McLarens mistake...

[ufoufo]

was not affording Alonso the No1 status in the team. Had they done that and not given in to british media pressure, Alonso would be champion and the team would habve at least had something out of this season - when in fact they had the best car!!!. Hamilton will have many chances in the future to win his championships.

[Riverside]

You may be right but McLaren famously do not have team orders. It doesn't always work to their advantage but it's fairly fundamental to their way of working. Realistically I think it's a goal to aim for rather than something that can be achieved absolutely, but this season it's been somewhat forced down their throat.

I'm not really a McLaren fan but I respect their sticking to their principals under the circumstances. The press today seems to me to suggest they were damned if they did & damned if they didn't anyway. Under those circumstances it becomes very easy to make decisions because the consequences are no longer uncertain.

[tomTVR]

No doubt about it with team orders Mclaren would have one of their men win the drivers championship. There have been 7 GP's this year where LH and FA have finished next to each other in which they could have swapped them over.

Its a good thing not to have team orders, even Ferrari let their drivers battle it out till the last couple of races.

[Ahonen]

ufoufo said:

was not affording Alonso the No1 status in the team. Had they done that and not given in to british media pressure, Alonso would be champion and the team would habve at least had something out of this season - when in fact they had the best car!!!. Hamilton will have many chances in the future to win his championships.

Oh grow up. If you really think that Ron Dennis gives two hoots what the British media thinks then you really shouldn't be allowed out on your own.

I appreciate you're probably quite young, but that's just a daft thing to suggest.

[anonymous-user]

ufoufo said:

was not affording Alonso the No1 status in the team. Had they done that and not given in to british media pressure, Alonso would be champion and the team would habve at least had something out of this season - when in fact they had the best car!!!. Hamilton will have many chances in the future to win his championships.

So, should McLaren retain Alonso's services for 2008, shouldnt Lewis get undisputed #1 and have Alonso play the suporting role for the season as Lewis beat him this year? Is that what you want?

[ufoufo]

Ahonen said:

ufoufo said:

was not affording Alonso the No1 status in the team. Had they done that and not given in to british media pressure, Alonso would be champion and the team would habve at least had something out of this season - when in fact they had the best car!!!. Hamilton will have many chances in the future to win his championships.

Oh grow up. If you really think that Ron Dennis gives two hoots what the British media thinks then you really shouldn't be allowed out on your own.

I appreciate you're probably quite young, but that's just a daft thing to suggest.

What was the point of hiring Alonso if it wasnt for the purpose of winning the championship? Why is Massa happy to play second fiddle? I bet if Massa was british there would be turmoil at ferrari. Out of nowhere, a rookie expects equality or worse preferencial treatment with a double world champion! And soft Ron gives it to him! Well Ron got his reward....

[ufoufo]

johnfelstead said:

ufoufo said:

was not affording Alonso the No1 status in the team. Had they done that and not given in to british media pressure, Alonso would be champion and the team would habve at least had something out of this season - when in fact they had the best car!!!. Hamilton will have many chances in the future to win his championships.

So, should McLaren retain Alonso's services for 2008, shouldnt Lewis get undisputed #1 and have Alonso play the suporting role for the season as Lewis beat him this year? Is that what you want?

No Hamilton as any apprentice plays a supporting role for a few years to gather experience (which he so clearly lacks as evident in the last race) and in time moves up pecking order. Thats the problem with todays youth - they want to run before they can walk.

[sjn2004]

ufoufo said:

johnfelstead said:

ufoufo said:

was not affording Alonso the No1 status in the team. Had they done that and not given in to british media pressure, Alonso would be champion and the team would habve at least had something out of this season - when in fact they had the best car!!!. Hamilton will have many chances in the future to win his championships.

So, should McLaren retain Alonso's services for 2008, shouldnt Lewis get undisputed #1 and have Alonso play the suporting role for the season as Lewis beat him this year? Is that what you want?

No Hamilton as any apprentice plays a supporting role for a few years to gather experience (which he so clearly lacks as evident in the last race) and in time moves up pecking order. Thats the problem with todays youth - they want to run before they can walk.

LH had 6 poles last season, FA had 2...I think LH can run already. Just check MotoGP and see who won this year and how old he is.

