agreement next season, which has no provision for allowing teams to share chassis.
Its all a(nother) load of bo
ocks if you ask me, you cannot award Prodrive a position in F1 and watch them invest millions into preparing for it, only to prevent them entering at the last minute because you yourself havent pulled your finger out and sorted out contracts with the other companies who are also involved!
ocks if you ask me, you cannot award Prodrive a position in F1 and watch them invest millions into preparing for it, only to prevent them entering at the last minute because you yourself havent pulled your finger out and sorted out contracts with the other companies who are also involved!Edited by LocoBlade on Friday 5th October 12:21
Woody said:
Looks like ProDrive might not make it to the grid next year.
Chris
hmmmmmm isnt the rbr chassis that str use just a several year old ferrari chassis??ITV-F1 said:
Spyker is currently taking action against Toro Rosso and Super Aguri, who are alleged to have run customer versions of Red Bull and Honda chassis respectively.
Oh dear......Chris
so obviously under the rules ferrari are allowed to have customer teams but mcmerc obviously are not.
note to spyker owners-
no point persuing that case against torro rosso, they have connections t the red mafia, you try and take action against them and you might find a fine and horses head in ur bed.....
castrolcraig said:
hmmmmmm isnt the rbr chassis that str use just a several year old ferrari chassis??
so obviously under the rules ferrari are allowed to have customer teams but mcmerc obviously are not.
This years STR is this year's RBR chassis with a Ferrari engine in the back, its not related to a Ferrari design (unless Stepney's been in touch so obviously under the rules ferrari are allowed to have customer teams but mcmerc obviously are not.
).Last year's STR was basically the 2005 RBR which in turn was based on the Jaguar chassis that RBR inherited when they took over, but again no Ferrari chassis link AFAIK.
The only "alleged" use of a Ferrari chassis by other teams was the Sauber a few years ago which looked [u]remarkably[/u] similar to the title winning Fezza from the previous year
LocoBlade said:
castrolcraig said:
hmmmmmm isnt the rbr chassis that str use just a several year old ferrari chassis??
so obviously under the rules ferrari are allowed to have customer teams but mcmerc obviously are not.
This years STR is this year's RBR chassis with a Ferrari engine in the back, its not related to a Ferrari design (unless Stepney's been in touch so obviously under the rules ferrari are allowed to have customer teams but mcmerc obviously are not.
).Last year's STR was basically the 2005 RBR which in turn was based on the Jaguar chassis that RBR inherited when they took over, but again no Ferrari chassis link AFAIK.
The only "alleged" use of a Ferrari chassis by other teams was the Sauber a few years ago which looked [u]remarkably[/u] similar to the title winning Fezza from the previous year
bet none of the ferrari fans mention that in this argument
Edited by castrolcraig on Friday 5th October 14:24
10 Pence Short said:
Isn't it fundamentally that Prodrive were to enter next year using a customer chassis under the terms of the new Concorde agreement. The new Concorde agreement was supposed to come into effect next season, but has been put back to the following season. Williams therefore believe Prodrive would be entering under the current Concorde agreement next season, which has no provision for allowing teams to share chassis.
AIUI, the FIA and most everyone else were assuming that the proposed terms of the new CA (this being the one that was hatched by FOM, FIA and Ferrari), which included the provision for customer cars, would be accepted by all current CA signatories commencing in '08.Williams are now baulking at agreeing to the extant language of the '08 CA, because they stand to lose the most if it is implemented.
The current CA expires at the end of this year. There is no requirement that any team continue in F1 next year. Theoretically, the '08 season could be run under the new CA, but without Williams.
ZeeTacoe said:
castrolcraig said:
thanks for clearing that up, but still the engine link is there
bet none of the ferrari fans mention that in this argument
just what have ferrari got to do with this?bet none of the ferrari fans mention that in this argument
Edited by castrolcraig on Friday 5th October 14:24
for action against a possible mcmerc customer team as it wouldnt be a red car.......
castrolcraig said:
ZeeTacoe said:
castrolcraig said:
thanks for clearing that up, but still the engine link is there
bet none of the ferrari fans mention that in this argument
just what have ferrari got to do with this?bet none of the ferrari fans mention that in this argument
Edited by castrolcraig on Friday 5th October 14:24
for action against a possible mcmerc customer team as it wouldnt be a red car.......
