What if 'McLaren' are found innocent in a proper court?
Discussion
Just had a thought... it hurt a bit.
Anyway.
What with all the waves being made in F1, I'd kinda forgotten that this spying scandal is actually being dealt with in the 'Real' courts (albeit in Italy) too.
What effect would it have on the FIA if the court of law (the real powers) found McLaren innocent?
To say that Max would look a bit of a fool is rather of an understatement!
Thoughts?
Anyway.
What with all the waves being made in F1, I'd kinda forgotten that this spying scandal is actually being dealt with in the 'Real' courts (albeit in Italy) too.
What effect would it have on the FIA if the court of law (the real powers) found McLaren innocent?
To say that Max would look a bit of a fool is rather of an understatement!
Thoughts?
I do now know what charges the Italian courts are charging McLaren for.
ButI do know that in an English court of law McLaren would have been found innocent, as there was no evidence that they:
a) gained a competitive advantage from being given information by Ferrari
b) brought the sport into disrepute
No evidence at all. It would be laughed out of court. In fact it wouldn't even have reached court.
Even now Mosley still "suspects" it, even though it has been dealt with in his own kangaroo court. He is still stirring about it. The individual is a complete disgrace.
ETA: All the teams sign up to the FIA's sporting code. This is in no way related to the real legal system, and as such whatever Max wants, will happen, and there's nowt you can do about it. It is simply Max's microcosmic megalomaniac's playground. He is a very clever man, not to be underestimated, and he knows how to manipulate key people and twist meanings (after all, he is a silk)
ButI do know that in an English court of law McLaren would have been found innocent, as there was no evidence that they:
a) gained a competitive advantage from being given information by Ferrari
b) brought the sport into disrepute
No evidence at all. It would be laughed out of court. In fact it wouldn't even have reached court.
Even now Mosley still "suspects" it, even though it has been dealt with in his own kangaroo court. He is still stirring about it. The individual is a complete disgrace.
ETA: All the teams sign up to the FIA's sporting code. This is in no way related to the real legal system, and as such whatever Max wants, will happen, and there's nowt you can do about it. It is simply Max's microcosmic megalomaniac's playground. He is a very clever man, not to be underestimated, and he knows how to manipulate key people and twist meanings (after all, he is a silk)
Edited by jacobyte on Wednesday 31st October 16:48
Does not the e-mail exchange between FA & PdlR describe testing a gas compound used by Ferrari to fill it's tyres ?
Perhaps one of our racers can enlighten us as to what is the usual method of inflating race tyres.
Given that some science is used here to provide heat and grip (and durability for long runs) what significance does the knowledge that a rival uses a different method of tyre inflation have ?
Can someone provide a glimpse of the science please?
I recall Ross B saying that in 05 Ferrari could not keep heat in their Bridgestones which is why they lost out big time to the Michelin runners.
Perhaps one of our racers can enlighten us as to what is the usual method of inflating race tyres.
Given that some science is used here to provide heat and grip (and durability for long runs) what significance does the knowledge that a rival uses a different method of tyre inflation have ?
Can someone provide a glimpse of the science please?
I recall Ross B saying that in 05 Ferrari could not keep heat in their Bridgestones which is why they lost out big time to the Michelin runners.
Who supplies ALL tyres in F!1 these days air cooled said:
Does not the e-mail exchange between FA & PdlR describe testing a gas compound used by Ferrari to fill it's tyres ?
Perhaps one of our racers can enlighten us as to what is the usual method of inflating race tyres.
Most racing tyres are filled using Nitrogen rather than air, since the lower the water content in the gas they use to fill up the tyres, the less the tyres are susceptible to expansion and contraction as they heat up and cool down.Perhaps one of our racers can enlighten us as to what is the usual method of inflating race tyres.
Also, I seriously doubt that the teams could have too much control over this, since the tyres are fitted to the rims by Bridgestone at the circuit.
