Michael Schumacher & traction control...
Discussion
I'm sure that many people draw the line between 'innovation lateral thinking' and 'cheating' based on who they support and/or dislike for various other reasons, I draw your attention to the following Blackadder quote:
Darling: So you see, Blackadder, Field Marshal Haig is most anxious to eliminate all these German spies.
Melchett: Filthy Hun weasels fighting their dirty underhand war!
Darling: And, fortunately, one of *our* spies--
Melchett: Splendid fellows, brave heroes, risking life and limb for Blighty!
Darling: So you see, Blackadder, Field Marshal Haig is most anxious to eliminate all these German spies.
Melchett: Filthy Hun weasels fighting their dirty underhand war!
Darling: And, fortunately, one of *our* spies--
Melchett: Splendid fellows, brave heroes, risking life and limb for Blighty!
Conian said:
I'm sure that many people draw the line between 'innovation lateral thinking' and 'cheating' based on who they support and/or dislike for various other reasons, I draw your attention to the following Blackadder quote:
Darling: So you see, Blackadder, Field Marshal Haig is most anxious to eliminate all these German spies.
Melchett: Filthy Hun weasels fighting their dirty underhand war!
Darling: And, fortunately, one of *our* spies--
Melchett: Splendid fellows, brave heroes, risking life and limb for Blighty!
I don't agree. As has been said, theres clever interpretation of the rules, even if its against the spirit of that rule - then theres balls out flouncing of the rules. There's a definite line between the two.Darling: So you see, Blackadder, Field Marshal Haig is most anxious to eliminate all these German spies.
Melchett: Filthy Hun weasels fighting their dirty underhand war!
Darling: And, fortunately, one of *our* spies--
Melchett: Splendid fellows, brave heroes, risking life and limb for Blighty!
LDN said:
I've been trying to work out how many championships Schuey has won with traction control and how many he has won without TC; does anyone know?
I know his first championship was won with traction control despite it being banned; a few teams had 'hidden' it and his car was one of them but I'm hazy; anyone have the offical stat on this?
Why should that matter?I know his first championship was won with traction control despite it being banned; a few teams had 'hidden' it and his car was one of them but I'm hazy; anyone have the offical stat on this?
He'd shown his exceptional talent by outdriving the 1992 Benetton that still had sequential shift and no fancy gizmos like TC.
IMHO a top driver is a top driver full stop. They will get the most of the car regardless.
Rules are made to be broken. The designers are no different to the drivers, they are on the limits of the rules and Benetton got away with it in 1994 because of Mad Max crazy witch hunt because Briatore was disrespectful of Max.
entropy said:
LDN said:
I've been trying to work out how many championships Schuey has won with traction control and how many he has won without TC; does anyone know?
I know his first championship was won with traction control despite it being banned; a few teams had 'hidden' it and his car was one of them but I'm hazy; anyone have the offical stat on this?
Why should that matter?I know his first championship was won with traction control despite it being banned; a few teams had 'hidden' it and his car was one of them but I'm hazy; anyone have the offical stat on this?
He'd shown his exceptional talent by outdriving the 1992 Benetton that still had sequential shift and no fancy gizmos like TC.
IMHO a top driver is a top driver full stop. They will get the most of the car regardless.
Rules are made to be broken. The designers are no different to the drivers, they are on the limits of the rules and Benetton got away with it in 1994 because of Mad Max crazy witch hunt because Briatore was disrespectful of Max.
LDN said:
Conian said:
I'm sure that many people draw the line between 'innovation lateral thinking' and 'cheating' based on who they support and/or dislike for various other reasons, I draw your attention to the following Blackadder quote:
Darling: So you see, Blackadder, Field Marshal Haig is most anxious to eliminate all these German spies.
Melchett: Filthy Hun weasels fighting their dirty underhand war!
Darling: And, fortunately, one of *our* spies--
Melchett: Splendid fellows, brave heroes, risking life and limb for Blighty!
