Mosley: "Ferrari most important team in F1."

[flemke]

motormania said:

Now then Mr Flemke...

You seem to be a man with his ear close to the ground...

Could there really be a break away series that could stick 2 fingers (or should that be just the one!!) to the Max, Bernie and Ferarri show where by we have Renault, McLaren, Williams, Toyota, Honda and even Red Bull racing on some classic european circuits for real fans of the sport, while the three little pigs already mentioned have their own way in the far east.

If anyone thinks that F1 would be dead with Ferrari are simply talking out their own arse! Just because they have been in the longest does not make them the best, though Max and Bernie think overwise of course.

We want real cars, big fat tyres, PPPOOWWWWEERRRRR as Jeremy Clarkson would say, no fancy wings, and passionate drivers with big balls to drive these monsters in some hair-raising wheel to wheel stuff. Is that not too much to ask for?

The only reason that my ear might be close to the ground is because I fall down a lot.

I don't know any more than you do, but I think there were a number of factors that combined to defeat the GPMA concept.

- As AJS says, the insanity of the bifurcation of US open-wheel racing from a single overarching series into two inferior series that have struggled for a decade would not have been lost on the constructors. The FIA of today are immensely lucky to have blundered into the benefits of a network effect, after having done almost nothing creditable to earn it.
- FOM (Bernie) has got the major circuits tied up in multi-year contracts. Sure, there are alternative circuits, but, to take but one example, where would the alternative British GP be held? Brands is a gorgeous place to drive, but it cannot begin to handle the road traffic, the audience, the paddock requirements, or the media requirements. The fact that Bernie has not come close to staging a race there despite his antipathy towards the BRDC makes clear that there are almost insuperable issues with alternative circuits, and this is in one of the most developed target markets.
- FOM also have the media contracts. ITV wouldn't be able to show the competitor series, but, by definition, they were willing to pay more for the rights than was any other British broadcaster. The GPMA again would have to accept second best, which could be a long way from first best.
- Like it or not, Ferrari are a huge draw for ignorant neophyte race-goers - and it is these persons who fill many of the seats at races, watch on telly, and, especially, could be influenced in their decision about what new car or computer to buy.
The classic was the first Chinese GP. The grandstands were bright red - not with commie flags, but with Ferrari flags, waved by perfectly decent folk who had no idea what was going on, except that it was a big event and Ferrari were going to be there.
To run a series without Ferrari would have - during the early years - a marked effect on its commercial impact.
- The FIA own the copyright to "Formula One".
- There was no assurance that, after their current contracts ran out, the best drivers would continue to compete in the GPMA series. Without those who either are or are built up by the media to be the best drivers, you'll never have the "best" series.
- Last but, as always, not least, we have the political dimension.
The FIA we think of is the regulator of world motorsport. That, however, is only half of the FIA's self-defined remit. The other half is public road driving.
Many governments and bureaucracies appear to view the FIA as the one world class authority on road driving and transport. FIA hacks work with governments; they work very closely with our pals the Brussels louts, for example.
These same governments and transportation bureaucrats have a near-stranglehold over the "stakeholders" of road driving, of which perhaps the most vulnerable, exposed stakeholders are the car manufacturers, such as BMW, Honda, Mercedes, Toyota, Renault...
It is so very easy to imagine the FIA's acting to punish and then undermine the carmakers' main businesses because they had defied the FIA and broken away from its authoritarian (notice that I don't say, "fascistic", which would be unkind) grip.

I have seen nothing tangible about this last element of potential threat to the GPMA business plan, but if one knows the way that the world works, one will recognise the potency of attacking the GPMA members where it would hurt the most.

[jasonc]

Like it or not, Ferrari is hugely important to the commercial interests of F1. As are the other major team, but Ferrari most of all. Not saying it is right or fair or anything, but it is a fact.

[AJS-]

FourWheelDrift said:

No you cannot compare the old F5000 to any new big banger single seater series....teams could buy customer chassis and engines. Which is what I was proposing, calling it F5000 was just a name, I could have called it Formula Chimpanzee, if I had you wouldn't have given the analogy with the old F5000 series at all.

My F5000 today, or rather Formula Chimpanzee would be the same as F1/F5000 was in the 1970's. Affordable, close, action filled racing With none of excess baggage of modern F1.

Hard not to see a parallel with CART/Champ Car at least.
I hope you're right, but I think it would hit the buffers at the stage of trying to attract new sponsors without big name drivers, and/or trying to attract drivers without big name sponsors.