Other than that, perhaps helium could be used to reduce rotating mass?
Edited by MrKipling43 on Wednesday 31st October 17:46
MrKipling43 said:
air cooled said:
Does not the e-mail exchange between FA & PdlR describe testing a gas compound used by Ferrari to fill it's tyres ?
Perhaps one of our racers can enlighten us as to what is the usual method of inflating race tyres.
Most racing tyres are filled using Nitrogen rather than air, since the lower the water content in the gas they use to fill up the tyres, the less the tyres are susceptible to expansion and contraction as they heat up and cool down.Perhaps one of our racers can enlighten us as to what is the usual method of inflating race tyres.
Also, I seriously doubt that the teams could have too much control over this, since the tyres are fitted to the rims by Bridgestone at the circuit.
Other than that, perhaps helium could be used to reduce rotating mass?
Edited by MrKipling43 on Wednesday 31st October 17:46
jacobyte said:
ETA: All the teams sign up to the FIA's sporting code. This is in no way related to the real legal system, and as such whatever Max wants, will happen, and there's nowt you can do about it. It is simply Max's microcosmic megalomaniac's playground. He is a very clever man, not to be underestimated, and he knows how to manipulate key people and twist meanings (after all, he is a silk)
My understanding is that the FIA bows to the courts of France in extremis, so there is a further right of appeal beyond the FIA, only McLaren haven't opted to take it.Riverside said:
The type of gas was one of the items blanked out unsuccessfully in the FIAs initial transcript pdfs.
Wasnt it something daft like Carbon Dioxide or a similar common as muck gas? Hardly ground breaking stuff and I can't imagine it hasnt been tried before by each team given that its another commonly available inert gas, so I suspect it was simply a case of Alonso / PDLR not really understanding the information they'd been given and thinking they'd been given some secret data when in fact it had probably been considered and rejected already by the team's tyre technicians.Edited by LocoBlade on Wednesday 31st October 20:22
skwdenyer said:
jacobyte said:
ETA: All the teams sign up to the FIA's sporting code. This is in no way related to the real legal system, and as such whatever Max wants, will happen, and there's nowt you can do about it. It is simply Max's microcosmic megalomaniac's playground. He is a very clever man, not to be underestimated, and he knows how to manipulate key people and twist meanings (after all, he is a silk)
My understanding is that the FIA bows to the courts of France in extremis, so there is a further right of appeal beyond the FIA, only McLaren haven't opted to take it.The thing is, if McLaren were to take the FIA to the "real" courts (for extortion, blackmail, etc), they would win. But the FIA would most likely make thier life a real misery, or even prevent them from taking part in anything ever again.
zaktoo said:
"Yes, your honour, I stole 100 pounds, but I didn't spend it."
"Very well, acquitted!"
Maybe in your wet dreams.
Translation:"Very well, acquitted!"
Maybe in your wet dreams.
"Yes, your honour, someone in our company was willingly handed 100 pounds by someone else and we immediately suspended him pending investigation"
"In that case you're fined 100,000,000 dollars"
Definitely in reality.
MrKipling43 said:
air cooled said:
Does not the e-mail exchange between FA & PdlR describe testing a gas compound used by Ferrari to fill it's tyres ?
Perhaps one of our racers can enlighten us as to what is the usual method of inflating race tyres.
Most racing tyres are filled using Nitrogen rather than air, since the lower the water content in the gas they use to fill up the tyres, the less the tyres are susceptible to expansion and contraction as they heat up and cool down.Perhaps one of our racers can enlighten us as to what is the usual method of inflating race tyres.
Also, I seriously doubt that the teams could have too much control over this, since the tyres are fitted to the rims by Bridgestone at the circuit.
Other than that, perhaps helium could be used to reduce rotating mass?