I don't agree. As has been said, theres clever interpretation of the rules, even if its against the spirit of that rule - then theres balls out flouncing of the rules. There's a definite line between the two.Darling: So you see, Blackadder, Field Marshal Haig is most anxious to eliminate all these German spies.
Melchett: Filthy Hun weasels fighting their dirty underhand war!
Darling: And, fortunately, one of *our* spies--
Melchett: Splendid fellows, brave heroes, risking life and limb for Blighty!
Isn't this a bit like saying "it's OK to do 33mph in a 30zone...but 37mph is unacceptable" ?
Surely rules are put in place, so that anything within the rules is accpetable and anything outside of the rules, isn't acceptable? Otherwise the speed limits would be 33mph...
But the point I was trying to make, one way or another, is Schumacher himself can't be discredited because for his success because he had a superior car - be it legal, or illegal.
And Derek is right, the WDC is nonsense and doesn't determin who is the best driver, or team. It determins who wins the WDC...but it still strikes me as funny, if you flick through people of all knowledge and experience of F1 racing's top 10 ever driver list, it will most certaintly contain nearly ALL people who have won world championships.....
GTP rpm said:
LDN said:
Conian said:
I'm sure that many people draw the line between 'innovation lateral thinking' and 'cheating' based on who they support and/or dislike for various other reasons, I draw your attention to the following Blackadder quote:
Darling: So you see, Blackadder, Field Marshal Haig is most anxious to eliminate all these German spies.
Melchett: Filthy Hun weasels fighting their dirty underhand war!
Darling: And, fortunately, one of *our* spies--
Melchett: Splendid fellows, brave heroes, risking life and limb for Blighty!
I don't agree. As has been said, theres clever interpretation of the rules, even if its against the spirit of that rule - then theres balls out flouncing of the rules. There's a definite line between the two.Darling: So you see, Blackadder, Field Marshal Haig is most anxious to eliminate all these German spies.
Melchett: Filthy Hun weasels fighting their dirty underhand war!
Darling: And, fortunately, one of *our* spies--
Melchett: Splendid fellows, brave heroes, risking life and limb for Blighty!
Isn't this a bit like saying "it's OK to do 33mph in a 30zone...but 37mph is unacceptable" ?
Aside from the cheating, what has long puzzled me is why so little has been written or discussed surrounding Schummacher’s entry and rise to and in F1.
His early career was not dissimilar to Hamilton’s in that he comes from a fairly average, working class background but was picked up early by Mercedes who funded his and two other Germans (Frentzen and one other, can’t remember his name) rise through the ranks.
Mercedes had at the time, this vision of creating a German super race – sorry – “team” and saw these drivers as central to this aim with Frentzen actually being rated the fastest of the three of them at the time. He was supposed to drive for Jordan until the end of the season before being placed in the team that would allow Mercedes to enter as a major player (Sauber IIRC).
Him defecting to Benetton would be the same as Hamilton starting his F1 career with Ferrari having been bankrolled for 10 years + by McLaren.
It has come full circle of course but not before Benetton and Ferrari chewed him up and got the best flavour out of him!
His early career was not dissimilar to Hamilton’s in that he comes from a fairly average, working class background but was picked up early by Mercedes who funded his and two other Germans (Frentzen and one other, can’t remember his name) rise through the ranks.
Mercedes had at the time, this vision of creating a German super race – sorry – “team” and saw these drivers as central to this aim with Frentzen actually being rated the fastest of the three of them at the time. He was supposed to drive for Jordan until the end of the season before being placed in the team that would allow Mercedes to enter as a major player (Sauber IIRC).
Him defecting to Benetton would be the same as Hamilton starting his F1 career with Ferrari having been bankrolled for 10 years + by McLaren.
It has come full circle of course but not before Benetton and Ferrari chewed him up and got the best flavour out of him!
FourWheelDrift said:
And according to F1 journo Joe Saward after Senna was taken out by Hakkinen early on in the race he stayed track-side to listen to the cars, on returning to the Williams pits his opinion was the Benetton's were illegal.
