Discussion
29 They could start with getting the real GT cars back in the series by making it worthwhile both in terms of a fair chance of winning on an even playing field, and value for the teams and drivers. The races are now too long for a full GT car, two driver cost set-up, driver fees are the same as when the races where 45 mins, but costs are almost double if you run for 75 mins. Add the time penalty for being a proper GT car, and in order to make it pay , you need to ask your drivers for twice as much as they paid last season. Then explain to them that no matter how hard they try, they can't win outright as 99% of the other cars are GTO or Cup class, who don,t need to refuel,or sit in the pits for 2 mins, before you can even think about changing a tyre. The leveling issue is something that can be resolved, and a system found that is fair to all classes, but the fundermental cost issue can only be resolved by cutting the races back to 45 mins, or making them 3+ hours long, with 3/4 paying/sponsored drivers
Just some observations, what do I know!!
>> Edited by TUSCAN 29 on Friday 8th August 18:24
TUSCAN 29 said:
They could start with getting the real GT cars back in the series by making it worthwhile both in terms of a fair chance of winning on an even playing field, and value for the teams and drivers. The races are now too long for a full GT car, two driver cost set-up, driver fees are the same as when the races where 45 mins, but costs are almost double if you run for 75 mins. Add the time penalty for being a proper GT car, and in order to make it pay , you need to ask your drivers for twice as much as they paid last season. Then explain to them that no matter how hard they try, they can't win outright as 99% of the other cars are GTO or Cup class, who don,t need to refuel,or sit in the pits for 2 mins, before you can even think about changing a tyre. The leveling issue is something that can be resolved, and a system found that is fair to all classes, but the fundermental cost issue can only be resolved by cutting the races back to 45 mins, or making them 3+ hours long, with 3/4 paying/sponsored drivers
Just some observations, what do I know!!
>> Edited by TUSCAN 29 on Friday 8th August 18:24
well said, the organisers really need to pull there fingers out. The one thing that needs to happen is much improved TV coverage.Don't agree Tuscan. The big appeal this year (for me at least) is that the races are longer than they ever have been.
GT racing is about endurance, not sprinting, always has been. Why would you pay that amount for a 45 minute race, drivers would not getting value for money in track time.
You currently have a car that would probably win every race if they were all 45-minutes long, so I can see where your coming from. But GT/Sportscar racing is about strategy and lasting the distance. Yes, you had to stop for 2 compulsary minutes, but that in the regs. There is a class for GT cars, you're in it as was the CMS viper. If more people got there fingers out and brought cars like that to the races then there would probably be a relaxation in the rules because there would be a fuller GT class grid.
If you race at Spa you'll be in with a chance of winning because everyone will have to wait for two minutes to refuel (many times over five + hours!) so that balances it out. Probably would have been the same if you'd raced at Silverstone.
It's not the regs that need that much changing for next year to be honest. We have had some great racing in the series this year. The Donington opener was brilliant and there have been some superb battle throughout the grid all year long and there is now a three way battle for the championship, which in competition terms is fantastic! All that needs to happen is that the series needs a full time corporate sponsor, one that is willing to put enough money in at each round to get the punters through the gate. If the spectators are there it makes it a damn site easier to get team sponsors interested and there fore people can run for the full season rather than one or two races.
GT racing is about endurance, not sprinting, always has been. Why would you pay that amount for a 45 minute race, drivers would not getting value for money in track time.
You currently have a car that would probably win every race if they were all 45-minutes long, so I can see where your coming from. But GT/Sportscar racing is about strategy and lasting the distance. Yes, you had to stop for 2 compulsary minutes, but that in the regs. There is a class for GT cars, you're in it as was the CMS viper. If more people got there fingers out and brought cars like that to the races then there would probably be a relaxation in the rules because there would be a fuller GT class grid.
If you race at Spa you'll be in with a chance of winning because everyone will have to wait for two minutes to refuel (many times over five + hours!) so that balances it out. Probably would have been the same if you'd raced at Silverstone.
