Alonso in 2008 - 'the latest'
Discussion
I'd like to refer you all to this post I wrote in 'Alonso to where? The definitive post':
http://www.crash.net/motorsport/f1/news/156580-0/w...
Mrkipling43 said:
Unlikely, but here's what I'd do:
Toyota buy Alonso out of McLaren contract.
Rebrand Williams Toyota as Williams Lexus and put Alonso in there with a bit more funding coming from Japan.
That way they could have a world champion racing for Lexus, which would mean that when Williams (yet again) comprehensively whoop Toyota, this time with a double WDC it's beneficial rather than embarrassing. Extra money from Japan could turn Williams back into a World Championship contending squad.
Having Williams running Lexus engines would mean the performance of the two 'works' teams would fit with the positioning of Toyota's brands.
How about that for marketing.
and now, this news story:Toyota buy Alonso out of McLaren contract.
Rebrand Williams Toyota as Williams Lexus and put Alonso in there with a bit more funding coming from Japan.
That way they could have a world champion racing for Lexus, which would mean that when Williams (yet again) comprehensively whoop Toyota, this time with a double WDC it's beneficial rather than embarrassing. Extra money from Japan could turn Williams back into a World Championship contending squad.
Having Williams running Lexus engines would mean the performance of the two 'works' teams would fit with the positioning of Toyota's brands.
How about that for marketing.
http://www.crash.net/motorsport/f1/news/156580-0/w...
MrKipling43 said:
I'd like to refer you all to this post I wrote in 'Alonso to where? The definitive post':
http://www.crash.net/motorsport/f1/news/156580-0/w...
Good call but this story says its only to allow Ferrari to pick Alonso for 2009. You forgot that bit!.Mrkipling43 said:
Unlikely, but here's what I'd do:
Toyota buy Alonso out of McLaren contract.
Rebrand Williams Toyota as Williams Lexus and put Alonso in there with a bit more funding coming from Japan.
That way they could have a world champion racing for Lexus, which would mean that when Williams (yet again) comprehensively whoop Toyota, this time with a double WDC it's beneficial rather than embarrassing. Extra money from Japan could turn Williams back into a World Championship contending squad.
Having Williams running Lexus engines would mean the performance of the two 'works' teams would fit with the positioning of Toyota's brands.
How about that for marketing.
and now, this news story:Toyota buy Alonso out of McLaren contract.
Rebrand Williams Toyota as Williams Lexus and put Alonso in there with a bit more funding coming from Japan.
That way they could have a world champion racing for Lexus, which would mean that when Williams (yet again) comprehensively whoop Toyota, this time with a double WDC it's beneficial rather than embarrassing. Extra money from Japan could turn Williams back into a World Championship contending squad.
Having Williams running Lexus engines would mean the performance of the two 'works' teams would fit with the positioning of Toyota's brands.
How about that for marketing.
http://www.crash.net/motorsport/f1/news/156580-0/w...
there was a good what if article in autosport last week stating that alonso to ferrari in 2009 was a widely known paddock rumour and luca thinks kimi/fernando would be a dream driver package at modena. massa is managed by todt jr so if he stays at ferrari for 2009 or goes, at least one todt family member is happy.
so it begs the question, who would want alonso for just one single season? so the article continues, BMW seem fairly happy with their lot, the BAR problems are seemingly car related not driver related so spending huge chunks of cash on alonso might not be ebst business sense. Spyker (or Force India F1
) cant afford him, neither can Super Aguri, Toro Rosso seem to have a driver development role and they would surely put him in RBR, so its really Williams, Red Bull or Renault.
A link back up with Flav would be ideal for all parties concerned, I cant see Red Bull putting up the cash as both drivers appear settled and there is not much from the team that gives the impresion they are dissatisfied with the performance of either driver this year....and then there is Williams...who are a possibility but i cant see Alonso going there even if it is just for a season as he will want a car that does his ability justice and personally i dont think that the williams will give the opportunity to fight for victories...
my money is on Renault, as i said previously, i thought the kovalinen swop was the most likely scenario?
an interesting article.
so it begs the question, who would want alonso for just one single season? so the article continues, BMW seem fairly happy with their lot, the BAR problems are seemingly car related not driver related so spending huge chunks of cash on alonso might not be ebst business sense. Spyker (or Force India F1
) cant afford him, neither can Super Aguri, Toro Rosso seem to have a driver development role and they would surely put him in RBR, so its really Williams, Red Bull or Renault. A link back up with Flav would be ideal for all parties concerned, I cant see Red Bull putting up the cash as both drivers appear settled and there is not much from the team that gives the impresion they are dissatisfied with the performance of either driver this year....and then there is Williams...who are a possibility but i cant see Alonso going there even if it is just for a season as he will want a car that does his ability justice and personally i dont think that the williams will give the opportunity to fight for victories...
my money is on Renault, as i said previously, i thought the kovalinen swop was the most likely scenario?
an interesting article.
