McLarens mistake...
Discussion
ph123 said:
I think this is a very interesting post and I don’t think anyone should condemn the original poster’s point though favouring Alonso at the beginning of the year wouldn’t have cut it.
Point is that when everything in competition is about winning, Ron’s principles made McLaren a loser. You don’t get points for style because that’s not the competition. The competition is to be the fastest and to thereby win a WC. If you can’t manage to achieve that aim, then you stand more chance of being defeated.
Isn’t this a lame British problem time and again? It maybe ‘nice’ and principled to present a better standard of competition. The whole objective is to win the competition, not ‘be fair’. Ron’s principle of engendering competition within the team lays to much responsibility upon racers who’s make up is ruthlessly self centred. They would rather smash than come second.
I suggest backing the fastest would be sounder bet. Just think of the year we could have enjoyed had McLaren won; it’s benefits are almost incalculable. But no, we supported Ron’s principles. I think it’s maddening. It’s a cock up.
One further point to consider even at this stage, if Alonso goes to one of the top teams, it does mean that McLaren will have to beat him. So is it a good idea to ditch him? In Ron’s world it will still appeal (to drive Lewis on) but you come close to pressing a self destruct button. Not clever and a better competition – Ferrari v McLaren v Renault (say).
Winning in sport is important. It's why we compete - from tiddlywinks to F1, we want to win.Point is that when everything in competition is about winning, Ron’s principles made McLaren a loser. You don’t get points for style because that’s not the competition. The competition is to be the fastest and to thereby win a WC. If you can’t manage to achieve that aim, then you stand more chance of being defeated.
Isn’t this a lame British problem time and again? It maybe ‘nice’ and principled to present a better standard of competition. The whole objective is to win the competition, not ‘be fair’. Ron’s principle of engendering competition within the team lays to much responsibility upon racers who’s make up is ruthlessly self centred. They would rather smash than come second.
I suggest backing the fastest would be sounder bet. Just think of the year we could have enjoyed had McLaren won; it’s benefits are almost incalculable. But no, we supported Ron’s principles. I think it’s maddening. It’s a cock up.
One further point to consider even at this stage, if Alonso goes to one of the top teams, it does mean that McLaren will have to beat him. So is it a good idea to ditch him? In Ron’s world it will still appeal (to drive Lewis on) but you come close to pressing a self destruct button. Not clever and a better competition – Ferrari v McLaren v Renault (say).
However, in my opinion, principles in sport are more important. It's not just winning, it's how you win.
While the history books may only remember the Schumachers and Todts of this world, those who play up, play up and play the game are those who make winning worthwhile.
It's what separates "us" from "them", and I appreciate that this is probably a uniquely British viewpoint.
ph123 said:
(Oh dear.)
Not oh dear at all. I'm with CJ on this. I've been involved in competitive sport (amateur) all my life and know damn well that winning with integrity is far more important than just winning. Yes I have been beaten by cheats, and it made me f'ing mad at the time, but I can live with that, that pain has long gone and in it's place a pride that I did not need to cheat. I'd prefer no trophies on the sideboard and a stack of friends thank you!
flemke said:
Strangely Brown said:
If If if if if if .... FFS ... IF the wheel gun hadn't jammed he would have come back onto the track in a different position and could have been taken out by someone else. There are an infinite number of possibilities as to what could have happened if...
Just deal with the fact that McLaren cheated and lost the constructors' championship as a result. They lost the drivers' championship because another team was consistently better over the full season. That's it, end of story.
Thanks for once again contributing to a thread.Just deal with the fact that McLaren cheated and lost the constructors' championship as a result. They lost the drivers' championship because another team was consistently better over the full season. That's it, end of story.
Strangely Brown said:
Just accept the fact that McLaren didn't win and move on.
Of course you would say exactly the same if Ferrari had lost both championships after having their points stripped for cheating at Melbourne, their constructor points stripped for using McLaren information (which Coghlan gave to Stepney), and punished for trying to use forbidden tyres. Wouldn't you?It's great that Raikkonen won - I really rate him as a driver, and feel that he has been very cool headed this season and thus deserves it. It's just a shame he is with a team that exhibits extremely questionable values.
ph123 said:
I don't see managing a team whereby efforts get put behind the fastest guy to score maximum points can be seen as cheating.
