Why is the series been names the Tuscan and Sag Challenge
Discussion
jellison said:
Is it not just a straight below 300 / upto 350 / and over 400bhp at the fly class structure? Seem MASSIVELY Open to cheating unless they are checked on dynos regularly.
Structure not yet 100% confirmed. Your comments on the SRR figures are in general for TVR built engines that often can't manage the same CR on all 6 cylinders and with cranks and rods that look like they've been in a scrap yard for two weeks before being fitted. Lots to be had from a S6 especially with 4,5s etc being available...
ceejay said:
Class A is free, classes B & C are PTW controlled with a DL1 datalogger. These work and although not absolutely fool proof WILL keep the field level.
ceejay
Fool proof or otherwise ceejay, you have the benifit of competing in the best looking TVR ever built and I look forwardto seeing it every third or fourth lap next year as it sails past my old M ceejay
Daftlad said:
jellison said:
Is it not just a straight below 300 / upto 350 / and over 400bhp at the fly class structure? Seem MASSIVELY Open to cheating unless they are checked on dynos regularly.
Structure not yet 100% confirmed. Your comments on the SRR figures are in general for TVR built engines that often can't manage the same CR on all 6 cylinders and with cranks and rods that look like they've been in a scrap yard for two weeks before being fitted. Lots to be had from a S6 especially with 4,5s etc being available...
Are you saying TVR Built SP6's are Shit then and useless for racing - must have special rods / piston made for the job assembled for racing?
And why the F*CK am I not getting updated on new entries in this thread if I created it?
They can't get the same CR on all cylinders - that sounds nuts!? I know of a mate very carefully run in Sag lump - pain in the arse trying to get him to open it up till 2k miles - madness!! (6 month before they folded that make 363bhp and 310ft/lbs (one of the best on SRR on over 367 I think).
Edited by jellison on Thursday 1st November 16:01
jellison said:
Daftlad said:
jellison said:
Is it not just a straight below 300 / upto 350 / and over 400bhp at the fly class structure? Seem MASSIVELY Open to cheating unless they are checked on dynos regularly.
Structure not yet 100% confirmed. Your comments on the SRR figures are in general for TVR built engines that often can't manage the same CR on all 6 cylinders and with cranks and rods that look like they've been in a scrap yard for two weeks before being fitted. Lots to be had from a S6 especially with 4,5s etc being available...
Are you saying TVR Built SP6's are Shit then and useless for racing - must have special rods / piston made for the job assembled for racing?
And why the F*CK am I not getting updated on new entries in this thread if I created it?
They can't get the same CR on all cylinders - that sounds nuts!? I know of a mate very carefully run in Sag lump - pain in the arse trying to get him to open it up till 2k miles - madness!! (6 month before they folded that make 363bhp and 310ft/lbs (one of the best on SRR on over 367 I think).
Edited by jellison on Thursday 1st November 16:01
I was suggesting that the S6 should be ok, but that the quailty of the engine components are still lacking, and that carefull build would liberate more power. CRs is one example. My 2005 Sag has done 9000 miles mostly on track, not racing, but pushed very hard and its been fine. The very late engines were probably as bad as the early ones for very different reasons - the biggest would be dont give a Sh*t syndrome when built.
...it's in Class C. Hope to see 210-220 flywheel when freshened. 
jellison said:
Graham said:
I think there are issues over using TVR in the title which may be the problem. We could have re-used the TVRcc Challenge name, but I guess with main series co-ordinator coming from the Tuscan side that wasnt going to happen, and T&S challenge is a reflection that its moved on from just the tuscans...
looks a little odd though I'll admit but as long as the racings good i dont really care :-)
still could be worse channel 111 on sky has been renamed Dave and my wife calls the series "that f**king racing"
Tell me about it - I just get rolled eyes when I mention my races cars!looks a little odd though I'll admit but as long as the racings good i dont really care :-)
still could be worse channel 111 on sky has been renamed Dave and my wife calls the series "that f**king racing"
N.