The Hypno-Toad said:
MrKipling43 said:
I'd like to refer you all to this post I wrote in 'Alonso to where? The definitive post':
http://www.crash.net/motorsport/f1/news/156580-0/w...
Good call but this story says its only to allow Ferrari to pick Alonso for 2009. You forgot that bit!.Mrkipling43 said:
Unlikely, but here's what I'd do:
Toyota buy Alonso out of McLaren contract.
Rebrand Williams Toyota as Williams Lexus and put Alonso in there with a bit more funding coming from Japan.
That way they could have a world champion racing for Lexus, which would mean that when Williams (yet again) comprehensively whoop Toyota, this time with a double WDC it's beneficial rather than embarrassing. Extra money from Japan could turn Williams back into a World Championship contending squad.
Having Williams running Lexus engines would mean the performance of the two 'works' teams would fit with the positioning of Toyota's brands.
How about that for marketing.
and now, this news story:Toyota buy Alonso out of McLaren contract.
Rebrand Williams Toyota as Williams Lexus and put Alonso in there with a bit more funding coming from Japan.
That way they could have a world champion racing for Lexus, which would mean that when Williams (yet again) comprehensively whoop Toyota, this time with a double WDC it's beneficial rather than embarrassing. Extra money from Japan could turn Williams back into a World Championship contending squad.
Having Williams running Lexus engines would mean the performance of the two 'works' teams would fit with the positioning of Toyota's brands.
How about that for marketing.
http://www.crash.net/motorsport/f1/news/156580-0/w...
Anyway, I'm writing a column at the moment that goes into it much more deeply - I'd be interested to hear what people think when it goes up with a full explanation of the benefits for each party and why (I think) it would make more sense for Alonso, Toyota and Williams to make this work than it would for Alonso to go to Ferrari.
I'll post a link when it goes up.
Well if that happens it'll consign everything that I overheard at the Dog and Duck Woking High Street to the dustbin then and it will make a document that Alonso signed some weeks ago absolutely worthless (although having been stuffed myself over an engagement undertaken on the back of such a document, I know to my cost how worthless these types of document actually are!).
skinny said:
i very much doubt a kovvy swap with alonso - you don't want two drivers each with only one seasons experience in a team challenging for the world titles
it would make sense to me, set foundations for greater things? both lewis and kovvy have proved they are deserving of a top drive and i believe they are good friends having met each other in previous championships.f1 teams need to learn from football teams that you dont always buy the best and get immediate success, you can nurture drivers through the ranks ala lewis and get success through dedication and perseverance. granted it might mean a lean year or two but it works in football. Man Utd dominated with home grown kids like Scholes, Giggs, Neville etc after a few years without winning much.
If I were Ron I would be planning for 2009 and onwards now, get Kovvy to team up with Lewis, get a real team together, mutual trust, mutual respect, strong relationships between team and drivers and then watch them thrash the unsettled drivers like Alonso and Massa...
good things do come to those who wait.
MrKipling43 said:
All sounds good, works for all and it will also be good to see a on form driver in a lesser teamI would love to see this for a few reasons;
I liked FA in previous years, with only this year showing himself to be a diva of Mariah Carey status (albeit not as good looking), he clearly expects a lot done for him, and when this happens he doesnt fail to perform, he is definately a talented driver, even though he whinges and was LH's arch rival (which is maybe a large reason why so many people turned against him).
I would LOVE to see Williams back at the front of the field again and who knows, winning races again would be pretty good, they had some good races this year, but always out of the news, so maybe with FA in their car, and some money from Toyota they could be back to where they belong.
It would be another car for Ferrari to centend with.
I liked FA in previous years, with only this year showing himself to be a diva of Mariah Carey status (albeit not as good looking), he clearly expects a lot done for him, and when this happens he doesnt fail to perform, he is definately a talented driver, even though he whinges and was LH's arch rival (which is maybe a large reason why so many people turned against him).