I've never bought that one. It's not possible for one man to stand in the middle of a circuit while there's either a race or a practice session going on, and be the only man within the entire circuit who can hear traction control.That just isn't possible.
heebeegeetee said:
FourWheelDrift said:
And according to F1 journo Joe Saward after Senna was taken out by Hakkinen early on in the race he stayed track-side to listen to the cars, on returning to the Williams pits his opinion was the Benetton's were illegal.
I've never bought that one. It's not possible for one man to stand in the middle of a circuit while there's either a race or a practice session going on, and be the only man within the entire circuit who can hear traction control.That just isn't possible.
sjtscott said:
This brought back some memories of that season, just read all the events Benetton were 'involved' or 'accused' off that year.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Formula_One_chea...
I note it fails to mention Schuie driving Hill off the track at Adelaide to win the title by 1 point though.
that wiki article reads like the tech regs of '94 were designed to hammer Williams.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Formula_One_chea...
I note it fails to mention Schuie driving Hill off the track at Adelaide to win the title by 1 point though.
superkartracer said:
He was only a 10th off the fastest time in sector one on Sunday, when they get the car sorted he'll be at the top...
Laughed? I nearly shat!I haven't had so much fun since he smashed his leg
or Hakkinen stuffed him up the inside of Zonta at the Spa GP.
He is a miserable sinner, a filthy cheating kraut.
Arrrrrryyyyton!
With apologies to D&C
mattikake said:
Possibly all of the WDC's had some element of TC, but an oficial stat is probably unlikely as this was all unofficial! The FIA gave up on the ban in er... 2002 IIRC... because it was impossible to police. You know this means many teams were running some form of it or another.
As I see it, Schumi's all-conquering driving style was based around TC. Without it, he was fast, but not 'all-conquering' as per 1992 and 1993, especially when comparing wet weather performances with perhaps only 2 good drives out of 7 wet races. (7 wins out of 11 in 'official' TC times in the wet). A considerable difference in form. And TC is obviously more significant in the wet...
Absolute waffle.As I see it, Schumi's all-conquering driving style was based around TC. Without it, he was fast, but not 'all-conquering' as per 1992 and 1993, especially when comparing wet weather performances with perhaps only 2 good drives out of 7 wet races. (7 wins out of 11 in 'official' TC times in the wet). A considerable difference in form. And TC is obviously more significant in the wet...
It's a misconception TC benefits in the wet - up to point but TC will never stop a car from aquaplaning.
B192 had no fancy gizmos and he still won a race in changing conditions!
Bedazzled said:
Hear hear. Most of the other cheats from the Benetton 'crazy gang' (Schuey, Briatore, Symonds, etc) have been found out but I'm amazed mud hasn't stuck to Ross Brawn as he was technical director while all this was going on. The stories are well known, illegal TC, illegal ride height, running underweight using fuel ballast, increasing the fuel rig flow rate, even adding lead ballast to Schuey's helmet after races. I'm sure there's plenty more too. I'm glad it's catching up with them but sadly it doesn't change the stats.
IMHO this year has done a lot to expose Schumacher's reliance on having an advantage but at the end of the day it also spoils the memories of those supposed great victories which I watched in awe at the time. Was he ever that great? What would his reputation be if he had won 3-4 championships fairly? Could he have beaten Senna? We were certainly robbed of an epic battle there.
Absolutely nailed it. The truth will all leak out eventually, through the memoirs of retired drivers, designers and engineers who will corroborate all his personal and team based shennanagins.Get someone to make a you Tube of all the times he has driven or attempted to drive people off the road and the picture will be complete. IMHO this year has done a lot to expose Schumacher's reliance on having an advantage but at the end of the day it also spoils the memories of those supposed great victories which I watched in awe at the time. Was he ever that great? What would his reputation be if he had won 3-4 championships fairly? Could he have beaten Senna? We were certainly robbed of an epic battle there.
A legacy that even Tony Blair would recognise as tainted beyond redemption.
CiderwithCerbie said:
superkartracer said:
He was only a 10th off the fastest time in sector one on Sunday, when they get the car sorted he'll be at the top...