[flemke]

ufoufo said:

johnfelstead said:

ufoufo said:

was not affording Alonso the No1 status in the team. Had they done that and not given in to british media pressure, Alonso would be champion and the team would habve at least had something out of this season - when in fact they had the best car!!!. Hamilton will have many chances in the future to win his championships.

So, should McLaren retain Alonso's services for 2008, shouldnt Lewis get undisputed #1 and have Alonso play the suporting role for the season as Lewis beat him this year? Is that what you want?

No Hamilton as any apprentice plays a supporting role for a few years to gather experience (which he so clearly lacks as evident in the last race) and in time moves up pecking order. Thats the problem with todays youth - they want to run before they can walk.

On balance, the guy who wanted to run before he could walk drove better than the world champion this year.
Hamilton suffered two mechanicals this year. First was the wheel nut at the 'ring that caused him to start tenth, when at worst he would have started fourth. That cost him at least five points.
Then he had the puncture in Turkey, which cost him another, say, two.
The only thing you can say about undeserved lost points for Alonso was at Hungary, where he lost, say, four.

As a general rule, most grown-ups favour apprenticeships. In this case, with this team's commitment to equality, and these two drivers' actual driving equality, it is hard to say that Hamilton should have volunteered himself to play second fiddle - especially as Alonso's behaviour grew more and more selfish and juvenile.

[deadslow]

flemke said:

In this case, with this team's commitment to equality

But with both drivers finishing on 'equal' points behind the Ferrari, the tactical naivety of the approach, in a commercial team contest, is underlined.

[timbob]

deadslow said:

flemke said:

In this case, with this team's commitment to equality

But with both drivers finishing on 'equal' points behind the Ferrari, the tactical naivety of the approach, in a commercial team contest, is underlined.

It may be underlined from the point of view that neither of the McLaren drivers won the championship, but Ron runs the team by his principles. There have never been any team orders at McLaren. I think Ron is the type of person who would rather lose a championship by playing fairly than win one by swapping his drivers over to maximise the points of one of them.

[flemke]

deadslow said:

flemke said:

In this case, with this team's commitment to equality

But with both drivers finishing on 'equal' points behind the Ferrari, the tactical naivety of the approach, in a commercial team contest, is underlined.

You say "naivety". That depends on what you value.
There are some people who would say that winning is the only thing that matters.
There are some others who would say that how one conducts oneself is more important than winning.
Giuseppe Farina was the first Formula One World Champion. He was also one of the all-time dirtiest and most unsportsman-like drivers. (I'm not implying that he would have been a favourite of yours, but rather that it would have been more honourable to finish second that year than to have been Pinin Farina's uncle.)

Ron Dennis has said that he believes that, over time, a team that practises equal treatment for its two drivers will win more often, because the competition between the two drivers and, by extension, their two race teams will lift them both up to a level than neither would have achieved on its own.

Yes, if Hamilton had been forced to play the Eddie Irvine, Rubens Barrichello, Felipe Massa lackey role this year, Alonso would have won the title. Then again, if McLaren had not had the extraordinary bad luck of having a defective wheel nut gun, Hamilton would have won the title. In either case, surely Hamilton matured and learned far more this year by being in the thick of it than he would have done by carrying Alonso's jockstrap, which was what the latter seemed to have expected.

The friction between Alonso and Hamilton was inevitable so long as they were both at McLaren. If Hamilton had let Alonso win this year, what would Alonso's position have been next year, as the three-times world champion? Judging from his recent comportment, it is hard to envisage his happily saying, "Okay, Lewis, you served your apprenticeship in '07, now let's be equals."
If you're familiar with bicycle racing, you will know about Bernard Hinault and Greg Lemond. If the team boss does not step in early and establish fairness, things can get well out of hand.

So, no, I would not call it "naivety". Some would have done it differently - fair enough, but if there is one thing that Ron Dennis is not, it is naive.

[micky g]

To be honest I think Massa has had a better season than Raikkonen and I can't help thinking that if he had been ferrari's 'one' he would have won the championship earlier.

I hope he gets some freedom next year.