It's not the regs that need that much changing for next year to be honest. We have had some great racing in the series this year. The Donington opener was brilliant and there have been some superb battle throughout the grid all year long and there is now a three way battle for the championship, which in competition terms is fantastic! All that needs to happen is that the series needs a full time corporate sponsor, one that is willing to put enough money in at each round to get the punters through the gate. If the spectators are there it makes it a damn site easier to get team sponsors interested and there fore people can run for the full season rather than one or two races.
Racefan said "Don't agree Tuscan",etc,etc
Fair enough, so we will have to agree to "disagree" as I maintain that the races have become too long for GT cars to be viable. How many have raced this season? and if everything is so honky dorey, why have they all gone off to do real endurance racing in FIA GT? Is it because that is a more even playing field, and drivers/sponsors are prepared to pay more for thier racing, hence making it financially viable, in view of it's greater appeal, the TV coverage, a vast European fan base, and it's high prestige value, and lets not forget the LG sponsorship and prize fund, ................ possibly.
British GT is somewhere in the middle of sprint and endurance racing, 45 mins allowed the "gentleman" drivers, who mainly funded the drives, to do 20 mins, then hand over to the professional to finish off. Now with the races going on for 75 mins the costs for running the cars has almost doubled. So who pays........? The drivers and sponsors don't want to pay any more,hell,for the same money they can get into FIA GT or just about. What you are left with is an unsaleable/unwinable drive, Hence NO or very few GT cars this season.
29.......... as I said at the end of my first post, what do I know, it's only my view from what I see via my connections with a GT team, I race in Tuscans, and every one knows that Tuscan drivers are "brainless" 
Fair enough, so we will have to agree to "disagree" as I maintain that the races have become too long for GT cars to be viable. How many have raced this season? and if everything is so honky dorey, why have they all gone off to do real endurance racing in FIA GT? Is it because that is a more even playing field, and drivers/sponsors are prepared to pay more for thier racing, hence making it financially viable, in view of it's greater appeal, the TV coverage, a vast European fan base, and it's high prestige value, and lets not forget the LG sponsorship and prize fund, ................ possibly.
British GT is somewhere in the middle of sprint and endurance racing, 45 mins allowed the "gentleman" drivers, who mainly funded the drives, to do 20 mins, then hand over to the professional to finish off. Now with the races going on for 75 mins the costs for running the cars has almost doubled. So who pays........? The drivers and sponsors don't want to pay any more,hell,for the same money they can get into FIA GT or just about. What you are left with is an unsaleable/unwinable drive, Hence NO or very few GT cars this season.
29.......... as I said at the end of my first post, what do I know, it's only my view from what I see via my connections with a GT team, I race in Tuscans, and every one knows that Tuscan drivers are "brainless" Hmm. Well from my point of view, as a member of one of the teams, I'm thoroughly enjoying the races this year. The variation in race lengths is a great technical and strategic challenge, which we've enjoyed adapting to.
I am undoubtedly looking at it from the standpoint of a GTO team, but the championship needed 'something' doing to it for this season. A similar situation was starting to exist as the one that led to the demise of GT1 in '99 - too few cars in the top class and races that saw no real battles at the front. We all knew the cars were out there, but they weren't racing regularly enough to retain a clear class distinction (though I realise the Blower Ultima was a regular last year). There doesn't seem to be the money available to run a dozen top-drawer GT class cars in this country. Yes, the problems with the ISC, dropping of PowerTour and the loss of the Championship sponsor have all been detrimental, but there's a lack of motor racing cash in Britain.
For the race lengths, maybe we should go the Belcar or Veedol Cup routes - each at three hours or so - but the whole infrastructure of the races and support races would have to change. Then we'd have to reduce the number of races too, because the cars would get a 70% increase in track time over the weekend, like at Silverstone. Perhaps that is the way to go - eight long distance races in the year, like Belcar. They'd have to be three hours though, because the two-hour race we had at Snet was a very strange affair without any action, as we all had the same strategy. However, I think the current system deserves another year to see how many extra teams we can get - perhaps with another couple of three-hour races.
Yes, the pit stops for fuel are strange and, really, far too long but, again, this was implemented for a reason. No one wanted to see dangerous situations caused by over-enthusiastic teams trying to re-fuel too quickly, but the time limit for the stops is too long, in our team's opinion. The two minutes should really include any tyre changes, though retaining the FIA rule that no work occurs on the car during re-fuelling, of course.
