Did the Regs work At Brands Hatch?
Discussion
From all reports seen by me (and also the absence of any negative comments on here) it seems they did.
Certainly the other thread suggests all had a good time!
The Scrutineers weighed every car - making some pump out fuel as required by the regs - and all data cards were taken and interrogated. One car was asked to re class.
The problem seems to be that as in the Championship this year it is not actually any lack of policing by EERC but an inability or unwillingness by some competitors to take on board that the whole concept including the powerlogger is for real and to ensure that some data can be obtained from the logger - switching it on, mounting it correctly, inserting the card etc all appear to have been problems for some.
There is provision in the 2008 regs both for requiring a connector (FIA type preferably) for pumping out fuel (or fuel samples) to be fitted and for data to be available from the logger and in both cases failure to comply is a breach of regs where they were previously a little vague.
There is also provision for teams to declare weight and BHP through the Technical Passports (which in 07 again received mixed attention) and this should asuage some of the more vociferous members of this forum.
Clarity in the regs that was just not there in the championship this year and maybe you cannot blame the officials for not wanting to end up at the MSA with a hopeless cause against a well fed lawyer!
Hopefully the Scrutineers will be able to act upon these matters in 2008
It is interesting to note that those who shouted loudest before this event about the EERC - "Has it gone wrong already?" - do not seem to have been present to see it work.......................
(probably keeping warm in hot tubs)
Certainly the other thread suggests all had a good time!
The Scrutineers weighed every car - making some pump out fuel as required by the regs - and all data cards were taken and interrogated. One car was asked to re class.
The problem seems to be that as in the Championship this year it is not actually any lack of policing by EERC but an inability or unwillingness by some competitors to take on board that the whole concept including the powerlogger is for real and to ensure that some data can be obtained from the logger - switching it on, mounting it correctly, inserting the card etc all appear to have been problems for some.
There is provision in the 2008 regs both for requiring a connector (FIA type preferably) for pumping out fuel (or fuel samples) to be fitted and for data to be available from the logger and in both cases failure to comply is a breach of regs where they were previously a little vague.
There is also provision for teams to declare weight and BHP through the Technical Passports (which in 07 again received mixed attention) and this should asuage some of the more vociferous members of this forum.
Clarity in the regs that was just not there in the championship this year and maybe you cannot blame the officials for not wanting to end up at the MSA with a hopeless cause against a well fed lawyer!
Hopefully the Scrutineers will be able to act upon these matters in 2008
It is interesting to note that those who shouted loudest before this event about the EERC - "Has it gone wrong already?" - do not seem to have been present to see it work.......................
(probably keeping warm in hot tubs)
Edited by casualobserver on Monday 12th November 17:06
It's a bit of a long trip from Macclesfield to Brands to watch other cars go round and round in circles when you have 4 kids so I guess Steve took the decision to stay in his hot tub with his kids and a JD, and chilled out........and who can blame him.
Hope you guys all had fun and that the regs will work in 2008........so we can win again !!!!!!!!!!
Hope you guys all had fun and that the regs will work in 2008........so we can win again !!!!!!!!!!
First of all the night race seemed to be very good natured and hopefully sport becomes the bigger issue than some small squabbles over regs.
casualobserver said:
The problem seems to be that as in the Championship this year it is not actually any lack of policing by EERC but an inability or unwillingness by some competitors to take on board that the whole concept including the powerlogger is for real and to ensure that some data can be obtained from the logger - switching it on, mounting it correctly, inserting the card etc all appear to have been problems for some.
Actually I'd say it was simply poor implementation. Seems crazy that after a year with the powerlogger only last weekend in the drivers briefing were there any discussion about the validation of the loggers via a test day to discover individual cars Cd.casualobserver said:
There is also provision for teams to declare weight and BHP through the Technical Passports (which in 07 again received mixed attention) and this should asuage some of the more vociferous members of this forum.