I would LOVE to see Williams back at the front of the field again and who knows, winning races again would be pretty good, they had some good races this year, but always out of the news, so maybe with FA in their car, and some money from Toyota they could be back to where they belong.
It would be another car for Ferrari to centend with.
pablo said:
there was a good what if article in autosport last week stating that alonso to ferrari in 2009 was a widely known paddock rumour and luca thinks kimi/fernando would be a dream driver package at modena.
Eh? That makes two No.1 drivers - which is something that Alonso didn't like this year & why Kimi won this year. FA should beg forgiveness from St Dennis and superglue his behind into a McLaren for another season.
It would give him the best option for regaining his crown. No other team is going to come closer to slogging it out with Ferrari, who will surly be even stronger next season. The only fly in the ointment is Hamilton. But age and experience should give him the edge there.Besides, FA staying is not what Hamilton wants, and to be wrong footed from the start of the season would be a great coup for FA.
It would give him the best option for regaining his crown. No other team is going to come closer to slogging it out with Ferrari, who will surly be even stronger next season. The only fly in the ointment is Hamilton. But age and experience should give him the edge there.Besides, FA staying is not what Hamilton wants, and to be wrong footed from the start of the season would be a great coup for FA.
MrKipling43 said:
Very good article Mr Kipling, here's my take on this.Toyota and Alonso are both approaching crossroads.
Toyota, despite the vast pockets, cannot carry on like this forever. Paying ‘superstar’ designers with their own private jet to and from Germany who then produce a car which bears a strikingly rebalance to the previous years Ferrari is not a good business decision. Hiring a driver in the vain hope that he might be as good as his brother and paying him $20million to drive like my Gran also does not make a great deal of sense. The amount of money that Toyota have poured into this project since 2002 is simply astounding. Their budget dwarfs everyone except the big two and the wages for the technicians who are prepared to move to Germany are the most generous in the sport. The resources they have should have insured at least one victory by now but each season drags by with only the slightest possibility of a point or two. At some stage, someone back in Japan, will go,
“Hang on, why are we bothering to do this?”
There would appear to be a faction back in homeland who feel that going back to Le Mans, which for the company is unfinished business, with an electric hybrid would make much more sense. It would link in with their new product range and the opposition would be less. Winning with a hybrid would make as big a splash as Audi did with the diesel and would result in a major marketing coup. It would also work out considerably cheaper. The signs would seem to be pointing to Toyotas continuing participation in F1 as a constructor being in doubt. Maybe it all boils down to who blinks first, them or Honda. It would seem that beating the other Japanese opposition is the first order of business with regard to Toyota.
In the commercial world Toyota have put great faith in their management system and it is envied throughout the motor industry. But does it cut the mustard in the cut and trust world of F1, when time is of the essence? If you look at all the really successful teams back through the history of F1 nobody has ever won by managing by committee. Even today, in the world of corporate success, when you think of Mclaren, Williams or Ferrari you think of Jean, Frank or Ron. Of course they have a number of trusted team members and lieutenants below them but at the end of the day it all comes down to the decision of one man. Would Lotus have been so successful if it wasn’t for Colin at the helm? What Toyota need is one man at the top to say yes or no. I truly believe that until they recognise this they won’t attract either a top name driver or designer unless they are looking to improve their pension.
Their other major problem is their location. Most of the major engineers in this game are British and a lot would not want to move to Germany no matter what gelt they were offered. One leading F1 figure has told me that Toyota would poach all the best staff if they moved to the UK, purely on the wages that they pay. So why would Alonso go there?
The only possible reason would be for the money and for the opportunity to ‘do a Schui’ and turn an uncompetitive team into World Champions. To do this he would need to bring with him a strong management team to shake up the entire squad. He would be able to pick his team mate (which has been his principal problem this season.) and how the car would be designed and set up in order to match his driving style. He would also of course, be the Chosen One, which at the moment his ego badly needs. But how many years would take to turn this outfit around? And how long will he want his career to drag on if he’s looking bad? Or would he just jump ship to Ferrari after a couple of year of trailing around at the back. I am not a Schumacher fan but that’s where I do have respect for him. He jumped into a totally uncompetitive car and turned it around. Has Alonso either got the patience or the temperament to do this?
