RE: Sprinting & Hillclimbing

[davenorman555]

kevp - not sure about camping as I only live about 15mls away I will be driving to & from both days. Have you checked the Wiscombe Park website? Honiton town is nearby as is Seaton, Sidmouth & Ottery St Mary so you'll find camping or B&B easy enough if none available on site. Its a lovely place but I have heard varied reports about driving it - marmite hill I think by the sound of it!!!

[davenorman555]

The Clio is finally fighting fit! Powerflex Gearbox/Engine mount now fitted & Toyo T1-R's now fitted on front, just needs the seat cable fitting (correct one arrived today hopefully!) & it should be A1 EXCEPT I do still need a front splitter if anybody can help me with this...?

[Dan Friel]

Just wondering why you're fitting 1A tyres rather than 1B (which all road going classes now now permit)??

[davenorman555]

Dan, car is mainly roadgoing, spoke to K-Tec Racing & they suggested using T1's - I'm on a steep learning curve at the moment so all advice/suggestions gratefully received! Have just bought a full set of spare wheels so maybe I could have List B tyres on those & swap for events?

[Dan Friel]

And that's the problem with hillclimb classes at the moment. If you use the car on the road and can't afford a second set then you can't be competitive. Not very attractive to the newcomer.. What events are you planning??

[SClarke]

Dan Friel said:

And that's the problem with hillclimb classes at the moment. If you use the car on the road and can't afford a second set then you can't be competitive. Not very attractive to the newcomer.. What events are you planning??

But Dan, is this a realistic expectation to have? There really aren't very many speed based motorsports where your road car can be competitive.

I would argue that if you are indeed correct and a set of spare wheels with sticky 1b tyres would make your road car competitive then this is actually quite a cost effective way of entering motorsport since the alternative is to have an competition car just for events.

[andye30m3]

SClarke said:

Dan Friel said:

And that's the problem with hillclimb classes at the moment. If you use the car on the road and can't afford a second set then you can't be competitive. Not very attractive to the newcomer.. What events are you planning??

But Dan, is this a realistic expectation to have? There really aren't very many speed based motorsports where your road car can be competitive.

I would argue that if you are indeed correct and a set of spare wheels with sticky 1b tyres would make your road car competitive then this is actually quite a cost effective way of entering motorsport since the alternative is to have an competition car just for events.

I agree with Dan on this, I can't see what using list 1B tyres will add as far and enjoyment or competition.

I've probably spent £7-800 on tyres and spare wheels in order to run list 1B for sprints and 1A as every day tyres, The standard production class offered a very cheap way into motorsport, having to buy a second set of wheel and tyres accounts for over 50% of the money I spent last year doing a full seasons of sprinting. I'm now not even sure I want to use them on the airfields as they'll suffer with very quick tyre wear.

I did my first season last year and the additional £800 at the beginning may well have put me off ever starting and I'm sure I'm not alone

I'm not sure it's the best way for the road going classes to go, as with all sports sprinting needs to constantly attract new competitors, I'm sure the standard production class is the easiest way to do this and therefor should be kept as cheap as possible to get the maximum number of people to have a go and keep the sport going.

Next year should be interesting as I'm told many if not all list 1B tyres will not be available for sale in the uk as road tyres, not sure but expect they'll remain for sale as trackday / motorsport tyres. so I assume the road going classes will be back on list 1A?

[davenorman555]

blimey what a hornets nest! I have purchased a spare set of wheels with the intention of keeping 2 as spares (Clio Cup doesn't come with a spare at all!) & selling the other 2 on - maybe I should think about a road set & a set for events but as some of you have pointed out that starts to get expensive especially when you're new & have just shelled out on car/overalls/license etc etc. I have had a friend suggest that we share a drive in a Westfield next season - does anybody have experience of sharing cars? I can imagine there are a number of potential pitfalls that may outweigh the obvious cost saving of sharing?

[davenorman555]

Dan Friel said:

And that's the problem with hillclimb classes at the moment. If you use the car on the road and can't afford a second set then you can't be competitive. Not very attractive to the newcomer.. What events are you planning??

1st event is Wiscombe Park next weekend (24th & 25th) then hoping to do Mamhead, Gurston & a few Sprints but as stated I am new to this & have a lot to learn, I also need to bring the car home from the 1st event in 1 piece! Hoping to do 8-10 events this season then decide what to do next season when I know a little more.

[Dan Friel]

SClarke said:

There really aren't very many speed based motorsports where your road car can be competitive.

But sprinting and hillclimbing is one area where they should be. It's real grass roots. Agree totally with Andy's post. For the number of events that i may plan to do (and the time you get on the track), i can't justify the cost of extra wheels / tyres. Might as well go do some track days..

Edited by Dan Friel on Saturday 17th April 19:23

[SClarke]

Well chaps I hope you all have fun 1b tyres or no 1b tyres! (for the record it wasn't me who brought it up!).

It's more fun being the underdog anyway

Wiscombe only a week away!

[eglf]

Can anyone with MSA connections find out why the MSA changed the rule to allow List 1B tyres to be used in the road going classes?.

[SClarke]

Car is ready to roll (including some fancy new 1b tyres lol!)