It would take a group of top teams, drivers and manufacturers to all go for it at the right time and so long as Bernie has a stranglehold on all the top teams and drivers I don't see that happening.

I'd love to be proved wrong.

[AJS-]

flemke said:

- FOM (Bernie) has got the major circuits tied up in multi-year contracts. Sure, there are alternative circuits, but, to take but one example, where would the alternative British GP be held? Brands is a gorgeous place to drive, but it cannot begin to handle the road traffic, the audience, the paddock requirements, or the media requirements. The fact that Bernie has not come close to staging a race there despite his antipathy towards the BRDC makes clear that there are almost insuperable issues with alternative circuits, and this is in one of the most developed target markets.

I do think the circuits thing is overcomeable. CART and BTCC manage fine at Brands and worse equipped, Donnington is good. It would have to be part and parcel of any new series that they're not primadonna film stars locked away in motorhomes a mile from anything resembling a fan. Similarly the teams would have to get used to running cars from adequate garages such as you find at a racing circuit, as opposed to the excessively plush garages they "need" for modern GP. No bad thing IMO.

If the series took off then I'd love to see circuits like Imola, Spa and Silverstone who are a bit marginal on the modern GP calendar say off to Bernie and join a new series. Sadly this isn't likely if they've just spent N million £ making upgrading to GP standard.

[flemke]

AJS- said:

flemke said:

- FOM (Bernie) has got the major circuits tied up in multi-year contracts. Sure, there are alternative circuits, but, to take but one example, where would the alternative British GP be held? Brands is a gorgeous place to drive, but it cannot begin to handle the road traffic, the audience, the paddock requirements, or the media requirements. The fact that Bernie has not come close to staging a race there despite his antipathy towards the BRDC makes clear that there are almost insuperable issues with alternative circuits, and this is in one of the most developed target markets.

I do think the circuits thing is overcomeable. CART and BTCC manage fine at Brands and worse equipped, Donnington is good. It would have to be part and parcel of any new series that they're not primadonna film stars locked away in motorhomes a mile from anything resembling a fan. Similarly the teams would have to get used to running cars from adequate garages such as you find at a racing circuit, as opposed to the excessively plush garages they "need" for modern GP. No bad thing IMO.

If the series took off then I'd love to see circuits like Imola, Spa and Silverstone who are a bit marginal on the modern GP calendar say off to Bernie and join a new series. Sadly this isn't likely if they've just spent N million £ making upgrading to GP standard.

Those circuits cannot compete on anything like the scale required by F1 media, sponsors and fans.
After the glorious '93 Euro GP at Donington, Bernie offered Tom Wheatcroft the chance to run another in '94. Wheatcroft declined, because he had lost so much money the first time.

CART, BTCC and similar are the minor leagues when it comes to the infrastructure necessary to run a GP, which is why it's nearly become infeasible for Montreal, Magny-Cours, Silverstone and Spa.
Bernie's cut certainly has had something to do with that, but the GPMA weren't going to run the show for free themselves.

[Derek Smith]

flemke said:

After the glorious '93 Euro GP at Donington, Bernie offered Tom Wheatcroft the chance to run another in '94. Wheatcroft declined, because he had lost so much money the first time.

I can't help but think the cost of putting on a GP is the weak point of the whole organisation. Circuits look for returns and will not be too happy, as Wheatcroft demonstrated, with subsidising Bernie. The figures are frighteningly massive. A small percentage drop in returns could spell disaster. And, of course, if you make a big profit then Bernie will want you to reinvest the money. At the moment it is the classic 'only game in town' so the big investors like the international car manufacturers have to play according to the rules. But as the demands become greater I can't help thinking that there needs only to be a small downturn in the world markets for F1 to become unviable. A bit like Magarathea. I can see Bernie as Slatibartfast being controlled by mice.

The move eastwards is, in my mind, far from being a sign of how healthy F1 is but more of how expansion is a necessity. Once new countries willing to foot the ever increasing bill run out then F1 will have to change radically.

For all the international aspirations of the sport, F1 has, historically, really been a European championship with occasional freebees to foreign climes. Australia and Canada are best described as far away Europe. The middle and far east enthusiasm for the sport is not based on anything historical. There's no history of the sport out in these places and it could all disappear as quickly as it came.

Those first races in '93 with Senna on fire at Donnington and then at Canada, where his remarkable first lap was even more outstanding, are good to remember.

