Is this the end for Renault F1?
Discussion
Sorry, couldn't resist the title, but in all seriousness...
We all know that Carlos Ghosn has always said that Renault would remain in F1 only for as long as it made financial and commercial sense so, surely a year like 2007 being capped off by them getting thrown out of 2007's standings would mean the end for Renault F1?
They'd have to pay the fine and all their travel expenses, they'd get no TV money and would be handicapped for 2008 too...
Any thoughts?
We all know that Carlos Ghosn has always said that Renault would remain in F1 only for as long as it made financial and commercial sense so, surely a year like 2007 being capped off by them getting thrown out of 2007's standings would mean the end for Renault F1?
They'd have to pay the fine and all their travel expenses, they'd get no TV money and would be handicapped for 2008 too...
Any thoughts?
This really is a tough one. If the FIA throw everything at them, as it seems they should going by McLaren's treatment then there will be a very tough time ahead for Renault.
If they bow out it would be tantamount to admitting they can't compete without cheating, but if they do continue they will almost be throwing good money after bad, especially if Renault have been keeping a close eye on the value of remaining in F1.
If they bow out it would be tantamount to admitting they can't compete without cheating, but if they do continue they will almost be throwing good money after bad, especially if Renault have been keeping a close eye on the value of remaining in F1.
There is no doubt in my mind, that if Renault are treated in the same manner as McLaren were, then yes, they will be off. There was significant rumour of Renault throwing the towel in a couple of years ago, when Ghosn first took over the helm. This was when Alonso jumped ship to McLaren as he did.
The McLaren drivers were only saved from this years championship (and next according to Max Moseley) by their assistance in implicating their team. So it goes that Renault are likely to be banned from this years championship, their drivers banned from this years championship, have their 2008 cars subjected to FIA scrutiny and be fined in the region of $100m - with the possibily that they might be excluded from next years championships as well.
Max stated that the McLaren fine was ONLY the equivilent of the budget difference between McLaren & Renault this year. One would assume that the fine would therefore be quite signifcantly reduced, but Renault won't have the points bonuses to offset against this sum.
Alonso is well aware of the possibily that Renault won't be here next year, as he won't even sign an agreement until this is sorted out. Most sensible thing he has done this year in my eyes.
The only real issue here is how the FIA will find Renault not guilty of any foul play whatsoever, and leave McLaren at the far end of the pits all on their own. (Now there will be no Prodrive)
The McLaren drivers were only saved from this years championship (and next according to Max Moseley) by their assistance in implicating their team. So it goes that Renault are likely to be banned from this years championship, their drivers banned from this years championship, have their 2008 cars subjected to FIA scrutiny and be fined in the region of $100m - with the possibily that they might be excluded from next years championships as well.
Max stated that the McLaren fine was ONLY the equivilent of the budget difference between McLaren & Renault this year. One would assume that the fine would therefore be quite signifcantly reduced, but Renault won't have the points bonuses to offset against this sum.
Alonso is well aware of the possibily that Renault won't be here next year, as he won't even sign an agreement until this is sorted out. Most sensible thing he has done this year in my eyes.
The only real issue here is how the FIA will find Renault not guilty of any foul play whatsoever, and leave McLaren at the far end of the pits all on their own. (Now there will be no Prodrive)
I've said this before, Renault and Benetton have only ever figured with a star driver at the helm, otherwise they tend to bring up the rear of the big four (not that a big four really exists anymore). So either they give up now or put their money behind Alonso, half measures will lead to a slightly better state of mediocrity than those below them.
I suppose this could be the acid test for the FIA,
If renault are found guilty then the FIA have no choice but to throw the book at them.
But then again the FIA dont have a vendetta against them like they seemed to have against Mclaren
Anyhoo to answer your question, my opinion is yes they will leave
Would be a sad day tho and F1 will suffer for it.
If renault are found guilty then the FIA have no choice but to throw the book at them.
But then again the FIA dont have a vendetta against them like they seemed to have against Mclaren
Anyhoo to answer your question, my opinion is yes they will leave
Would be a sad day tho and F1 will suffer for it.