[onomatopoeia]

eglf said:

Can anyone with MSA connections find out why the MSA changed the rule to allow List 1B tyres to be used in the road going classes?.

They didn't. The categories in the book were always "recommended" rather than mandatory. When they were made mandatory account had to be taken of what was actually happening at events. Not all championships used 1A, the ASWMC always ran to what amounted to "radial and road legal" in roadgoing classes and incidentally has the most well supported speed event championships in the country. Unsuprisingly there was considerable opposition to 1A being forced on championships that didn't currently use it.

Some new cars are not supplied with 1A tyres, some older cars can't get 1A tyres in the standard size.

[eglf]

onomatopoeia said:

eglf said:

Can anyone with MSA connections find out why the MSA changed the rule to allow List 1B tyres to be used in the road going classes?.

They didn't. The categories in the book were always "recommended" rather than mandatory. When they were made mandatory account had to be taken of what was actually happening at events. Not all championships used 1A, the ASWMC always ran to what amounted to "radial and road legal" in roadgoing classes and incidentally has the most well supported speed event championships in the country. Unsuprisingly there was considerable opposition to 1A being forced on championships that didn't currently use it.

Some new cars are not supplied with 1A tyres, some older cars can't get 1A tyres in the standard size.

Ok then way not just leave them recommended.

[onomatopoeia]

eglf said:

onomatopoeia said:

eglf said:

Can anyone with MSA connections find out why the MSA changed the rule to allow List 1B tyres to be used in the road going classes?.

They didn't. The categories in the book were always "recommended" rather than mandatory. When they were made mandatory account had to be taken of what was actually happening at events. Not all championships used 1A, the ASWMC always ran to what amounted to "radial and road legal" in roadgoing classes and incidentally has the most well supported speed event championships in the country. Unsuprisingly there was considerable opposition to 1A being forced on championships that didn't currently use it.

Some new cars are not supplied with 1A tyres, some older cars can't get 1A tyres in the standard size.

Ok then way not just leave them recommended.

The categories had to go mandatory as events and championships were effectively inventing categories, for example by allowing cars fitted with the wrong engine (e.g. Vauxhall or Millington engined Mk2 Escorts) or wrong transmission (Ford didn't make many RWD Mk3 Escorts, I saw some running in roadgoing though) to run in roadgoing when they should be in sports libre - this is not stage rallying . Sports libre has more stringent safety equipment requirements than roadgoing and the consequence was that events were in turn inventing their own safety requirements as well. The MSA frowns on this, with good reason. I have heard that the potential insurance implications were huge.

None of this stops a championship running its roadgoing category to List 1A if it wants to. You start with the blue book definition then further restrict it to list 1A only. Additional restrictions are allowed, you couldn't run a one make championship if they weren't. What you can't do is relax any part of the category definition.

[eglf]

onomatopoeia said:

eglf said:

onomatopoeia said:

eglf said:

Can anyone with MSA connections find out why the MSA changed the rule to allow List 1B tyres to be used in the road going classes?.

They didn't. The categories in the book were always "recommended" rather than mandatory. When they were made mandatory account had to be taken of what was actually happening at events. Not all championships used 1A, the ASWMC always ran to what amounted to "radial and road legal" in roadgoing classes and incidentally has the most well supported speed event championships in the country. Unsuprisingly there was considerable opposition to 1A being forced on championships that didn't currently use it.

Some new cars are not supplied with 1A tyres, some older cars can't get 1A tyres in the standard size.

Ok then way not just leave them recommended.

The categories had to go mandatory as events and championships were effectively inventing categories, for example by allowing cars fitted with the wrong engine (e.g. Vauxhall or Millington engined Mk2 Escorts) or wrong transmission (Ford didn't make many RWD Mk3 Escorts, I saw some running in roadgoing though) to run in roadgoing when they should be in sports libre - this is not stage rallying . Sports libre has more stringent safety equipment requirements than roadgoing and the consequence was that events were in turn inventing their own safety requirements as well. The MSA frowns on this, with good reason. I have heard that the potential insurance implications were huge.

None of this stops a championship running its roadgoing category to List 1A if it wants to. You start with the blue book definition then further restrict it to list 1A only. Additional restrictions are allowed, you couldn't run a one make championship if they weren't. What you can't do is relax any part of the category definition.

Thanks for the info

[Dan Friel]

I don' think the above is correct. I understand that the msa has mandated the speed regs. Road going MUST run 1b. You could add another "standard" class and this is what the woolbridge mc has done.

Edited by Dan Friel on Monday 19th April 17:14

[CNHSS1]

Dan Friel said:

I don' think the above is correct. I understand that the msa has mandated the speed regs. Road going MUST run 1b. You could add another "standard" class and this is what the woolbridge mc has done.

Edited by Dan Friel on Monday 19th April 17:14

No, choice of List 1A or List 1B for Roadgoing. I think the confusion is where certain clubs and championships have decided to run on one or the other in Roadgoing, which i believe is still allowed under MSA regs, but both are actually 'legal' as it were for pure MSA classes

[Dan Friel]

Roadgoing classes must allow 1b. Msa has dictated this and several series regulations had to be revised after they were drafted.