[/quote]
I would probably call a Sagaris something with a Sagaris chassis, Sagaris body and Sagris engine a Sagaris. Call me old fashioned, but when you can't meet the criteria of one of those three, I think there is a credibility issue. (body chopped to pieces in the name of aerodynamics and fitting a different chassis are hardly minor adaptaions)
Its not even close enough to be a hybrid.............sorry (a Sagaris owner).
[/quote]
There's no such thing as a Sagaris engine and I'm afraid I'm in the very scepticle camp when it comes to the SP6 engine, having had three of them go bang on my road Tuscans. The last one did manage 17000 miles before going pop which wasn't too bad and hopefully means you should get another 8000 miles from yours, at least (fingers crossed for you)!
Our Sag body is the same as yours but clearly has to have some mods to enable it to race, pretty much as any race version of a production car would have. As there were no Sag chassis available to us the obvious thing to do was to use race proven Tuscan ones, which has worked brilliantly.
The great thing is our Sags have attracted a huge amount of attention from the racing enthusiasts who come to spectate and have generated lots of interest in the Challenge again, which is good news for everyone. Even more importantly, they're fantastic to race and bloody quick.
GlynnsportRacing said:
Phil Dicky said:
I'm not bothered what its called as long as I'm taking part. 
100% with you on that Phil. Next Season just can't come soon enough. although maybe it wouldn't be as much fun coming first then
GlynnsportRacing said:
Lots of things I don't agree with and aren't factual, but I may be inclined to give way on drink were applied
I'm sure your car/cars have attracted huge attention and I'm sure they are quick. I'm also sure you will have great fun next year and be competitive in a series that is named in part after a car that's not competing thus far. Confused but not uptight and looking forward to seeing you on the grid next year, maybe a few rows apart, but getting a similar level of enjoyment I'm sure..
Edited by Daftlad on Thursday 1st November 21:07
I think we all agree the most appropriate name would be the TVR Challenge, but if that is not possible for legal reasons then there's not much can be done about it. Most people in motorsport know the Tuscan name and immediately associate it with TVR, plus the most numerous cars in the series are Tuscans so I suppose there is some logic in that. I'm not sure I agree with the inclusion of Sagaris in the title.
Its sad to read various comments about the Sagaris race cars not being 'proper', or being 'neither production nor GT cars'.
TVR have always made do with what they had, and produced some stunning cars nonetheless. The Griff and Chimaera shared the same chassis. The Cerbera was produced with both S6 and AJP chassis/engines. All the T cars share the same chassis. Perhaps the most notorious TVR, the original Tuscan, had a sodding great American lump in it. And all the modern TVR chassis are descended from the TC chassis.
Next time I see Peter Wheeler at a Heritage race I'll ask him whether he thinks my LS6 engined, Tuscan Challenge chassised, Sagaris bodied race car is in the spirit of TVR. I don't suppose he'll give a
, but I bet he'll be quietly chuffed if it gives the Porsches,Ferraris, Vipers and BMWs a good hiding. Which it will.
I love the AJP8 engine - it is superb and reliable in a sprint race format - and I really wanted to see the Speed Six succeed. But if Lawrence Tomlinson couldn't make the S6 work in a race car, I was buggered if I was going to try.
Good luck to Ceejay and Jonny W this weekend in the Pro Mil series - hope the weather is kind to you. Do tell us what the car weighs when you finally get it on some scales Ceejay
Its sad to read various comments about the Sagaris race cars not being 'proper', or being 'neither production nor GT cars'.
TVR have always made do with what they had, and produced some stunning cars nonetheless. The Griff and Chimaera shared the same chassis. The Cerbera was produced with both S6 and AJP chassis/engines. All the T cars share the same chassis. Perhaps the most notorious TVR, the original Tuscan, had a sodding great American lump in it. And all the modern TVR chassis are descended from the TC chassis.