I don't think you can take issue with people who become vocal about something that just isn't or hasn't worked. Ultimately if you write a set of regulations then you should have the resources to enforce them, so simply putting in place things to do that should not be seen as special.casualobserver said:
It is interesting to note that those who shouted loudest before this event about the EERC - "Has it gone wrong already?" - do not seem to have been present to see it work.......................
Perhaps or perhaps the output is simply unknown as the interesting thing from the night race was that the laptimes in each class were if anything faster than the were in the late summer at the last round of Britcar. Which to me means one of two things. Either people weren't "cheating" as per calls from some sides OR perhaps we might open our eyes to the fact that lap time is more than a function of power and weight.casualobserver said:
It is interesting to note that those who shouted loudest before this event about the EERC - "Has it gone wrong already?" - do not seem to have been present to see it work.......................
(probably keeping warm in hot tubs)
Dear 'casualobserver' or EERC!(probably keeping warm in hot tubs)
Edited by casualobserver on Monday 12th November 17:06
Correct, i was in my hot tub with a JD which seems much better than driving 4 hrs to race 90mins and then drive 4hrs home!
I never had an intention of entering the night race.. we have done everything we want to do in 2007.
I understand the general opinion was very favourable and the EERC should have a pat on the back for this!
Well done see you in 2008 with No 1 on the car
Steve
Edited by Bellly on Monday 12th November 18:03
Well I was there and had an absolutely fantastic race, close racing, loads of fun and in good company. I purposely didn`t mention any of the regulatory issues in my race report as I don`t think that`s the place for it.
However.....
Did the regs work? It depends to what extent you mean.
The pitstop windows were applied and still the cars you`d expect to do well did well. The lower class cars came no where near winning the race outright so you might argue what`s the point in having people stop for different times.
On the class policing side of things I`m not so sure. The TVR Tuscan was moved up from class 2 to class 1 but more through competitor pressure than any ability on the part of the scrutineers to police the championship. Incidentally just for the record at no point has Warren ever claimed the Tuscan`s power to weight ratio was inside those of class 2, his argument has always been that lack of chassis development and old technology meant it should still be considered a class 2 car.
With regards data cards they have all been collected, more for analysis over the coming weeks than to police this particular meeting. If I was a gambling man I`d wager the class 2 winning BMW M3 E46 GTR would struggle to marry each of it`s BHP to 3.7 kg of dry weight without fuel. I suspect we`d have a few hooves left over
All the cars were indeed weighed and the fuel tanks drained. That said if you wanted to make your car light (so the data logger didn`t think you were accelerating lots of mass), then all you had to do was unbolt a load of non essential bits. If you wanted it to be heavy all you had to do was bolt in some ballast to suit your arguments. I understand the club`s reasons for weighing dry, it give an exact weight which should be the same all season. The problem is that it`s almost impossible to measure in parc ferme conditions after the race. Simply weighing the cars as they finish the race takes seconds it also allows you to use the data logger to calculate the car`s bhp (the whole reason we have it).
By weighing the cars dry it is impossible to use the data logger to ascertain engine HP output. We are all going to Silverstone in the new year to perform a series of coast down tests (hopefully undertaken by a neutral driver in each car), which will give a drag co-efficient for each vehicle. (We need to photograph each car to make sure the basic spoiler layout remains constant come race time and also take a couple of measurements such as rear wing size & angle to ensure they don`t grow). However because the car`s weight is not taken as it finishes the race the mass used in the calculations will not be correct, it will be too low and as such the BHP figures will also be low.
Force (BHP) = Mass (weight of car combined with drag through the air) multiplied by acceleration (measured by the GPS over flat ground).
There was spurious talk from James of taking off wings and other penalties he was going to come up with during his briefing. I`m not sure how all that fits in with the club`s simple power to weight class structure as proposed. Make a rule and stick to it.
Ultimately this meeting was never going to be policed with an iron fist. The main tool in the EERC`s armoury, the data logger, still needs to be calibrated for each car and be seen to be working properly before it`s results can be taken as gospel. For their part the EERC were trying (very at times!), and for the moment that`s the important bit. Next year when the points are on the table they`ll need to have their act sorted.
