The best F1 combination: Clark/Lotus or Villeneuve/Ferrari?
Discussion
Definitely Clark and Lotus. Stewart and Tyrrell came close I reckon but Villeneuve and Ferrari nowhere near. After all Enzo didn't seem overly concerned when Pironi twisted the knife, did he? I don't recall him going to pieces after Gilles' death, either but then I guess he'd suffered the loss of a son.
kevin ritson said:
Definitely Clark and Lotus. Stewart and Tyrrell came close I reckon but Villeneuve and Ferrari nowhere near. After all Enzo didn't seem overly concerned when Pironi twisted the knife, did he? I don't recall him going to pieces after Gilles' death, either but then I guess he'd suffered the loss of a son.
I see what you mean and agree with you. Enzo didn't give a damn about any driver whereas Clark and Chapman, and Stewart and Tyrell were a partnership. However, the question was the driver and the car.The word magical is a bit wooly. The sort of adjective people use when there's little or nothing concrete to go on. Still, Clark was magic when he drove anything. My favourite memory of him was in a Ford Galaxy at Brands when it was teeming with rain and he put half the (now) Indy circuit on the rest of the field in the first lap. Clark surpassed Lotus. It's hard to imagine Stewart without a Tyrell and the same with Villeneuve and Ferrari.
Villeneuve was great to watch but lacked that little something that pushed the other two to their championships. They wanted to win races, Gilles seemed to want to beat the car in front.
I've been watching GPs since 1966 at Brands and other races since 1958 and there's no doubt in my mind that the best driver was Clark. He was 'magical' in the sense that he seemed in a class above everyone else. I've not had that impression since, not in F1.
What was great about Jimmy and Lotus was that he would get straight out of F1 33 and next be seen 3 or even 2 wheeling the Team Lotus Cortina at the same meeting,then the following week he would be out in the F2 car. Then in the winter he would do the Tasman series plus also his sportcar and Indycar racing in the states.
He was well up in the RAC Rally untill tearing a front wing off.
Jimmy could drive anything and to this day i will never forget the scenes of grief that greeted the tragic news of his death at the Kart meeting I was racing at.
A legend.
He was well up in the RAC Rally untill tearing a front wing off.
Jimmy could drive anything and to this day i will never forget the scenes of grief that greeted the tragic news of his death at the Kart meeting I was racing at.
A legend.
But that was normal for ALL top flight racing drivers in those days. Jimmy was masterful in anything he drove - but he was usually racing the same drivers he raced in F1.
The original question relates to how important a driver was to his team. Lotus, Ferrari, McLaren, Williams et al have been successful with a variety of drivers. Tyrrell were only ever dominant when Stewart was their main driver.
I would also suggest that the Rob Walker team was totally dependent on Stirling Moss.
The original question relates to how important a driver was to his team. Lotus, Ferrari, McLaren, Williams et al have been successful with a variety of drivers. Tyrrell were only ever dominant when Stewart was their main driver.
I would also suggest that the Rob Walker team was totally dependent on Stirling Moss.
Dunit said:
What was great about Jimmy and Lotus was that he would get straight out of F1 33 and next be seen 3 or even 2 wheeling the Team Lotus Cortina at the same meeting,then the following week he would be out in the F2 car. Then in the winter he would do the Tasman series plus also his sportcar and Indycar racing in the states.
He was well up in the RAC Rally untill tearing a front wing off.
Jimmy could drive anything and to this day i will never forget the scenes of grief that greeted the tragic news of his death at the Kart meeting I was racing at.
A legend.
I was spectating at Brands that day and the first news was that he'd had an accident and no one was particularly concerned. Then, when the news came that he was serious there still seemed little belief that someone as great as Jimmy could be really hurt. Then, when it came over the tannoy that he'd died, the whole of Clearways emptied and as we all wandered back to our cars no one was talking. After that, no driver seemed invincible. It was worrying when Senna started talking about being protected by his god.He was well up in the RAC Rally untill tearing a front wing off.
Jimmy could drive anything and to this day i will never forget the scenes of grief that greeted the tragic news of his death at the Kart meeting I was racing at.