I think it was only Mclaren and Toyota that said they would be prepared to supply chassis to other teams.
Chris
rustybin said:
castrolcraig said:
bet none of the ferrari fans mention that in this argument
Anymore than the Toyota fan will mention how strikingly similar the Williams is. What's your point?The isse is that the Torro Rosso is alledged a Red Bull racing car in different colours, and the Super Aguri is last years Honda in different colours.
Then next year you could have the McClaren running in different colours.
I think Williams have a point, although I believe when he first entered F1 he used a customer chassis! If there are points awarded to the "Constructor" then that person should construct a car. What one possibly needs is 3 championships, driver, team and constructor. Both the latter two giving access to points and prize money, but as a team and constructor you'd get more money at the end of the day which is only fair.
Otherwise when the manufacturers pull out of F1 there will be precious few constructors left!
I like the idea of customer chassis, but there is always going to be a conflict of interests when the supplier is another team on the grid. I'd like to see an arrangement where teams such as Prodrive, Super Aguri, STR could go to the likes of Reynard or Lola and ask them to build a car for them - economies of scale with the three teams buying the same chassis would make it more viable than just one team doing it. The teams would then install engines from whichever deal they have struck and develop the car themselves from that point.
Many teams started off with this approach by running chassis from the likes of Matra or March etc, then developing their own cars from that. Tyrell springs to mind as an obvious example.
Many teams started off with this approach by running chassis from the likes of Matra or March etc, then developing their own cars from that. Tyrell springs to mind as an obvious example.
The whole thing is just pathetic.
Formula One these days seems to be run by bean counters and lawyers, rather than by racing teams. As a spectator, seeing Williams F1 whinging, complaining and protesting like this encourages me to wish Prodrive all the very best in F1 next year. Indeed it would be a right shame if they score more points than Williams do.
What a pitiful sight this supposed "pinnacle" of Motor Racing is. They should all be wearing clown suits...
Formula One these days seems to be run by bean counters and lawyers, rather than by racing teams. As a spectator, seeing Williams F1 whinging, complaining and protesting like this encourages me to wish Prodrive all the very best in F1 next year. Indeed it would be a right shame if they score more points than Williams do.
What a pitiful sight this supposed "pinnacle" of Motor Racing is. They should all be wearing clown suits...
Anyone remember the old days of Grand Prix racing......they used to get into their cars and compete against each other on the track in a sort of race mode.....
Customer cars: I seem to remember Rob Walker using a car (Lotus or BRM?) for the likes of Graham Hill if I remember correctly
Off to watch the Superbikes now thats racing....
Customer cars: I seem to remember Rob Walker using a car (Lotus or BRM?) for the likes of Graham Hill if I remember correctly
Off to watch the Superbikes now thats racing....
10 Pence Short said:
Isn't it fundamentally that Prodrive were to enter next year using a customer chassis under the terms of the new Concorde agreement. The new Concorde agreement was supposed to come into effect next season, but has been put back to the following season. Williams therefore believe Prodrive would be entering under the current Concorde agreement next season, which has no provision for allowing teams to share chassis.
Is the FIA the governing court for the CA? I know that the CA requires the teams to defer to the FIA (obviously), but is the CA not a multi-party civil agreement / contract amongst the teams to govern their own behaviour? In which case that might suggest a civil court somewhere would be the place to settle disputes regarding the CA.deevlash said:
PW said:
Given the Super Aguri situation, if worst comes to the worst, would Prodrive be able to compete with the MP4/22?
thats basically exactly what they want to do. I williams win this arguement then they wont be allowed to score points with it.Gassing Station | General Motorsport | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff