Your favourite 'cheats' in motorsport

Your favourite 'cheats' in motorsport

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Discussion

Krikkit

19,494 posts

139 months

Tuesday 15th October 2019
quotequote all
bucksmanuk said:
People underestimate what others are prepared to spend in the most basic clubby championships. These are real values for someone who won a bottom of the league hot hatch championship. Most of the grid had £5-10k cars.
This is what sometimes puts me off putting an entry together for club racing, even the super regulated stuff like C2s/EnduroKa/116 Trophy sounds like a lot of money gets spent against the spirit of the rules.

Have we had the full set of Smokey's mods? I know we've said the huge fuel line trick.

There was also the flat-floor car that he put in - the underside was unregulated, so he went to town smoothing it all out.

Then there was a car with super-soft front springs to induce enormous rake and give downforce - only raced once then quietly banned.

ribiero

441 posts

124 months

Wednesday 16th October 2019
quotequote all
bucksmanuk said:

People underestimate what others are prepared to spend in the most basic clubby championships. These are real values for someone who won a bottom of the league hot hatch championship. Most of the grid had £5-10k cars.
£10k on dampers, and the car being returned to the factory in Germany for setting up on their chassis dyno.
Another £10K on the last word in engine preparation.
A £18K tyre bill – I still can’t believe this….
All the suspension bushes were legal but certainly not in the sprit of the regulations.
Trying out 13 ECUs and finding a good working one with the highest rev limiter, there’s a tolerance on them of just +/- 150 rpm.
The driver having tuition off a BTCC driver and at least one days full testing and tuition on the track in the week prior to the meeting.
The car went back to a professional race preparation team every time for further work/repairs, - usually further work.
A budget of £60k a year – EVERY YEAR.
For one driver in one car….in a bottom of the league hot hatch championship….
Hot Hatch Championships are properly weaponised at the front, i'm surprised how much money is thrown into the Combe championship, let alone a national one like the 750mc!

AllyBassman

662 posts

70 months

Wednesday 16th October 2019
quotequote all
I heard one recently - not sure how true it is though.

A BTCC team caught wind that the person doing the ride-height scrutineering was not recognised as being qualified to do so.

So they sent their cars out with illegal ride heights for the obvious performance advantage.

Once the session ended and their cars were tested and subesquently failed the ride height test - they appealed citing that the scrutineer was not qualified to perform the test. Their appeal was upheld!

bucksmanuk

1,546 posts

128 months

Thursday 17th October 2019
quotequote all
AllyBassman said:
I heard one recently - not sure how true it is though.

A BTCC team caught wind that the person doing the ride-height scrutineering was not recognised as being qualified to do so.

So they sent their cars out with illegal ride heights for the obvious performance advantage.

Once the session ended and their cars were tested and subesquently failed the ride height test - they appealed citing that the scrutineer was not qualified to perform the test. Their appeal was upheld!
There are a number of individuals who are attached to certain championships who call themselves scrutineers, because they do certain checks on the cars. The checks are the basic ones such as ride height, weight etc… They are not qualified scrutineers. They have no licence. The vast majority are a pleasure to deal with and know they are there to police with a light touch and do very basic checks as stated. Almost anyone on the day can be a championship technical assistant as long as they realise where their talents as well as their authorities and responsibilities end. 20% of them don’t and we have problems with these individuals.

If anything “dodgy” should arise, the championship technical assistant should inform the chief or a relevant eligibility scrutineer, and then that licenced person will do the checks, and if appropriate, paperwork is issued and then the fun starts. This paperwork can only come from a chief or a relevant eligibility scrutineer.

If lots of checks have to be done, and time is of the essence then it’s certainly possible that a non-scrutineer could be doing checks. Pit lane marshals can be, and are used, but they would only ever say “this is wrong, over to the eligibility scrutineer to do something about it”. Motorsports UK would hesitate to hand out the relevant forms to a non-eligibility scrutineer and would probably refuse to hand them out to a non-scrutineer.

I must admit it sounds unlikely that at a BTCC meeting there would be such a shortage of scrutineers that non-qualified people would be used and even less likely to be issuing paperwork. These forms require signatures from the eligibility scrutineer, the chief, and get passed in front of the clerk and the stewards. Licence numbers have to be on the paperwork. T’s are crossed and I’s are dotted on these forms and checked by A.N. Other scrutineer. I know the chief who does BTCC meetings. I would be amazed if he let that happen.