Next time I see Peter Wheeler at a Heritage race I'll ask him whether he thinks my LS6 engined, Tuscan Challenge chassised, Sagaris bodied race car is in the spirit of TVR. I don't suppose he'll give a
, but I bet he'll be quietly chuffed if it gives the Porsches,Ferraris, Vipers and BMWs a good hiding. Which it will.I love the AJP8 engine - it is superb and reliable in a sprint race format - and I really wanted to see the Speed Six succeed. But if Lawrence Tomlinson couldn't make the S6 work in a race car, I was buggered if I was going to try.
Good luck to Ceejay and Jonny W this weekend in the Pro Mil series - hope the weather is kind to you. Do tell us what the car weighs when you finally get it on some scales Ceejay
teamHOLDENracing said:
Its sad to read various comments about the Sagaris race cars not being 'proper', or being 'neither production nor GT cars'.
Andy,My arguement is they are not a Sagaris and they never will be no matter how much any of the teams that run the current nearly a Sagaris shape race cars contest. Maybe Sagaris Silhouette would have been a more honest description?
I know the poltics, I struggle with the work around and feel a bit more imagination would have come up with something more credible - god knows, imagination in this series is not lacking over the last few years..........
Nice to see anything entered as a TVR kick the opposition, but...
Edited by Daftlad on Thursday 1st November 21:24
Daftlad said:
Confused but not uptight and looking forward to seeing you on the grid next year, maybe a few rows apart, but getting a similar level of enjoyment I'm sure..
Looking forward to seeing you out with us too, it should be a great Season for the Tuscan/Sagaris/TVR/ Whatever it's called Challenge and I'm sure you will get as much enjoyment out of it. If not, you could always convert your road Sag to a race car and we could have a real Sag out with us Edited by Daftlad on Thursday 1st November 21:07
Not uptight either, cos I love my Sag (sorry...nearly, maybe probably not Sag'
) but spare a thought for the guys who literally spent hundreds of hours designing, creating and building them with blood, sweat and tears and take huge pride in what has come from it. They've done more than the factory ever did to support your road car on our race tracks.P.S. - First beer's on me, the next six are on you!!!
Daftlad said:
,
Maybe Sagaris Silhouette would have been a more honest description?
I know the poltics, I struggle with the work around and feel a bit more imagination would have come up with something more credible - god knows, imagination in this series is not lacking over the last few years..........
In motorsport a silhouette is almost universally a description of a space frame chassised car carrying a vague representation of the body shell of a monocoque car. The construction methods are poles apart. And the look is usually pretty poorly executed. That is not a description you could fairly level at the Tuscan/Sagaris conversions, although Tim's latest air intakes are starting to stretch things at thye frontMaybe Sagaris Silhouette would have been a more honest description?
I know the poltics, I struggle with the work around and feel a bit more imagination would have come up with something more credible - god knows, imagination in this series is not lacking over the last few years..........
I can understand why as a Sagaris owner you might adopt the position you do, particuarly if the viewpoint were based largely upon the choice of powerplant. Bringing the body shell into the equation seems utterly daft, given the thing in my case is a TVR supplied shell with a modified front end.
As for imagination - no imagination in the world makes me want to race a Speed Six engined car if I am paying for the engines myself. Several far more experienced and better funded teams have been there before me and failed.
I am quite happy with the car I ended up with. Had I started with a 'real' Sagaris I would have amended the body shell to what I have now (because funnily enough that's what happened - I started with a real Sagaris shell), added additional chassis bracing, rose jointed the suspension and changed the wishbones, added the same roll cage and, in no time at all, gone down the same Chevy LS route. The end result would have been litle different, but far more expensive. If it helps the car will be switched over to road car uprights during the winter.
At risk of offending real Sagaris owners I will contiue to refer to my car as a Sagaris V8GT. You may call it a TVR Bastard, a Holden Bastard or just a Bastard if you wish. I have certainly called it the latter, particularly when a brand new engine wiring harness had two red wires connected in the wrong order, causing the engine not to start and taking me 5 days to track down.
By the way, I notice that the 'Sagaris' race cars appear on the Sagaris register thread
Edited to add a picture of the Holden Bastard:
Edited by teamHOLDENracing on Thursday 1st November 23:04
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