Edited by philis on Friday 23 November 18:25
I expect that if Renault gets the book and a megabuck fine thrown at them they will be off the scene faster than the R27. I wonder who would buy the remains - no doubt Prost will have another go maybe using the Ligier name again - who owns it now? Or perhaps he's too busy ice racing. Be good to see him back in F1 even though he made a right pig's ear of it last time.
philis said:
I suppose this could be the acid test for the FIA,
If renault are found guilty then the FIA have no choice but to throw the book at them.
But then again the FIA dont have a vendetta against them like they seemed to have against Mclaren
Anyhoo to answer your question, my opinion is yes they will leave
Would be a sad day tho and F1 will suffer for it.
And for that very reason they won't be found guilty. Sadly.If renault are found guilty then the FIA have no choice but to throw the book at them.
But then again the FIA dont have a vendetta against them like they seemed to have against Mclaren
Anyhoo to answer your question, my opinion is yes they will leave
Would be a sad day tho and F1 will suffer for it.
Edited by philis on Friday 23 November 18:25
But the really silly thing is it's been happening for years.
Edited by rev-erend on Friday 23 November 19:51
skwdenyer said:
Hut49 said:
I expect that if Renault gets the book and a megabuck fine thrown at them they will be off the scene faster than the R27. I wonder who would buy the remains
Well, Prodrive would be an obvious candidate...A couple of years ago Mosly seemed bent (pun perhaps intended) on getting rid of the big manufacturers (save Fiat), as they were more likely to resist the FIA's capriciousness than an independent constructor could do. He could not get rid of them too quickly, however, because that would create a vacuum. His challenge would be to make a smooth transition from a technology/big bucks-led formula to something more quaint. It is hard for him to do that when it is primarily the current entrants and the organiser who negotiate the CA.
The customer car row creates another serious problem for Bernie and the schmuck at the FIA.
Renault could well leave if they are punished proportionately to how McLaren were, but separately Super Aguri and Toro Rosso should be bumping up against the same rule that kept out Prodrive.
What would F1 be like next year less Renault, Super Aguri and Toro Rosso? Sixteen cars would make a rather paltry grid.
Edited by flemke on Sunday 25th November 17:01
flemke said:
.
What would F1 be like next year less Renault, Super Aguri and Toro Rosso? Sixteen cars would make a rather paltry grid.
Agreed. F1 could be in a bit of bother next year. Renault are already making noises that they might pull the plug if they are found guilty (if they take their engines with them then that would drop Red Bull in the pooh as well.), Prodrive didn't make it, Torro Rosso might not be able to run next years Red Bull as their own car and even if Super Aguri don't go belly up in the close season (just laid off 40 staff.)they might not be able to run a customer chassis either.What would F1 be like next year less Renault, Super Aguri and Toro Rosso? Sixteen cars would make a rather paltry grid.
Edited by flemke on Sunday 25th November 17:01
Not looking good....
The Hypno-Toad said:
flemke said:
.
What would F1 be like next year less Renault, Super Aguri and Toro Rosso? Sixteen cars would make a rather paltry grid.
Agreed. F1 could be in a bit of bother next year. Renault are already making noises that they might pull the plug if they are found guilty (if they take their engines with them then that would drop Red Bull in the pooh as well.), Prodrive didn't make it, Torro Rosso might not be able to run next years Red Bull as their own car and even if Super Aguri don't go belly up in the close season (just laid off 40 staff.)they might not be able to run a customer chassis either.What would F1 be like next year less Renault, Super Aguri and Toro Rosso? Sixteen cars would make a rather paltry grid.
Edited by flemke on Sunday 25th November 17:01
Not looking good....
stockhatcher said:
the flip side of that is that if there are only 16 cars, the remaining teams are obliged to run 3 cars.... which i think would be better !
In some ways yes = Lots of good test drivers getting a drive & possibly showing up some of the fossils currently hogging seats. More coverage for the sponsors.In some ways no = More team order issues. Not so many big sponsors as they won't be able to swop between teams if the results aren't forthcoming.