But let’s just forget about Toyota for the moment, where seriously is Alonso going to go? The rumour that he’s going to Ferrari in 2009 seems to me to be ridiculous. The whole point of leaving Mclaren is that he can’t stand not being number one. His self belief seems to be based on the idea that he must be able to beat his team mate. Does he really want to put himself through the torture of trying to fight a really competitive team mate in Kimi? I know this rumour refuses to go away but people who are closer to the scene are convinced and maybe they are right. But if one of the drivers does get the push, given they both have major deals, which is going to walk? I just can’t see it.
For next year the only people who have water tight contracts are Kimi, Massa and Lewis. Everyone else could be dropped, swapped or regulated to the test team. If the Ferrari story is true and he does want a one year deal where would be best?
Renault is out because they appeat to want a three year deal, which leaves Toyota, Red Bull, Honda and BMW. Honda need a star designer and fast, the disaster of this year will take at least a season to get back from and the driving strength has not got the know how to develop a racing winning car. They could afford Alonso but would he want to take the risk, the same situation as Toyota really and they seem to be offering more money.
BMW could afford him and the car just needs that extra push to become a race winner. BMW seem to be gaining on the horse power (interesting that they kept the roll bar ‘horns’ which are useful but produce lots of drag while everyone else ditched them this season. That would suggest they have a little extra power.) And the chassis is obviously useful. Both Heidfeld and Kubica would seem to be imbedded but if Alonso is on the market could they resist him?
Red Bull are still re-grouping under Adrian Newey but one day he will develop a race winning car. They have the money to afford Alonso but would they only want him for one year? Up until today I would have thought this would have been the most likely. Red Bull has so many good drivers in process that if it all went wrong they would be able to find a driver to replace Fernando quite promptly. And if the car is a race winner then he might persuaded to stay. If the car is average it would keep him in the frame if he wanted to go to Ferrari. Only if the 08 car is a disaster would he look bad and no doubt we would be in a teddy/pram/ejection interface.
This brings us back to Toyota. How’s this for a scenario.
Williams, it would appear, are in serious financial trouble again. How would it be if Toyota buy Frank out in the close season and rebrand the team as Lexus, as Mr Kipling has suggested. They get Alonso, this years car has not been bad and with a bit of Fernando’s fairy dust and a bigger budget from Japan its successor might become very good. They then get two factory teams in F1 and if Toyota1 still don’t cut the mustard they could finally close that down and pump all the resources into Didcot. If you were Alonso, where would you go? A team that’s won Jack in 5 years and has wasted one of the biggest pay cheques in the sport. Or would you go to the team that know how to win World Championships and would probably offer you a one year deal with you if you wanted to jump ship to Ferrari? Remember it could even benefit Ron as Rosberg could go back the other way as part of a swap deal.
The more you think about this the more it makes sense, especially if more resources are pumped into Williams from Japan in the short term. But if something doesn’t change soon Toyota’s days in F1 has a constuctor must be numbered. If your entire marketing campaign is based around the phrase "The Car in Front is a Toyota," at some stage it has to be.
Edited by The Hypno-Toad on Monday 29th October 21:50
Today's Times has it right - no incentive to join any other team that has a decent seat available - pragmatic F1 will see him at Mclaren next year.
Why go to Toyota - underachievers? Will Renault want to buy him out after he dumped them? Mclaren have Spanish sponsors whose contracts will surely be separate? Ferrari have contracted drivers including a world champion. Honda - persist with Button! Williams are sadly nearly back there with Spyker etc (which is why Frank won't agree to customer teams - if he was one of course.......)
Never say never and contract is a word F1 doesnt really understand but common sense appears to say lets kiss and make up and get on with it.
Why go to Toyota - underachievers? Will Renault want to buy him out after he dumped them? Mclaren have Spanish sponsors whose contracts will surely be separate? Ferrari have contracted drivers including a world champion. Honda - persist with Button! Williams are sadly nearly back there with Spyker etc (which is why Frank won't agree to customer teams - if he was one of course.......)
Never say never and contract is a word F1 doesnt really understand but common sense appears to say lets kiss and make up and get on with it.
mdm123 said:
kenthardy said:
Williams are sadly nearly back there with Spyker etc (which is why Frank won't agree to customer teams - if he was one of course.......)
and i though Williams came 4th this yearI've just had another thought, inspired by Hypno-Toad's ideas about completely scrapping the Toyota F1 team once they'd implemented my Lexus/Williams idea - it might also make sense to massively scale back the Toyota operation and run it as a Toro Rosso style 'Junior' team, only actually upgrading drivers to the Williams Lexus operation when they're good enough (rather than just saying they will like Red Bell).
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