It's a difficult situation, because the Championship has undergone some radical changes for this year and we've lost several top teams to the FIA series. This was always going to be a building year and I'm confident that we'll have many more cars next year, but we need to encourage people and tell them that it's not as expensive as they think. It's probably not much more expensive to race in our series these days than in the Porsche Open - drivers 'only' need to find a driver with the same budget as them and they're away and racing. We ran last year on a truly tiny budget (really, it was incredibly small), but gave a decent account of ourselves. If you can afford to race a Tuscan, then you can afford buy a GT drive. Which is probably where the TVR T350C should come in handy.
Tuscan 29, perhaps your chaps should convert your car to GTO, as Master Motorsport did, then you wouldn't have to stop for fuel. Okay, not really worth it for Thruxton, but for next year...?
(Mainly my points of view and not necessarily those of the team.)
Steve @ Eclipse.
>> Edited by Ahonen on Saturday 9th August 20:29
I am undoubtedly looking at it from the standpoint of a GTO team, but the championship needed 'something' doing to it for this season. A similar situation was starting to exist as the one that led to the demise of GT1 in '99 - too few cars in the top class and races that saw no real battles at the front. We all knew the cars were out there, but they weren't racing regularly enough to retain a clear class distinction (though I realise the Blower Ultima was a regular last year). There doesn't seem to be the money available to run a dozen top-drawer GT class cars in this country. Yes, the problems with the ISC, dropping of PowerTour and the loss of the Championship sponsor have all been detrimental, but there's a lack of motor racing cash in Britain.
For the race lengths, maybe we should go the Belcar or Veedol Cup routes - each at three hours or so - but the whole infrastructure of the races and support races would have to change. Then we'd have to reduce the number of races too, because the cars would get a 70% increase in track time over the weekend, like at Silverstone. Perhaps that is the way to go - eight long distance races in the year, like Belcar. They'd have to be three hours though, because the two-hour race we had at Snet was a very strange affair without any action, as we all had the same strategy. However, I think the current system deserves another year to see how many extra teams we can get - perhaps with another couple of three-hour races.
Yes, the pit stops for fuel are strange and, really, far too long but, again, this was implemented for a reason. No one wanted to see dangerous situations caused by over-enthusiastic teams trying to re-fuel too quickly, but the time limit for the stops is too long, in our team's opinion. The two minutes should really include any tyre changes, though retaining the FIA rule that no work occurs on the car during re-fuelling, of course.
It's a difficult situation, because the Championship has undergone some radical changes for this year and we've lost several top teams to the FIA series. This was always going to be a building year and I'm confident that we'll have many more cars next year, but we need to encourage people and tell them that it's not as expensive as they think. It's probably not much more expensive to race in our series these days than in the Porsche Open - drivers 'only' need to find a driver with the same budget as them and they're away and racing. We ran last year on a truly tiny budget (really, it was incredibly small), but gave a decent account of ourselves. If you can afford to race a Tuscan, then you can afford buy a GT drive. Which is probably where the TVR T350C should come in handy.
Tuscan 29, perhaps your chaps should convert your car to GTO, as Master Motorsport did, then you wouldn't have to stop for fuel. Okay, not really worth it for Thruxton, but for next year...?
(Mainly my points of view and not necessarily those of the team.)
Steve @ Eclipse.