We’ll see if there’s anything in the Motorsports UK magazine. Its always good to read the disciplinaries at the back, and the normal “bringing the sport in to disrepute” from karting dads!

Going off topic - but probably of interest to some reading this.

“There are a number of individuals who are attached to certain championships who call themselves scrutineers, because they do certain checks on the cars. “
I’ll explain why this is the case. There are a number of championships which have a track record of a massive turnover of scrutineers, one a year etc.. and sometimes even more. This is for one or more of the following reasons: -
The championship co-ordinator wants it all to run their way and the rules bending to support the championship or their best mate who is doing well in it.
The championship co-ordinator is a "challenge".
A number of the competitors are "challenges" and giving up quality weekend free time to deal with these people isn’t a pleasure any more.
The rule book is so badly written, there isn't a hope in hell of policing the championship properly.
The organising club aren’t covering the scrutineer’s expenses properly.
Other reasons can be added as we go along.

Hence a shortage of younger scrutineers coming through, so an increase in the championship technical assistant. Many times I’m the youngest (or second youngest) scrutineer at a meeting and I’m 54…

MyVTECGoesBwaaah

725 posts

100 months

Thursday 17th October 2019
quotequote all
bucksmanuk said:
AllyBassman said:
I heard one recently - not sure how true it is though.

A BTCC team caught wind that the person doing the ride-height scrutineering was not recognised as being qualified to do so.

So they sent their cars out with illegal ride heights for the obvious performance advantage.

Once the session ended and their cars were tested and subesquently failed the ride height test - they appealed citing that the scrutineer was not qualified to perform the test. Their appeal was upheld!
There are a number of individuals who are attached to certain championships who call themselves scrutineers, because they do certain checks on the cars. The checks are the basic ones such as ride height, weight etc… They are not qualified scrutineers. They have no licence. The vast majority are a pleasure to deal with and know they are there to police with a light touch and do very basic checks as stated. Almost anyone on the day can be a championship technical assistant as long as they realise where their talents as well as their authorities and responsibilities end. 20% of them don’t and we have problems with these individuals.

If anything “dodgy” should arise, the championship technical assistant should inform the chief or a relevant eligibility scrutineer, and then that licenced person will do the checks, and if appropriate, paperwork is issued and then the fun starts. This paperwork can only come from a chief or a relevant eligibility scrutineer.

If lots of checks have to be done, and time is of the essence then it’s certainly possible that a non-scrutineer could be doing checks. Pit lane marshals can be, and are used, but they would only ever say “this is wrong, over to the eligibility scrutineer to do something about it”. Motorsports UK would hesitate to hand out the relevant forms to a non-eligibility scrutineer and would probably refuse to hand them out to a non-scrutineer.

I must admit it sounds unlikely that at a BTCC meeting there would be such a shortage of scrutineers that non-qualified people would be used and even less likely to be issuing paperwork. These forms require signatures from the eligibility scrutineer, the chief, and get passed in front of the clerk and the stewards. Licence numbers have to be on the paperwork. T’s are crossed and I’s are dotted on these forms and checked by A.N. Other scrutineer. I know the chief who does BTCC meetings. I would be amazed if he let that happen.

We’ll see if there’s anything in the Motorsports UK magazine. Its always good to read the disciplinaries at the back, and the normal “bringing the sport in to disrepute” from karting dads!

Going off topic - but probably of interest to some reading this.

“There are a number of individuals who are attached to certain championships who call themselves scrutineers, because they do certain checks on the cars. “
I’ll explain why this is the case. There are a number of championships which have a track record of a massive turnover of scrutineers, one a year etc.. and sometimes even more. This is for one or more of the following reasons: -
The championship co-ordinator wants it all to run their way and the rules bending to support the championship or their best mate who is doing well in it.
The championship co-ordinator is a "challenge".
A number of the competitors are "challenges" and giving up quality weekend free time to deal with these people isn’t a pleasure any more.
The rule book is so badly written, there isn't a hope in hell of policing the championship properly.
The organising club aren’t covering the scrutineer’s expenses properly.
Other reasons can be added as we go along.

Hence a shortage of younger scrutineers coming through, so an increase in the championship technical assistant. Many times I’m the youngest (or second youngest) scrutineer at a meeting and I’m 54…
I believe this may be the incident in question:

https://www.autosport.com/btcc/news/131017/neal-ga...