[AJS-]

flemke said:

CART, BTCC and similar are the minor leagues when it comes to the infrastructure necessary to run a GP, which is why it's nearly become infeasible for Montreal, Magny-Cours, Silverstone and Spa.
Bernie's cut certainly has had something to do with that, but the GPMA weren't going to run the show for free themselves.

Undeniably but I think they are going to shoot themselves in the foot with that. CART and BTCC get live TV, decent crowds and run fairly technical cars, DTM and GT cars make do with the facilities they've got at Zolder and Spa without complaining.

F1 is the only series that requires these elaborate facilities, and none of it really brings any benefit to the fan.

[rubystone]

MrKipling43 said:

[rubystone]

I love the idea of a "breakaway" formula. But with most circuits not making any money whatsoever, even with out BCE to drain their coffers, who'd risk the income they do receive from FIA sanctioned events, to cut their ties with FOM and sign up with a series whose primary members are answerable to their shareholders first.

Flemke has pretty much summed up the reasons why any breakaway series is unlikely to gather enough momentum to usurp the status quo.

Anyway, Singapore gives me the opportunity to visit a good friend some 12 years after I first promised I'd visit him

[motormania]

But surely Mercedes-Benz, Toyota, Honda, Renault working together are a far stronger group financially than even Bernie could ever hope to be?

Just because Bernie charges circuits vast sums of money to keep his personal family trust healthy does not mean that the big four above have to either.

I would welcome a breakaway championship, and to be honest, just becasue Bernie and the FIA have the commercial rights to the name Formula 1 does not make their championship the best.

What about WGPC The World Grand Prix Championship, got a nice ring to it...

[rubystone]

motormania said:

But surely Mercedes-Benz, Toyota, Honda, Renault working together are a far stronger group financially than even Bernie could ever hope to be?

Just because Bernie charges circuits vast sums of money to keep his personal family trust healthy does not mean that the big four above have to either.

I would welcome a breakaway championship, and to be honest, just becasue Bernie and the FIA have the commercial rights to the name Formula 1 does not make their championship the best.

What about WGPC The World Grand Prix Championship, got a nice ring to it...

IIRC CVC bought F1 from FOM/Bernie last year? Whilst he's CEO, he doesn't "own" F1 any more. Equally though, CVC know that he runs it far better than they could and will leave him to do that for as long as he wants to.

The point I was trying to make is that the first thing to be slashed should we head into global recession are motorsport budgets and it's a fair bet that when one leaves, others will follow.

[thewave]

I even thought the A1GP would a realistic takeover target, however, Ferrari have that all sewn up too.

Goes to show, FIA are happy to throw everything to the Italians.

[motormania]

Being the cynic that we all are, am I the only one who thinks the A1GP Ferrari partnership has only come about as a way for the FIA to keep A1GP in place from becoming the potential rival to F1?

[Derek Smith]

rubystone said:

The point I was trying to make is that the first thing to be slashed should we head into global recession are motorsport budgets and it's a fair bet that when one leaves, others will follow.

The odd thing is that despite us being in, or perhaps on the tail end of, a global boom, it's been some time since there has been a full grid. In the event that the wheel does come off - and that's as inevitable as another asteroid hit, just more likely to be sooner - which teams would falter? I would assume that it would be the big car manufacturers so the front running teams, and those with Honda engines as well, might well disappear. Or would it be that they would just slash their budgets?

There's been that new stable engine agreement, where in theory engines will remain the same for 800 years (although I might have misread the fine print) which, also in theory, will save a few bob but I can't see how. Surely the R&D for extra bhp will stay the same and, if other stand still, those with just 10bhp more, or who chose other routes to faster cars, will still win, forcing the minnows to invest more?

The important thing is not how much the big companies are willing to invest but how good the racing is. F1 will survive. They might just have to revert to DFVs.

[AJS-]

This engine development ruling is bizarre.

It will surely lead to massive development in marginal engine areas like fuel and electronics, and even more focus on aerodynamic development, which is arguably what's already killing the sport. Why do they want to do that?

It will also mean that whoever has the best engine next year will have the best engine for the next 10 years.


Basically I can't see this lasting beyond 2 seasons before everyone realises just what a stupid idea it it.

[Derek Smith]

AJS- said:

This engine development ruling is bizarre. Basically I can't see this lasting beyond 2 seasons before everyone realises just what a stupid idea it it.

Name one of the FIA's stupid ideas that only lasted two years. The wierd and wonderful qualifying farces were not stupid, they were totally off the wall.