A legend.
Is there anyone who saw Clark racing who does not believe that he was the greatest?
Gilles has a reputation in some circles as a bit of a rock ape, but this was completely unjust. In the T5 shed of 1980 one of the reasons he was able to get so much from what was a complete shed was that he could coaxe softer tyres to last longer than Scheckter could. Nobody else could have pit the '81 turbo on the front row of the Monaco grid or get a win with it, he was after all 2.5 seconds faster than Pironi in qualifiying, a bloke who may not have had much in the way of ethics but was still a top driver. If Villeneuve had a decent car he would have been a multiple world champion, unfortunately it was his loyalty to Ferrari that held him back, not a lack of finesse behind the wheel. People forget that his dice with Arnoux in Dijon '79 was completed on wrecked tyres and he'd already lapped that years Champion Schecter in the process!.
^ noooo! Surely Walker and Hunt?
It's a vague question. What makes a pairing magical? Entertainment? Most memorable? Flamboyance?
I'd have to go with Clark/Lotus too. Not seen him race, but seen a rare few vids and plenty of race report stories - like in F1 racing last month of his race at Monza '67 when he was over a lap behind the leaders due to a puncture and managed to unlap himself and get a 10 sceond lead before running out of fuel. Magical.
Also pleased that most on here can see through the Schumi smokescreen too. Good, yes. Great, no. 7x WDC's great? Don't make me laugh...
As for one not mentioned, how about Mansell/Williams for the 'Magical' entertainment? They should've won the WDC in 1986 and as a result of that (if Honda then accetped him as number 1) would probably have won it in 1987 as well. But for sheer decimation of the field, nothing has seen the likes of Mansell/Williams in 1992 since... well, modern times. Most races he was qualifying well over a second faster than the best of the rest. A couple of times nearly 3 seconds IIRC! Magical.
It's a vague question. What makes a pairing magical? Entertainment? Most memorable? Flamboyance?
I'd have to go with Clark/Lotus too. Not seen him race, but seen a rare few vids and plenty of race report stories - like in F1 racing last month of his race at Monza '67 when he was over a lap behind the leaders due to a puncture and managed to unlap himself and get a 10 sceond lead before running out of fuel. Magical.
Also pleased that most on here can see through the Schumi smokescreen too. Good, yes. Great, no. 7x WDC's great? Don't make me laugh...
As for one not mentioned, how about Mansell/Williams for the 'Magical' entertainment? They should've won the WDC in 1986 and as a result of that (if Honda then accetped him as number 1) would probably have won it in 1987 as well. But for sheer decimation of the field, nothing has seen the likes of Mansell/Williams in 1992 since... well, modern times. Most races he was qualifying well over a second faster than the best of the rest. A couple of times nearly 3 seconds IIRC! Magical.
The thing with the Clark/ Lotus combination is regarding the Lotus side,I really mean Colin the Gaffer.
Neary every car Jimmy raced was designed by him and the two of them were allways together no matter it be F1,F2 ,Touring cars,Tasman series etc.
They were all run under the team Lotus banner which those days was Colins Baby.
I know in those days some of the other drivers raced in other formulas but not for the same team F2 apart.
In later times Jackie and Ken had the same sort of rapport but not to the same lengths.
Neary every car Jimmy raced was designed by him and the two of them were allways together no matter it be F1,F2 ,Touring cars,Tasman series etc.
They were all run under the team Lotus banner which those days was Colins Baby.
I know in those days some of the other drivers raced in other formulas but not for the same team F2 apart.
In later times Jackie and Ken had the same sort of rapport but not to the same lengths.
mattikake said:
^ noooo! Surely Walker and Hunt?
You could be right...but I didn't watch F1 much back then, so can't say.I guess it was a similar scenario though. Overenthusiastic and overexcitable Walker, and calm ex-racer with a more pragmatic view of things.
As for driver/team, I'm afraid it probably has to be the Schumacher/Ferrari story....but I do prefer the Hunt/Hesketh story. Pity Hunt didn't win the championship in that car.
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