>> Edited by Ahonen on Saturday 9th August 20:29
Im sorry, but fair enough having longer races when theres a decent grid, but with the grid being so poor this year its just not good for racing. Last year would have been good for longer races. The organisers im sure have a long term plan and i damn well hope its a good one, GT racing is brilliant and i really want to see more machinery in the class and more GT spec cars, one inparticular aswell 
Personally I think the championship should adoprt Belcar rules, opening it up to a far wider variety of machinery. And much, much more has to be done to pull in the punters. Theres a large fanbase out there for top class supercars like 911 Turbos, Moslers, Saleens, Ultima's, Ferrari's etc racing against each other, but they don't know the championship exists, becuase its poorly promoted, the TV coverage is frankly crap, and on at a stupid time, and it gets no coverage outside the specialist press. The organisers need to work harder on making it worthwhile for teams. If the series got the coverage, then many teams budget problems would disappear, because finding sponsors would be much easier. This would then pave the way for proper, long distance endurance races. I think the championship has come on in leaps and bounds this year, as the 23 entries at Oulton Park showed. Belcar is getting 45-50 entries a race though, in varied, top class machinery, ranging from supertourers, to Vipers, to some very tricked up 911 Turbos. There are no cars like the Golf, which, whilst being reasonably competitive, makes a bit of a mockery of the term 'GT car' (no offence to the team. I'm speaking from a huge sportscar racing fan's point of view). The Championship has come a long way since Donington in April, but its got a long way to go
I have to say I agree with a lot of the comments here.
The biggest single problem from an entrants point of view is that it's nothing like a flat playing field and it's too expencive to try and make the difference up.
Take GTC class, only car that is competative is a GT3, to get any of the others to that pace requires huge investment in both the car and the team.
Then you look at GTO, and appart from the TVR & Porsche, what the **** are the rest of them? when did you ever see a Mosler MT900R or a GM Chevrolet Corvette C5 driving down the road?
these cars are purpose built to race, they are not even close to a proper road-going GT car (ala. Ferarri 550/Jag XKR/Maserati/etc.)
remeber what happend to TOCA when super tourers lost all relation to 'road cars'
If you want to build prototypes to race, then that's what LMP675/900/SR3/Etc. classes are for.
IMHO a lot could be learned from the way EERC is shaping up...
The biggest single problem from an entrants point of view is that it's nothing like a flat playing field and it's too expencive to try and make the difference up.
Take GTC class, only car that is competative is a GT3, to get any of the others to that pace requires huge investment in both the car and the team.
Then you look at GTO, and appart from the TVR & Porsche, what the **** are the rest of them? when did you ever see a Mosler MT900R or a GM Chevrolet Corvette C5 driving down the road?
these cars are purpose built to race, they are not even close to a proper road-going GT car (ala. Ferarri 550/Jag XKR/Maserati/etc.)
remeber what happend to TOCA when super tourers lost all relation to 'road cars'
If you want to build prototypes to race, then that's what LMP675/900/SR3/Etc. classes are for.
IMHO a lot could be learned from the way EERC is shaping up...
I've seen plenty of Corvette C5's on the road. Mosler's aren't imported into this country yet, but if you ask Martin Short for one and pay him, he'll get you one. All the cars in British GT are road based. You don't see many Vipers, and I've never seen a road Saleen in real life, but no one complained about them when they raced in the championship. The cars are SUPPOSED to be exotic. If you want to watch everyday cars racing, go watch the British Boring Car Championship
Although, you do realise that if you go over to FLorida and part with your hard earned cash you can actually have a Mosler on the road, once it's been built for you, so, compared to the 911GT1 and the Lister Storms of this world, it is a lot more real... And as for the Corvette, well, I've seen dozens on the road, surely you must have too at some point Scuffham?
So, we have some people out there who liked the old days when we had GT1 class cars because they were big and noisy and fast. And, now they're too expensive and old to run, we have a new breed of cars and people don't like it?
GET A GRIP PEOPLE!!! This is GT racing, not the flippin BTCC. If you want a car that looks like it could take a family of four on a picnic and that you could pick one up on the forecourt of your local second hand car salesman, then go and pay your money to watch the Touring cars during the season.
You'll never have a full grid of cars in GT racing that are showroom spec, NEVER HAPPEN! Why? Because the nature of running GT/Sportscars is that they're diferent from the things people drive on the road eveyday. That's part of the appeal, no? I want to see cars that I will never see drive past me on the M4, cars that are capable of incredibly high speeds with incredibly high amounts of horsepower.
(Sorry, rant over, will step down of the milk crate now.)
Edited to say that I was beaten to it due to my long rant! I'll shut up now! ;-)
>> Edited by Racefan_uk on Sunday 10th August 18:48
So, we have some people out there who liked the old days when we had GT1 class cars because they were big and noisy and fast. And, now they're too expensive and old to run, we have a new breed of cars and people don't like it?