Edited by MrKipling43 on Wednesday 31st October 17:46
You want a dry gas in the tyre so that the presures stay more stable during their usable heat range. Using air you would see a presure change of 5psi from ambient to up to temperature on a rear tyre due mainly to the expansion charicteristics of the water vapour in the air, with pre-heated tyres you would probably see around 2psi diference. With Nitrogen you tend to have a presure change of 2psi from ambient to up to temperature, with tyre warmers that will be around 1psi.
Keeping the presures stable is very important because on an F1 car, a large amount of the suspension charicteristics come from the tyre carcass sidewall flex, they use very high profile tyres by modern standards, which acts as a relatively undamped spring, this has a major influence on ride height and basic handling response.
I personally think the reason CO2 was blanked out in the transcript was because of it's negative PR posibilities when every Politico on the planet is spouting how CO2 is bad and should be reduced, using that actively as a performance enhancer wouldnt look good for F1's green credentials. It wont have been because of some IP issue as the teams will have tried other inert gasses plenty of times in private testing.
I have heard the judges are all from countries that aren't involved in the so called scandal but it has made me laugh to learn the appeal will be in Italy..
hahahahahahahah you couldn't invent it....
Ah so you're the judge from Brazil.
Welcome to Italy. My brother Alfredo will make sure your stay here issa very nice. . . . or we gonna breaka your legs...
I have often half seriously wondered if because of the money involved in F1 wether the Mafia hadn't got a foothold. Max makes some very funny decisions.
Or is it to do with a connection to the Mussolini estate through his father . . you have to wonder. It will no doubt come out in a biography after Max's death in the meantime we have to put up with him screwing F1.
Strange that Bernie leaves him to it without too much comment.
hahahahahahahah you couldn't invent it....
Ah so you're the judge from Brazil.
Welcome to Italy. My brother Alfredo will make sure your stay here issa very nice. . . . or we gonna breaka your legs...
I have often half seriously wondered if because of the money involved in F1 wether the Mafia hadn't got a foothold. Max makes some very funny decisions.
Or is it to do with a connection to the Mussolini estate through his father . . you have to wonder. It will no doubt come out in a biography after Max's death in the meantime we have to put up with him screwing F1.
Strange that Bernie leaves him to it without too much comment.
there is a small difference in the heat capacity of the gases you could use!
specific heat capacity of
air: 1.0035 J g−1 K−1
N2: 1.040 J g−1 K−1
CO2: 0.846 J g−1 K−1
the reason for using N2 over air is that it is dry so pressure increases can be predicted by treating it as a perfect gas. with water vapour in the mix this would be harder.
Co2 has a smaller specific heat capacity so the gas in the tyre will heat up faster compared to N2. quite neat actually.
specific heat capacity of
air: 1.0035 J g−1 K−1
N2: 1.040 J g−1 K−1
CO2: 0.846 J g−1 K−1
the reason for using N2 over air is that it is dry so pressure increases can be predicted by treating it as a perfect gas. with water vapour in the mix this would be harder.
Co2 has a smaller specific heat capacity so the gas in the tyre will heat up faster compared to N2. quite neat actually.
Thank you very much Gentlemen, this is most informative. Not the sort of info you pick up from the sports pages of yer local rag.
So is it likely that no IP was gained dispite the e-mail exchange ?
If so (as appears likely) why was FA keen to test the tyres with this filling?
I would have thought that he was fully clued up on all aspects of car set up, wasn't that why he was there ?
After all McL were only found guilty after the e-mail exchange was made public. The first hearing cleared them.
My interest also runs to why Ferrari couldn't catch a cold in 05 let alone a Renault. I suspect that was all due to similar inflationary matters.
So is it likely that no IP was gained dispite the e-mail exchange ?
If so (as appears likely) why was FA keen to test the tyres with this filling?
I would have thought that he was fully clued up on all aspects of car set up, wasn't that why he was there ?
After all McL were only found guilty after the e-mail exchange was made public. The first hearing cleared them.