If the race on Saturday with half a grid is anything to go by it`s going to be a pretty awesome season in 2008 and we`ll see some close racing for sure.
Henry
However.....
Did the regs work? It depends to what extent you mean.
The pitstop windows were applied and still the cars you`d expect to do well did well. The lower class cars came no where near winning the race outright so you might argue what`s the point in having people stop for different times.
On the class policing side of things I`m not so sure. The TVR Tuscan was moved up from class 2 to class 1 but more through competitor pressure than any ability on the part of the scrutineers to police the championship. Incidentally just for the record at no point has Warren ever claimed the Tuscan`s power to weight ratio was inside those of class 2, his argument has always been that lack of chassis development and old technology meant it should still be considered a class 2 car.
With regards data cards they have all been collected, more for analysis over the coming weeks than to police this particular meeting. If I was a gambling man I`d wager the class 2 winning BMW M3 E46 GTR would struggle to marry each of it`s BHP to 3.7 kg of dry weight without fuel. I suspect we`d have a few hooves left over
All the cars were indeed weighed and the fuel tanks drained. That said if you wanted to make your car light (so the data logger didn`t think you were accelerating lots of mass), then all you had to do was unbolt a load of non essential bits. If you wanted it to be heavy all you had to do was bolt in some ballast to suit your arguments. I understand the club`s reasons for weighing dry, it give an exact weight which should be the same all season. The problem is that it`s almost impossible to measure in parc ferme conditions after the race. Simply weighing the cars as they finish the race takes seconds it also allows you to use the data logger to calculate the car`s bhp (the whole reason we have it).
By weighing the cars dry it is impossible to use the data logger to ascertain engine HP output. We are all going to Silverstone in the new year to perform a series of coast down tests (hopefully undertaken by a neutral driver in each car), which will give a drag co-efficient for each vehicle. (We need to photograph each car to make sure the basic spoiler layout remains constant come race time and also take a couple of measurements such as rear wing size & angle to ensure they don`t grow). However because the car`s weight is not taken as it finishes the race the mass used in the calculations will not be correct, it will be too low and as such the BHP figures will also be low.
Force (BHP) = Mass (weight of car combined with drag through the air) multiplied by acceleration (measured by the GPS over flat ground).
There was spurious talk from James of taking off wings and other penalties he was going to come up with during his briefing. I`m not sure how all that fits in with the club`s simple power to weight class structure as proposed. Make a rule and stick to it.
Ultimately this meeting was never going to be policed with an iron fist. The main tool in the EERC`s armoury, the data logger, still needs to be calibrated for each car and be seen to be working properly before it`s results can be taken as gospel. For their part the EERC were trying (very at times!), and for the moment that`s the important bit. Next year when the points are on the table they`ll need to have their act sorted.
If the race on Saturday with half a grid is anything to go by it`s going to be a pretty awesome season in 2008 and we`ll see some close racing for sure.
Henry
I am sorry I missed the race but I never had any intentions of being there. Reading the comments posted here the race does seem to have gone smoothly and I applaud everyone for that! Maybe a little more transparency would be good but I think this can be worked on. I also agree with 2Priestsferrari that there is a lot more to lap times than power to weight! Certainly, the times looked good and if we accept the front running cars were legal (and I have no reason to doubt this) then it just goes to show that aero, brakes and even the nut behind the wheel makes a huge difference!
Lets hope this can be carried through into 2008 and we can all have a good seasons racing. I think its time to stop debating the rules as the EERC has achieved what most people asked for, start next years preparation and look forward to a great years racing.
Cheers,
Richard.
Lets hope this can be carried through into 2008 and we can all have a good seasons racing. I think its time to stop debating the rules as the EERC has achieved what most people asked for, start next years preparation and look forward to a great years racing.
Cheers,
Richard.
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