AllyBassman

662 posts

70 months

Thursday 17th October 2019
quotequote all
MyVTECGoesBwaaah said:
I believe this may be the incident in question:

https://www.autosport.com/btcc/news/131017/neal-ga...
haha it sure is! I didn't realise it was public knowledge..... I can now shed the weight of the secret... biggrin

I was told they sent the car near enough scraping along the ground, the other teams could clrearly see that the car was too low and would fail the ride height test!


Edited by AllyBassman on Thursday 17th October 10:44

shirt

19,923 posts

159 months

Thursday 17th October 2019
quotequote all
Also surprised that was allowed to happen. I’m a scrutineer and we don’t make decisions, just observe. If anything is found out of spec or untoward it gets reported to the chief scrutineer/fia tech delegate who would recheck and act accordingly.

clubracing

287 posts

164 months

Thursday 17th October 2019
quotequote all
bucksmanuk said:
The championship co-ordinator wants it all to run their way and the rules bending to support the championship or their best mate who is doing well in it.
The championship co-ordinator is a "challenge".
A number of the competitors are "challenges" and giving up quality weekend free time to deal with these people isn’t a pleasure any more.
The rule book is so badly written, there isn't a hope in hell of policing the championship properly.
There's no denying that there are difficult coordinators and competitors, but equally there are difficult championship eligibility scrutineers. Some scrutineers who for obvious reasons don't have the same level of knowledge about technical aspects of the cars as the people who build and work them all the time, but still think they know better about how to write and police specific technical details in the regulations. They ignore advice and their checks don't cover all the ways people try to circumvent the regulations.

shirt said:
Also surprised that was allowed to happen. I’m a scrutineer and we don’t make decisions, just observe. If anything is found out of spec or untoward it gets reported to the chief scrutineer/fia tech delegate who would recheck and act accordingly.
From the Autosport article;

"A non-official had assisted with weighing and ride height checking process. BTCC rules stipulate that only registered officials and scrutineers can enter the weighing area."

Sounds like a 'non-official' was helping out in the wighing area who shouldn't have been, making all of the eligibility checks invalid regardless of who did them. Procedural mistakes by scrutineers seem a fairly common reason for appeals to be upheld judging by the MSUK national court reports.

shirt

19,923 posts

159 months

Thursday 17th October 2019
quotequote all
I guess someone’s mate or similar.

I’ve got a day’s scrutineering training tomorrow actually. Then the exam in November. Should be FIA silver level if my previous experience is all counted and hoping to make the cut for F1 duty.

FourWheelDrift

80,794 posts

242 months

Saturday 19th October 2019
quotequote all
Have we had the Penske Camaro - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkWEmfNmXiE

Oilchange

6,381 posts

218 months

Monday 10th August
quotequote all
RedexR said:
My least favourite cheats are the ones that involve parking your car on the track to stop other cars outqualifying you , knocking your opponent off the track in the title deciding race and witholding technical data to stop your team mates car being as fast...can you guess who ???
Schumacher/Herbert/Briatorre/Benetton ?


Read Herberts book, if he ever out paced Schumacher in practice Briatorre would ensure the ecu was turned down so Schumacher had the advantage. Also Schumacher could see all of Herberts data, but Herbert could not see Schumachers, favouritism...

When Herbert won in Italy, Briatorre was so incensed he stole Herberts No1 hat and it disappeared never to be seen again.
Briatorre was a spiteful piece of work...

zeb

2,986 posts

176 months

Monday 10th August
quotequote all
MyVTECGoesBwaaah said:
I believe this may be the incident in question:

https://www.autosport.com/btcc/news/131017/neal-ga...
ah.....matt neal....the fans favourite.....



to$$er

Sebring440

657 posts

54 months

Monday 10th August
quotequote all
zeb said:
MyVTECGoesBwaaah said:
I believe this may be the incident in question:

https://www.autosport.com/btcc/news/131017/neal-ga...
ah.....matt neal....the fans favourite.....



to$$er
You're a bit late to the party mate.

grumpy52

4,469 posts

124 months

Tuesday 11th August
quotequote all
A clerk of the course that is on the ball and brave enough can deal with most things with " Behaviour not compatible with the sporting ethics of a race meeting " or words to that effect .
I have witnessed it being used a couple of times with the result of the offenders being removed from the meeting and all records being eradicated. Once for blatant cheating and once for very very poor and unsporting driving behaviour ( female driver ! )
The problem is that when large amounts of money are involved in the sport then they involve expensive legal bods and sporting ethics goes out of the window and the ruling bodies are paranoid about the financial implications. Similar to football the ruling bodies are not particularly robust.