GET A GRIP PEOPLE!!! This is GT racing, not the flippin BTCC. If you want a car that looks like it could take a family of four on a picnic and that you could pick one up on the forecourt of your local second hand car salesman, then go and pay your money to watch the Touring cars during the season.
You'll never have a full grid of cars in GT racing that are showroom spec, NEVER HAPPEN! Why? Because the nature of running GT/Sportscars is that they're diferent from the things people drive on the road eveyday. That's part of the appeal, no? I want to see cars that I will never see drive past me on the M4, cars that are capable of incredibly high speeds with incredibly high amounts of horsepower.
(Sorry, rant over, will step down of the milk crate now.)
Edited to say that I was beaten to it due to my long rant! I'll shut up now! ;-)
>> Edited by Racefan_uk on Sunday 10th August 18:48
Sorry?
The viper (for exapmple) is a VERY common road car, as was about as such for sometime before being a GT car.
I agree that the C5 Corvette is also a road car, but it's somewhat detached from the racing one, as is the mustang.
Your comments on the Lister are correct, yet another GT special.
Much as I loved the GT-1 days, it was never going to last once makers were spending millions on them, and making the required 25 road cars...
The basic popint I am making is that once you start to let very low volume cars in, then it's back to money again.
My view is that unless it's a fully *Road* homologated car (as in EU road homologation) and based on the road-going car, then what's the point?
the net result is that you end up with small grids, presdictable racing, and dwindling interest.
Don't get me wrong, I love GT racing, but what we have here is somewhat detached from the ideal.
The viper (for exapmple) is a VERY common road car, as was about as such for sometime before being a GT car.
I agree that the C5 Corvette is also a road car, but it's somewhat detached from the racing one, as is the mustang.
Your comments on the Lister are correct, yet another GT special.
Much as I loved the GT-1 days, it was never going to last once makers were spending millions on them, and making the required 25 road cars...
The basic popint I am making is that once you start to let very low volume cars in, then it's back to money again.
My view is that unless it's a fully *Road* homologated car (as in EU road homologation) and based on the road-going car, then what's the point?
the net result is that you end up with small grids, presdictable racing, and dwindling interest.
Don't get me wrong, I love GT racing, but what we have here is somewhat detached from the ideal.
Personally I think, that if the British GT Championship is given 2 or 3 seasons wothout some knee jerk regs changes, then 35 or 40 car grids will be possible. Brunswick, who are running an Elise this year, want to add a Mazda RX-7 to the team for nexy year. I think the championship has also provided some fantastic racing this year. Anyone who saw the last lap at Donington can't fail to have been excited by it. The Silverstone race was brilliant. Oulton was a good race too. They're the only three I've been to this year, and I've thoroughly enjoyed them all. I don't care if the car is raod homologated in the EU or not. I want a big, fast, noisy, full on GT car
scuffham said:
Sorry?
The basic popint I am making is that once you start to let very low volume cars in, then it's back to money again.
My view is that unless it's a fully *Road* homologated car (as in EU road homologation) and based on the road-going car, then what's the point?
the net result is that you end up with small grids, presdictable racing, and dwindling interest.
Don't get me wrong, I love GT racing, but what we have here is somewhat detached from the ideal.
So what's the ideal? Everyone has a different vision of what that should be.
With regards to the price statement, from what I understand GT racing is as expensive as you make it. Apparantly you can pick up a Mosler for similar money as a TVR 400R and both cars are front runners in the series. Running costs can't be that bad, otherwise people wouldn't run at all. I know it is costly, but where do you draw the line, you'll never have free racing, especially from a team standpoint!
And why worry about fully homologated 'road' cars? The FIA GT series is as healthy as its ever been and there are definately not too many Lister Storms on the road or spec'd up 550 Ferrari's either! But the racing is what its all about.
There are seven cars regualrly on the GT grid that have been in with a chance of getting onto the podium or winning a race this season, eight at Thruxton with the TMC Ferrari. Ok, that's poor for the top class, but at least they are relatively competitive. And over the last three years there has never been more than three top class cars that were in title contention! (Lister Storm, Speed 12 and last year Saleen S7R and before that the Hayles racing Viper). At least there are more cars that are capable of winning this year, that's a step forward.