Could not agree more. Ron's approach is highly commendable, noble, fair (on the drivers),etc - no argument, but he appears to be inflexible and imho, this cost him the championship.There is nothing inherently wrong or unfair with channelling resources into your best option, its just a tactical decision, which RD, apparently is unable to contemplate. I feel RD has gone up a cul-de-sac on this one.
In all team sports, the various strengths and weaknesses of the players and opposition demand a fluidity of approach that seems to elude Dennis.
I'm just getting fed up supporting McL when they could and should win, but insist on being noble losers and martyrs to dogma.
Strangely Brown said:
flemke said:
Strangely Brown said:
If If if if if if .... FFS ... IF the wheel gun hadn't jammed he would have come back onto the track in a different position and could have been taken out by someone else. There are an infinite number of possibilities as to what could have happened if...
Just deal with the fact that McLaren cheated and lost the constructors' championship as a result. They lost the drivers' championship because another team was consistently better over the full season. That's it, end of story.
Thanks for once again contributing to a thread.Just deal with the fact that McLaren cheated and lost the constructors' championship as a result. They lost the drivers' championship because another team was consistently better over the full season. That's it, end of story.
flemke said:
Strangely Brown said:
Well, you can sit and dream about what might have been "if..." until the cows come home but you're not going to change what actually happened. Just accept the fact that McLaren didn't win and move on.
The next time that you are tempted to post something on a forum, you might want to think about first reading the thread and trying to grasp what is going on (if it gets too tough, you could always phone a friend).The OP said:
McLaren's mistake was ... was not affording Alonso the No1 status in the team. Had they done that and not given in to british media pressure, Alonso would be champion and the team would habve at least had something out of this season.
As I said, You can sit and dream about what might have been "if..." until the cows come home...Perhaps you ought to get some idea of what the thread is about yourself eh?
So, if we accept that Mclaren should have put its weight behind the 'fastest' driver to secure the championship, who should that have been?
The OP obviously feels this should have been Alonso, but the respective performances of the drivers suggest that Hamilton was/is equally as fast, perhaps faster, despite him being a 'rookie'.
I'm thinking Alonso wouldn't have been too happy to be told to support Hamilton in securing the WDC....
Edited for spoolling mistoks
The OP obviously feels this should have been Alonso, but the respective performances of the drivers suggest that Hamilton was/is equally as fast, perhaps faster, despite him being a 'rookie'.
I'm thinking Alonso wouldn't have been too happy to be told to support Hamilton in securing the WDC....
Edited for spoolling mistoks
Edited by bugsplat1 on Wednesday 31st October 16:24
ufoufo said:
was not affording Alonso the No1 status in the team.
I think you are missing the fundamental point.Alonso knew that McLaren do not run a no1 status within the team, and joined the team in full knowledge of that. He assumed that he would have no1 status in the team, and did not expect Lewis to be so dominant in his first season.
Considering McLaren have been around much longer than Alonso, i think the mistake is with Alonso.
By letting Senna & Prost fight it out McL won 15 out of 16 races in one season.
Until Ferrari were resurected in 1997 McL WERE the most successful team for GP wins and titles. On that basis their policy of having their drivers fight one another has been successful.
Their mistakes this year have been tactical ones, exactly the same as not changing Kimi's tyre back in 05 at Hockenheim which cost him a points finish there.
A driver is signed by a team to be able to contribute to improving & perfecting the car in testing as well as races, also to provide info for team qualifying, something McL were, so we are told, short of this year.
Until Ferrari were resurected in 1997 McL WERE the most successful team for GP wins and titles. On that basis their policy of having their drivers fight one another has been successful.
Their mistakes this year have been tactical ones, exactly the same as not changing Kimi's tyre back in 05 at Hockenheim which cost him a points finish there.
A driver is signed by a team to be able to contribute to improving & perfecting the car in testing as well as races, also to provide info for team qualifying, something McL were, so we are told, short of this year.
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