[megy]

Personally I prefer to see 2 drivers in the same team being given equal chance to win up untill the point that they would not possibly be able to win the chapionship, this is what Mclaren have always said they will do, rightly or wrongly, that is their way, and is MUCH better than a team whos driver is winning a race by a large margin and then has to almost stop between the last corner and the chequerd flag to let his team mate win, not only that, but they did it for 2 consecutive years.

[kevin ritson]

If you had access to a room full of season reviews and time to watch one, which would it be? 1986? 2007? Or 2002, perhaps 2004?

You can criticise Ron, call him naive all you like. But here's a man who understands sporting competition better than most. And amen to that.

[Marki]

ufoufo said:

Out of nowhere, a rookie expects equality or worse preferencial treatment with a double world champion! And soft Ron gives it to him! Well Ron got his reward....

Err i think you will find the "Rookie"in this case proved beyond reasonable doubt that he was more than a match for the double world champion

[rubystone]

What interests me this season is for the first time since 1996, Ferrari truly have allowed both of their drives an equal tilt at the title and what this has proved is that allowing your drivers to compete in this way does not necessarily mean that you damage the team's prospects.

I am sure that if we analyse McLaren's season, we'll see that the reason that one of their drivers did not win the title was down to a few critical decisions - the stewards' decision to demote Alonso in Hungary, or the team's poor strategy in not bringing Hamilton in earlier at Shanghai. None of these incidents, to my mind at least, was caused by the team favouring one driver over the other.

I really enjoyed watching Massa and Raikkonen "unleashed" this season, as much as I enjoyed the two McLaren drivers racing each other. Massa's drive through the field at Silverstone was masterful, for instance.

[Stuismyname]

rubystone said:

What interests me this season is for the first time since 1996, Ferrari truly have allowed both of their drives an equal tilt at the title and what this has proved is that allowing your drivers to compete in this way does not necessarily mean that you damage the team's prospects.

...

I really enjoyed watching Massa and Raikkonen "unleashed" this season.

Agreed. Do you think there will be the same policy next year?

[Mr_Thyroid]

Or they could have changed the tyres before they got down to the sodding canvas.

[deadslow]

flemke said:

deadslow said:

flemke said:

In this case, with this team's commitment to equality

But with both drivers finishing on 'equal' points behind the Ferrari, the tactical naivety of the approach, in a commercial team contest, is underlined.

You say "naivety". That depends on what you value.
[b]There are some people who would say that winning is the only thing that matters.
There are some others who would say that how one conducts oneself is more important than winning. [/b]
Giuseppe Farina was the first Formula One World Champion. He was also one of the all-time dirtiest and most unsportsman-like drivers. (I'm not implying that he would have been a favourite of yours, but rather that it would have been more honourable to finish second that year than to have been Pinin Farina's uncle.)

Ron Dennis has said that he believes that, over time, a team that practises equal treatment for its two drivers will win more often, because the competition between the two drivers and, by extension, their two race teams will lift them both up to a level than neither would have achieved on its own.

Yes, if Hamilton had been forced to play the Eddie Irvine, Rubens Barrichello, Felipe Massa lackey role this year, Alonso would have won the title. Then again, if McLaren had not had the extraordinary bad luck of having a defective wheel nut gun, Hamilton would have won the title. In either case, surely Hamilton matured and learned far more this year by being in the thick of it than he would have done by carrying Alonso's jockstrap, which was what the latter seemed to have expected.

The friction between Alonso and Hamilton was inevitable so long as they were both at McLaren. If Hamilton had let Alonso win this year, what would Alonso's position have been next year, as the three-times world champion? Judging from his recent comportment, it is hard to envisage his happily saying, "Okay, Lewis, you served your apprenticeship in '07, now let's be equals."
If you're familiar with bicycle racing, you will know about Bernard Hinault and Greg Lemond. If the team boss does not step in early and establish fairness, things can get well out of hand.

So, no, I would not call it "naivety". Some would have done it differently - fair enough, but if there is one thing that Ron Dennis is not, it is naive.

I appreciate all you say, but if you miss the race, what's the first question you will ask - "Who won?" , I bet. I can't really believe anyone rushes home to say "Please don't trouble me with the result, how did the teams conduct themselves today?"

Ron ought to have won both championships easily this year He lost both due to dogmatic thinking.

Edited by deadslow on Tuesday 23 October 20:41