Roofless Toothless

2,967 posts

90 months

Thursday 13th August
quotequote all
An entertaining old thread.

The very first post contains the story of the 100 foot fuel line and reminds me of something that happened with my kids when we were Cadet kart racing in the late eighties.

The little Comer engines that we used had a rudimentary fuel filter built into the carburettor. One day I noticed that some of the guys up the front of the grid at Rye House had contraptions the size of a small baked bean can on the fuel line between the tank and engine. In conversation with another dad I was told they were fuel filters, which struck me as a bit of overkill, by hey-ho, if that's what you want, go ahead.

Now my knowledge of engineering a kart was commensurate with our normal position to the back of the grid, and even when told about some of a cheats going on I couldn't understand it, let alone duplicate the ruse. I thought no more about the fuel filters until it was pointed out to me that if you filled the tank with pump fuel (as required) and the fuel line with its capacious filter with rocket fuel, the illegal stuff would be burnt off in the first lap or two, just sufficient to get an advantage but invisible to the scrutineer at the end of the race.

Some time later I read in one of the magazines that the RAC had managed to liberate a note book from a supplier of illegal fuel, and it contained some very interesting phone numbers, including that of the father of a very successful Cadet racer indeed, and one you would have heard of I'm sure.

You wouldn't believe the stuff that I was told went on in Cadet karting, rule stretching to downright cheating. The first time I noticed someone bending over behind my boy's kart sniffing the exhaust I took it as a great compliment, meaning we were finally getting somewhere!

Kevin_Birth

85 posts

5 months

Thursday 13th August
quotequote all
lol, that has to be hamilton surely. back when I was karting it was the Christodoulous who were always being found out doing one thing or another.

Shame my dad never ran me with rocket fuel frown

PPEhero

180 posts

33 months

Thursday 13th August
quotequote all
I know a driver of a class 7 twin hayabusa grasstrack car that has been done for using some sort of plug in traction control. No electronic aids are allowed.

The money some of the drivers spend now is insane, rumour has it his car cost £100k to build.

Roofless Toothless

2,967 posts

90 months

Thursday 13th August
quotequote all
Kevin_Birth said:
lol, that has to be hamilton surely. back when I was karting it was the Christodoulous who were always being found out doing one thing or another.

Shame my dad never ran me with rocket fuel frown
I'm afraid not. This was a year or two before Hamilton started.I really don't want to name who I am talking about.

grumpy52

4,469 posts

124 months

Thursday 13th August
quotequote all
I don't know if I have posted this one before , racing trucks are limited to 100mph , one team were eventually caught with one of their drivers having an electronic cheat device built into his race suit that plugged into the dash .
I do miss getting the newsletters that had all the cheats that had been discovered listed at the back of the letter .
Very little in the way of new cheats just more sophisticated ways of doing them and avoiding them.
The more insidious ones are those with legal challenges pre prepared to reduce the penalties when caught .

Yazza54

15,948 posts

139 months

Thursday 13th August
quotequote all
Kevin_Birth said:
lol, that has to be hamilton surely. back when I was karting it was the Christodoulous who were always being found out doing one thing or another.

Shame my dad never ran me with rocket fuel frown
They were all up to no good.

I remember practicing at chase water and the Christos had a van full of 10 engines all breathed on by rocket, and they had hired a number of quick lads including their boys to test all the engines and keep the cream of the crop. This is at 8 years old, the van probably had 15k worth of 60cc engines in the back of it. Not a story of cheating but unfair nontheless.

Me and my old man remember hearing one of the dad's moaning at jenson buttons old fella (rocket engines) "you've not done the fking skirts on this one"... Shouldn't be doing anything to the skirts. Also recall seeing a very blingy gold con rod in a comer motor when they took the barrel off after a seize, must have been gold nitrided. There was also various stories of people using tyre softener, av gas etc etc ... Unfortunately Motorsport is riddled with bent bds, and it's often the people with bags of money too. Some people will really go to any extent to win.

The formula I race in now (750MC Sports 1000) is very good but you still hear people come out with stuff like "got a really strong engine from XYZ" .. I'm like riiiight, how strong, given all the engines should be completely standard, they ought to all be much of a muchness.

It's one of those things you've just got to be aware of but not let it ruin racing for you, or you just wind up believing literally everyone around you is cheating.

Edited by Yazza54 on Thursday 13th August 23:05