I agree, three or four years would see a very healthy grid because teams could plan on a certain car. Be it a TVR, Mosler, Corvette whatever and develop it and keep it quick.
scuffham said:
The viper (for exapmple) is a VERY common road car, as was about as such for sometime before being a GT car.
hmmmmmmm well in this country ive only seen 9 road going vipers, there are very few in this country, less than 70 last time i was told, so that hardly makes them common?! Not sure about the USA though.viperman said:
The viper (for exapmple) is a VERY common road car, as was about as such for sometime before being a GT car.
Try Germany, several hundered there, and if you include US, then there are thousands of them.
I am not so narrow minded to think that all cars should be ok UK roads, just that they should be a proper 'production' car, not SVA'ed (or equivalent) low volume specials.
It's not like there are not enough serise for proper sports prototypes, so why allow them in GT?
To my mind, Porche have it absolutely right, with the exception of the GT-1, ALL there cars are freely avaliable as either road or race cars.
viperman said:
The viper (for exapmple) is a VERY common road car, as was about as such for sometime before being a GT car.
You've counted how many you've ever seen??? Funnily enough I saw a blue Viper in rural gloucestershire on Saturday. Didn't we have the Viper club or something similar run a bunch of road going cars at a GT race a couple of years ago? Rockingham rings a bell? Loads of them....
But then, I've seen a road going Lister Storm!
I'm with the logic that GT's are supposed to be different from "normal" cars, otherwise we might as well stick to touring cars. Yes ETCC is doing well but it is a touring car series and it's not what I want to see.
I'm interested in the comment further up (can't remember who) that running 75 minute races doubles costs over shorter races. Can you explain why? I'd have thought that a lot of the fixed costs (team accomodation, transport etc) would remain the same so it wouldn't be much more expensive. I'm interested in why the costs go up so much - can someone (who knows) explain? Thanks.
Piglet said:
I'm interested in the comment further up (can't remember who) that running 75 minute races doubles costs over shorter races. Can you explain why? I'd have thought that a lot of the fixed costs (team accomodation, transport etc) would remain the same so it wouldn't be much more expensive. I'm interested in why the costs go up so much - can someone (who knows) explain? Thanks.
29 Time is money........ 1x 45min race x 12 race weekends plus testing plus warm up's = £xxxxxxx
12 race weekends of 75mins plus the odd 3hr race, plus testing plus warm up's = £££££££ more It's like running 2 seasons in one, engines, gearboxes, diffs, etc, etc ware and tear in a word. Add tyres x8, fuel, and other cosumables and "bingo" the budgets just gone to shit.
British GT should really be a 60 min "sprint" race, that's long enough for all concerned, teams and spectators alike,lets keep it exciting for those who watch and affordable for those that drive,pay,and sponsor.
Sorry, still don't agree, at all.
GT racing is about endurance racing. Everty driver I have spoken to has said that the longer races this year have been better than season's past and that they are happier that they are getting more seat time for their £'s.
If I were paying for a drive on a ride by ride basis and I was only getting 20 minutes for my money, I'd go and do something else!
Drivers want more track time for their budget, simple. And the British GT series gives them that this season. Also, the longer races give a better learning ground should any team/driver want to move up the ladder into FIA/ALMS/Le Mans etc. A 45 minute sprint race won't. If a driver wants to drive hard for 30-40 minutes, go and drive a Tuscan or Caterham, not a GT car.
GT racing is about endurance racing. Everty driver I have spoken to has said that the longer races this year have been better than season's past and that they are happier that they are getting more seat time for their £'s.
If I were paying for a drive on a ride by ride basis and I was only getting 20 minutes for my money, I'd go and do something else!
Drivers want more track time for their budget, simple. And the British GT series gives them that this season. Also, the longer races give a better learning ground should any team/driver want to move up the ladder into FIA/ALMS/Le Mans etc. A 45 minute sprint race won't. If a driver wants to drive hard for 30-40 minutes, go and drive a Tuscan or Caterham, not a GT car.
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