Pit stops could be fun though, could be like queuing up for the Eurostar!!
If Renault really have the McLaren data in their system then they should suffer the same penalty as McLaren.
And Renault will probably withdraw.
Some other teams who don't really construct will have to go, if Williams have their way, and I agree with them too - if the rules say you need to be a constructor then you need to construct.
If the series organisers want stability then they need to work out a set of rules that everybody can work to and not penalise teams who benchmark their competitors and either improve or protest these designs.
The FIA should work out what is best for the sport in the long run and follow that path, all I see is everybody losing when the fans go, the sponsors go and the teams start to go bust.
And Renault will probably withdraw.
Some other teams who don't really construct will have to go, if Williams have their way, and I agree with them too - if the rules say you need to be a constructor then you need to construct.
If the series organisers want stability then they need to work out a set of rules that everybody can work to and not penalise teams who benchmark their competitors and either improve or protest these designs.
The FIA should work out what is best for the sport in the long run and follow that path, all I see is everybody losing when the fans go, the sponsors go and the teams start to go bust.
All this spygate thing is confusing me really.
If you go to itvf1, DC has a column on there to which he says "STR had the same car as us this year but nowhere near the same performance". Now ignoring the performance bit, he clearly states that Torro Rosso were running the SAME car.!! How can that be?
Prodrive can not compete, running a McLaren, but it seems STR and Super Aguri can run the cars of other teams. Super Aguri IIRC run the previous years Honda's.
But if STR are running the SAME car, how can this not be the IP issue too?
If you go to itvf1, DC has a column on there to which he says "STR had the same car as us this year but nowhere near the same performance". Now ignoring the performance bit, he clearly states that Torro Rosso were running the SAME car.!! How can that be?
Prodrive can not compete, running a McLaren, but it seems STR and Super Aguri can run the cars of other teams. Super Aguri IIRC run the previous years Honda's.
But if STR are running the SAME car, how can this not be the IP issue too?
toomuchbeer said:
All this spygate thing is confusing me really.
If you go to itvf1, DC has a column on there to which he says "STR had the same car as us this year but nowhere near the same performance". Now ignoring the performance bit, he clearly states that Torro Rosso were running the SAME car.!! How can that be?
Prodrive can not compete, running a McLaren, but it seems STR and Super Aguri can run the cars of other teams. Super Aguri IIRC run the previous years Honda's.
But if STR are running the SAME car, how can this not be the IP issue too?
Don't know about the first part, but in response to the last line...If you go to itvf1, DC has a column on there to which he says "STR had the same car as us this year but nowhere near the same performance". Now ignoring the performance bit, he clearly states that Torro Rosso were running the SAME car.!! How can that be?
Prodrive can not compete, running a McLaren, but it seems STR and Super Aguri can run the cars of other teams. Super Aguri IIRC run the previous years Honda's.
But if STR are running the SAME car, how can this not be the IP issue too?
You can sell IP, yer just not supposed to sneak it out in a brown paper bag and give it/sell it on the sly.
toomuchbeer said:
All this spygate thing is confusing me really.
If you go to itvf1, DC has a column on there to which he says "STR had the same car as us this year but nowhere near the same performance". Now ignoring the performance bit, he clearly states that Torro Rosso were running the SAME car.!! How can that be?
Prodrive can not compete, running a McLaren, but it seems STR and Super Aguri can run the cars of other teams. Super Aguri IIRC run the previous years Honda's.
But if STR are running the SAME car, how can this not be the IP issue too?
IIRC it's because they use different engine suppliers so the cars are deemed to be different enough. Not a terribly clever thing for DC to say all the same though, I'm pretty sure that's not the official stance of RBR.If you go to itvf1, DC has a column on there to which he says "STR had the same car as us this year but nowhere near the same performance". Now ignoring the performance bit, he clearly states that Torro Rosso were running the SAME car.!! How can that be?
Prodrive can not compete, running a McLaren, but it seems STR and Super Aguri can run the cars of other teams. Super Aguri IIRC run the previous years Honda's.
But if STR are running the SAME car, how can this not be the IP issue too?
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