My interest also runs to why Ferrari couldn't catch a cold in 05 let alone a Renault. I suspect that was all due to similar inflationary matters.
air cooled said:
Does not the e-mail exchange between FA & PdlR describe testing a gas compound used by Ferrari to fill it's tyres ?
Perhaps one of our racers can enlighten us as to what is the usual method of inflating race tyres.
Such information is widely available throughout the pitlane through the usual movement of technical staff between teams. There would certainly be no technical advantage gained from this specific e-mail. Perhaps one of our racers can enlighten us as to what is the usual method of inflating race tyres.
[quote=jacobyte]I do now know what charges the Italian courts are charging McLaren for.
ButI do know that in an English court of law McLaren would have been found innocent, as there was no evidence that they:
a) gained a competitive advantage from being given information by Ferrari
b) brought the sport into disrepute
No evidence at all. It would be laughed out of court. In fact it wouldn't even have reached court.
a) We have seen copies of emails where Alonso asked De La Rosa to ask Coughlan to ask Stepney details about weight distribution and tyre-air - and to make sure he gets the answer urgently - before the next McLaren test. How would that count not as "gained competitive advantage from being given information by Ferrari"???
b) F1 has never been brought into disrepute as much as this year by McLaren. In fact the only thing McLaren are champions of this year is "bringing the sport into disrepute" - no doubt.
The evidence is so firm that Ron never even argued his $100m fine - and he would have if he had any moral position of strength, I am sure of that.
Also, as Zaktoo said, getting the info and then not using it is stupid - and it is dangerous, because when you get caught it costs you $100m or more!
ButI do know that in an English court of law McLaren would have been found innocent, as there was no evidence that they:
a) gained a competitive advantage from being given information by Ferrari
b) brought the sport into disrepute
No evidence at all. It would be laughed out of court. In fact it wouldn't even have reached court.
====================================
a) We have seen copies of emails where Alonso asked De La Rosa to ask Coughlan to ask Stepney details about weight distribution and tyre-air - and to make sure he gets the answer urgently - before the next McLaren test. How would that count not as "gained competitive advantage from being given information by Ferrari"???
b) F1 has never been brought into disrepute as much as this year by McLaren. In fact the only thing McLaren are champions of this year is "bringing the sport into disrepute" - no doubt.
The evidence is so firm that Ron never even argued his $100m fine - and he would have if he had any moral position of strength, I am sure of that.
Also, as Zaktoo said, getting the info and then not using it is stupid - and it is dangerous, because when you get caught it costs you $100m or more!
lojohn said:
jacobyte said:
I do now know what charges the Italian courts are charging McLaren for.
ButI do know that in an English court of law McLaren would have been found innocent, as there was no evidence that they:
a) gained a competitive advantage from being given information by Ferrari
b) brought the sport into disrepute
No evidence at all. It would be laughed out of court. In fact it wouldn't even have reached court.
ButI do know that in an English court of law McLaren would have been found innocent, as there was no evidence that they:
a) gained a competitive advantage from being given information by Ferrari
b) brought the sport into disrepute
No evidence at all. It would be laughed out of court. In fact it wouldn't even have reached court.
====================================
a) We have seen copies of emails where Alonso asked De La Rosa to ask Coughlan to ask Stepney details about weight distribution and tyre-air - and to make sure he gets the answer urgently - before the next McLaren test. How would that count not as "gained competitive advantage from being given information by Ferrari"???
b) F1 has never been brought into disrepute as much as this year by McLaren. In fact the only thing McLaren are champions of this year is "bringing the sport into disrepute" - no doubt.
The evidence is so firm that Ron never even argued his $100m fine - and he would have if he had any moral position of strength, I am sure of that.
Also, as Zaktoo said, getting the info and then not using it is stupid - and it is dangerous, because when you get caught it costs you $100m or more!
You might wish to invest a bit of time in reading previous GM threads discussing the issues surrounding Stepney, et al. Having done so, you might well change the opinions that you have expressed in your first post.
Cheers.
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