Laughed? I nearly shat!I haven't had so much fun since he smashed his leg
or Hakkinen stuffed him up the inside of Zonta at the Spa GP.
He is a miserable sinner, a filthy cheating kraut.
Arrrrrryyyyton!
With apologies to D&C
, he's still fast sadly.10 Pence Short said:
heebeegeetee said:
FourWheelDrift said:
And according to F1 journo Joe Saward after Senna was taken out by Hakkinen early on in the race he stayed track-side to listen to the cars, on returning to the Williams pits his opinion was the Benetton's were illegal.
I've never bought that one. It's not possible for one man to stand in the middle of a circuit while there's either a race or a practice session going on, and be the only man within the entire circuit who can hear traction control.That just isn't possible.
Who could anyone complain to? The FIA? The stewards? I can see that being a popular option. If you create a fuss you could get fined $100,000,000 I'm told. Stick your head above the parapet and you could get heavily penalised for letting a car overtake you. Unless, of course, it is your own team mate.
The media - the TV and the periodicals - just ignored it. Let's not creat a fuss. Stories of superhuman ability in the rain and when cornering, not to mention being able to make up dozens of places on the grid, are so much easier to write and there's little chance of 'problems'. It's a wonder they didn't mention the carrots he ate to improve his eyesight.
The histories still say how great were MS' starts were throughout the season despite him being removed from the results. And these are books!
Still, poor show from the media. I mean, it wasn't as if their pitpasses were at risk if they did something to upset the hierachy. Oh, hold on . . . Well poor example.
The enquiry into the Benetton fire was a watershed. It was one very clear statement of power. The message was by way of example and not a threat, always the most constraining.
Senna, the name in F1, brought it up and absolutely nothing was done. Fair enough, there were other reasons but it was just ignored.
It is just so definite. Benetton cheated all the time.
People express shock at the Pakistan cricket scandal (or the latest one anyway) and now we have further revellations on Bloodgate. Quins used to be 'my' team but there's no way I can support them now. But I'd put F1 near the top. We have no idea what went on.
I used to work with a much decorate intelligence bloke from the days of Britain in Aden. Whilst he used subtle and very clever techniques in questioning suspects he said that an effective way of terrying suspects into telling the truth is a calculated demonstration of power. A completely unexpected slap around the face, a punch - nothing much in the general run of things - when in a crowd of officers shows that you have absolute and total control over them. The Benetton fire enquiry was just that.
Look at me, I can ignore the most dangerous bit of cheating ever in the history of F1. I made it go away. Now, what is it you wanted to complain about?
If the livlihood of your magazine depended on your pitpasses what would you do? Run a four page expose or eulogise the favoured one?
We were told at the time, and many times since, how great the FIA (but personalised of course) was by bringing in the safety features after Ratzenberger's and Senna's deaths. I mean, after. No one methioned the flawed logic there. OK, so it was a very dangerous time for F1 and its existence was at risk so rocking the boat was a no-no but even now people who know what actually occurred suggest it was a success story.
superkartracer said:
CiderwithCerbie said:
superkartracer said:
He was only a 10th off the fastest time in sector one on Sunday, when they get the car sorted he'll be at the top...
Laughed? I nearly shat!I haven't had so much fun since he smashed his leg
or Hakkinen stuffed him up the inside of Zonta at the Spa GP.
He is a miserable sinner, a filthy cheating kraut.
Arrrrrryyyyton!
With apologies to D&C
, he's still fast sadly.LDN said:
Sorry but not sure I follow all of that... however, I get the jist. I don't doubt MS's ability but I was trying to establish how many drivers championships MS had won without traction control; the answer is seemingly 'none'. Like I've said before, I want to see Mercedes do well so I'm not here to bash - it was just a point that I was discussing with a friend.
Then what is your point?Why should TC demean his 'worth'? It's all very having it but you need the whole car package as well as top drivers.
Ferrari had TC in 1994 and they weren't exactly fighting for the WDC.
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